Were not as good a drafting team as everyone thinks

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-27-2017, 11:03 AM)bengals67 Wrote: our team philosophy is schizophrenic.

We don't want to sign free agents , want comp picks, and want to build through the draft

But our coaching staff does not want to play rookies.

A lot of the problem with our draft choices is that they do not get to play.

I think "building through the draft" is code for we want as many rookies as possible because under the new CBA we can substantially limit our payroll

Most of this is true but the coaches have to be able to coach up the rookies or young players before they
should get to play. Boyd played last year, so did Core and both were decent. I don't find this to be a coincidence
being who their position coach is.

Fisher played some his rookie year and played decent before last year when we started Og who played terrible
and then Fisher played bad. Not a coincidence being who their position coach is...

(02-27-2017, 08:36 PM)phil413 Wrote: I hope you're racking up the rep for this one.  Not that it leads to wins, but Cincy's recent drafts have drawn praise from A LOT of the media, some of them credible.  They went from technically sound, skilled, driven players like Geno and Whitworth to a specific template recently.  It's like they're saying give me an athlete with large dimensions and we will trust our staff to coach them up.  We take freakish DE's, interior players that lift record amounts and skill players that the staff talks up to fill voids.  Okay, none of that happened.  We blame the staff a lot, but since they've been counting on them recently we need to hold them more accountable.  This isn't an absolute, but I think we've been drafting descent players and not developing them. 

So just like the Whit and Geno examples before, there was a time when you locked both of them up because they panned out.  Now you're not locking guys up fast enough AND you aren't coaching up the alternatives to take their spots when you're apathetic about them either way finding an offer to match or leaving.  No matter who really makes the decisions, until they hold Marvin and his staff accountable then drafting players with holes this inept staff can't fix is senseless.  The best thing about this draft is Marvin doesn't have a deal.  Bitter or not, that's where we're at. 

[fredtoast]

(02-25-2017, 06:44 PM)Housh Wrote:  We DONT pay our own as often as people think. We pay the undeniable superstars that people would riot over if we didn't resign but we let a lot of good players WALK for NOTHING. Good teams don't do that as often as we do flat out. Mike Brown is CHEAP and doesn't get called out enough for it by fans.

1.  Please list all of the "good players" we let walk for nothing.

2.  If no other teams ever let their good players leave in free agency then why are there always good players on the market?

The fact is that the list of good players that have left the Bengals in free agency is very very slim.  I can only think of about 5 in the last decade....Joseph, Johnson, Sanu, Jones, and Nelson.  Who else am I missing?

3.  Mike Brown has spent over the league salary cap the last two years and does not get enough credit for this from the fans.

[fredtoast]

(02-28-2017, 05:51 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Fisher played some his rookie year and played decent before last year when we started Og who played terrible
and then Fisher played bad. Not a coincidence being who their position coach is...

You mean the guy who had never had a single high draft pick flop in over 20 years as our O-line coach?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-01-2017, 02:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You mean the guy who had never had a single high draft pick flop in over 20 years as our O-line coach?

*cough* Cedric Ogbuehi *cough*

[fredtoast]

(03-01-2017, 03:28 PM)Wyche Wrote: *cough* Cedric Ogbuehi *cough*

I was talking about before Ogbuehi and Fisher.

But I seem to remember you have a coughing fit over Andre Smith being a bust after his second year also.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-01-2017, 04:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I was talking about before Ogbuehi and Fisher.

But I seem to remember you have a coughing fit over Andre Smith being a bust after his second year also.

Shouldn't Andre Smith be considered a flop given he was selected 6th overall? He was solid, but was never consistently dominant like Anderson, Jones, Steinbach, Whitworth, or even Zeitler.

Also, what's considered a high pick? Just rounds 1 and 2?
Since 1995, here are the first and second round OL:
Willie Anderson
Levi Jones
Eric Steinbach
Andrew Whitworth
Andre Smith
Kevin Zeitler
Cedric Ogbuehi
Jake Fisher

If we're including the third round, what about OL Melvin Tuten (1995), Ken Blackman (1996), Mike Goff (1998)? I don't really remember them because while I occasionally watched in the 90's, I didn't start paying much attention until 2001 (high school). But I don't ever hear these OL mentioned as being really good OL.

Besides, for me, a good position coach is better gauged over what he can get out of mid-late round picks, not having good first and second round players. Look at all the poor centers that were drafted. Anthony Collins never earned a true starting spot in Cincinnati and was a disaster when he went to TB to become a starter. Stacy Andrews, Scott Kooistra, Otis Hudson, Reggie Stephens, Tanner Hawkinson, Reid Fragel...all bad.

[kevin]

(02-25-2017, 06:44 PM)Housh Wrote: We build through the draft, ignore free agency and play the cheap game when it comes to resigning our young talent. The Mike Brown model indeed works. If you have knockout drafts every couple of years. When I say knockout drafts I mean you drafted 4 starters in that draft.

With all this said I think its surprising how bad weve gotten at drafting over the past couple years. in 2008 and 2009 we drafted 5 guys each who stayed near the top of whatever team's depth charts they were on. That's great drafting. Your getting consistent talent.

2010 we drafted 4 guys who had the talent to be high on any team's depth chart. Once again great drafting. We lost Jordan Shipley to injuries but he had talent. You cant consider Shipley a failure in the draft department. The count is now 3 knockout drafts IN A FREAKING ROW. WOW. We would piggyback off these drafts for years to come. Heres something funny as well. In true "We pay our own" fashion of those 14 great players we drafted only 3 are currently signed to the team today.

In 2011 I don't even have to say anything about AJ and Andy but we also got Boling. So that's 3 guys who we hit on.

2012 we got lucky. We hit on 5 freaking starters. And all 5 are really really good. In true Mike Brown "we pay our own" fashion its possible that by the time we kickoff the 2017 only one of those guys is on the team due to free agency. Mike Brown lies to our face and people don't care. We DONT pay our own as often as people think. We pay the undeniable superstars that people would riot over if we didn't resign but we let a lot of good players WALK for NOTHING. Good teams don't do that as often as we do flat out. Mike Brown is CHEAP and doesn't get called out enough for it by fans.

This is where it gets painful. In 2013 we drafted only 2 good players and only one starter in Eifert. What makes that draft worse is we had an extra 2nd and an extra 6th and 7th. Jury is still out on Rex Burkhead and the lineman we drafted but as of now I can only count Gio and Eifert as hits. For only signing 1 concrete starter this draft is a BUST.

 In 2014 we drafted 1 starter. Jury is still out on Dennard, McCarron and Clarke. But as of now only Jeremy Hill can be named as a hit from that draft. Seeing that that's the draft we drafted Bodine I seriously want to call that draft a NO HIT bust but im going to give Hill his respect.
 
2015 was one of the worst Bengals drafts of the last 20 years. That one is definitely a NO HIT bust draft. No starters. Quite possibly that draft may not even have any guys who BECOME starters later down the line.

Finally in 2016 we drafted Boyd and William Jackson III. If Boyd hadn't stepped up and played decent without AJ thatd be a 2nd NO HIT bust draft in a row. That draft still didn't produce any starters but at least it gave us some talent like Vigil and others. As of now by the standard I set to start this thread this draft is a bust. But please understand that I realize you cant really call a draft class a bust until after a couple years. Boyd and William Jackson III could very well be starters or us even next year.






So what does all this info tell you. One it tells you Mr. We pay our own has no problem with letting drafted talent walk to save a few bucks. It also tells you weve been feeding off the glory of 3 good drafts for nearly a decade. It also tells you the last 3 years of drafts have been HORRIBLE and a direct reason why the teams morale has been on a downward spiral. Its all fine and dandy to ignore free agency when your drafting guys like Dunlap and AJ Green. But when those drafts stop hitting things turn BAD, like what they are now in Bengal Land.




So in conclusion the Mike Brown model works, if you have a knockout draft every 4 to 5 years. Or have 2 or 3 in a row. But even when you catch lightning in a bottle and do it, Mikey wont resign the talent we do get anyway. Who would wanna be this man's coach? Why do we roll all this money over year to year for again?

Can I add the hit we are going to take on the draft where we took Kirkpatrick and Zeitler in round one and Still in round two...If we lose both Kirkpatrick and Zeitler to free agency and Still long gone, this becomes just an awful draft. It also kills the extra pick we got for Carson Palmer. 

No play-off wins since Paul Brown died.  Pretty good indication the apple or acorn fell too far from the tree going from Paul Brown to Mike Brown.  No, we are not the worlds great draft pick team, far from it.  Probably the most bonehead move was Mike Ditka offering the Bengals every Saints pick plus pick in round one the next year, so he could move up and get Rickey Williams. The Bengals who were so awful and needed picks like an expansion team should have been all over this. Instead The Bungles said no and drafted The One, The Only, Akili Smith.  The late 1990's and early 2000 BUNGLES could have really used all these picks.  Nobody will ever offer the Bengals again what Ditka offered,  and they weren't even smart enough to make the deal. ....Lets not forget the Bengals had no scouts back then.  Once they drafted Akili Smith they found out in camp work outs he stunk.  Just terrible habits and throwing motion and form and not close to being an NFL QB......To this day the Bengals have few scouts.  The Steelers draft a lot better than the Bengals, and it shows. 

So again, we are close to saying good-bye to Kirkpatrick, Zeitler and Still who is already gone. That makes that a bad draft due to Bengals too cheap to pay anybody. What good are these drafts if you aren't going to let them become veterans on your team. You know what fielding rookies gets you, no play-off wins since Paul Brown died. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-01-2017, 06:03 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Shouldn't Andre Smith be considered a flop given he was selected 6th overall? He was solid, but was never consistently dominant like Anderson, Jones, Steinbach, Whitworth, or even Zeitler.

Also, what's considered a high pick? Just rounds 1 and 2?
Since 1995, here are the first and second round OL:
Willie Anderson
Levi Jones
Eric Steinbach
Andrew Whitworth
Andre Smith
Kevin Zeitler
Cedric Ogbuehi
Jake Fisher

If we're including the third round, what about OL Melvin Tuten (1995), Ken Blackman (1996), Mike Goff (1998)? I don't really remember them because while I occasionally watched in the 90's, I didn't start paying much attention until 2001 (high school). But I don't ever hear these OL mentioned as being really good OL.

Besides, for me, a good position coach is better gauged over what he can get out of mid-late round picks, not having good first and second round players. Look at all the poor centers that were drafted. Anthony Collins never earned a true starting spot in Cincinnati and was a disaster when he went to TB to become a starter. Stacy Andrews, Scott Kooistra, Otis Hudson, Reggie Stephens, Tanner Hawkinson, Reid Fragel...all bad.

Good point about Dre and all of the rest here....and he left Evan Mathis on the bench.

[kevin]

(03-01-2017, 06:37 PM)Wyche Wrote: Good point about Dre and all of the rest here....and he left Evan Mathis on the bench.

I'll go back to Big Daddy Wilkenson and Ki-Jana Carter, who never lived up to being the number one pick in the NFL.  Often people say Big Dad wasn't bad.  I will say Bengals blew it when you look at all the other players they could have taken in that draft.  Collinsworth before the draft said take Marshall Faulk, not Big Dad.  Collinsworth was 100 % correct. .....So, even if Bengals would get a top pick some year, the Bengals have made some lousy picks up high in their history.  Jack Thompson stands out as a dumb pick, especially looking at Joe Montana and others in the same draft. Whatever Bengals look at in combines, they need to stop it. They really need to hire some scouts.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-01-2017, 06:53 PM)kevin Wrote: I'll go back to Big Daddy Wilkenson and Ki-Jana Carter, who never lived up to being the number one pick in the NFL.  Often people say Big Dad wasn't bad.  I will say Bengals blew it when you look at all the other players they could have taken in that draft.  Collinsworth before the draft said take Marshall Faulk, not Big Dad.  Collinsworth was 100 % correct. .....So, even if Bengals would get a top pick some year, the Bengals have made some lousy picks up high in their history.  Jack Thompson stands out as a dumb pick, especially looking at Joe Montana and others in the same draft.  Whatever Bengals look at in combines, they need to stop it. They really need to hire some scouts.

Oh....I hear what you're selling....and I remember those eff ups well.  We were just referring to PAs "prowess". The draft day failures of Mike Clown are the stuff of legend.

[*Go Cards*]

We had a lot of success when Gruden was selecting offensive players.

Other than that we have whiffed too much and been pedestrian with a few solo home runs mixed in now and again

[McC]

(03-01-2017, 04:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I was talking about before Ogbuehi and Fisher.

But I seem to remember you have a coughing fit over Andre Smith being a bust after his second year also.

Smith wasn't exactly a bust be he wasn't overwhelming either.  He was so-so.  Not #6 worthy, by any means.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-01-2017, 04:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I was talking about before Ogbuehi and Fisher.

But I seem to remember you have a coughing fit over Andre Smith being a bust after his second year also.

Meh, I had just joined the boards during his 2nd year....around October.  I'm pretty sure I never called him a bust, but more like DreK, didn't feel he had played up to his draft position.


Dre never played like he had never seen a football field before.  Of course, I don't recall Piano Man pounding on a table to get Smith either.....hmmmm.   

[Interceptor]

No matter who we get in any draft or obtain from free agency, it has been already proven many times over that we are not going to win with this coaching staff and management.

[fredtoast]

(03-01-2017, 06:03 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Besides, for me, a good position coach is better gauged over what he can get out of mid-late round picks, not having good first and second round players. Look at all the poor centers that were drafted. Anthony Collins never earned a true starting spot in Cincinnati and was a disaster when he went to TB to become a starter. Stacy Andrews, Scott Kooistra, Otis Hudson, Reggie Stephens, Tanner Hawkinson, Reid Fragel...all bad.

Clint Boling....4th round...solid starter
Kyle Cooke....undrafted free agent...solid starter (often mentioned among "Pro bowl snubs")
Stacy Andrews....4th round....got a $40 million free agent contract (in 2009 dollars)
Nate Livings....undrafted free agent...got a $19 million contract in free agency (in 2012 dollars)
Anthony Collins...4th round....got a $30 million contract in free agency (in 2014)

And the proof of how good PA is as a coach is looking at how many of these players performed under other O-line coaches after they earned big money contracts and left the Bengals.

[fredtoast]

(03-01-2017, 06:37 PM)Wyche Wrote: and he left Evan Mathis on the bench.

He started Mathis ahead of Livings in '09 until Evan got injured.

In 2010 Mathis did not deserve to start.  He fat and out of shape.  That is why he had to settle for a veteran minimum contract in free agency despite every team having film of his 22 career starts.

When Evan arrive in Cincy he had been released twice and was on his third team in 2 years.  With just one year of PAs coaching he was considered one of the best OTs in the league.

[Hammerstripes]

As the experts say, you can't judge a draft for 3 years.

That being said, let's hope things improve.

IF, and its a major IF, Fisher and Ced improve by leaps and bounds, then that draft looks pretty good.

Last year's draft has the potential to be a pretty good one if Billings and Jackson are healthy and productive.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-02-2017, 06:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Clint Boling....4th round...solid starter
Kyle Cooke....undrafted free agent...solid starter (often mentioned among "Pro bowl snubs")
Stacy Andrews....4th round....got a $40 million free agent contract (in 2009 dollars)
Nate Livings....undrafted free agent...got a $19 million contract in free agency (in 2012 dollars)
Anthony Collins...4th round....got a $30 million contract in free agency (in 2014)

And the proof of how good PA is as a coach is looking at how many of these players performed under other O-line coaches after they earned big money contracts and left the Bengals.

Most of those players weren't that good here either. Livings was a turnstile....what Dallas was thinking is beyond me. Collins was serviceable....Tampa reached and failed.  oSome of these guys were masked by upper level talent around them. Boling.....I've already shown you numerous times that he was rated as one of the best guards in his class....and projected as high as the 2nd round going into the draft....and provided links.  Cook had one decent year.....and was a big reason Palmer took a beating.  I don't recall pro bowl talk....but that's been a few moons ago.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-02-2017, 07:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: He started Mathis ahead of Livings in '09 until Evan got injured.

In 2010 Mathis did not deserve to start.  He fat and out of shape.  That is why he had to settle for a veteran minimum contract in free agency despite every team having film of his 22 career starts.

When Evan arrive in Cincy he had been released twice and was on his third team in 2 years.  With just one year of PAs coaching he was considered one of the best OTs in the league.

Fat and out of shape doesn't pass as an excuse....we see them start Hockaloogie every year...and he keeps swelling up.

[fredtoast]

(03-03-2017, 07:47 AM)Wyche Wrote:  Boling.....I've already shown you numerous times that he was rated as one of the best guards in his class....and projected as high as the 2nd round going into the draft....and provided links.

And I have provided links that show that those projections were wrong because he was taken in the fourth round.

(03-03-2017, 07:47 AM)Wyche Wrote:   Cook had one decent year.....and was a big reason Palmer took a beating.  I don't recall pro bowl talk

This just is not true at all

Pat Kirwan after the  2010 season had Cook ranked close to the top five at OC in the league. 
 http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8205178d/article/protect-and-serve-nfls-best-olinemen-come-in-all-forms

There are a number of young O-linemen close to the top 25, and by this time next year they should make the list. Keep an eye on Cleveland's Alex Mack, Cincinnati's Kyle Cook, Seattle's Russell Okung, New England's Sebastian Vollmer, St. Louis' Rodger Saffold, and Houston's Eric Winston.


Also Cook only allowed 4 sacks in his first 48 starts.  He was a good center.  Too many people are blinded by their hatred of Paul Alexander, so through "confirmation bias" they see every Bengal O-lineman as being bad.  And this just is not true.  Over and over again we see other NFL teams give good contracts to Bengal O-linemen, but apparently none of these NFL teams have any idea what they are doing.  Maybe they don't know that PA plays piano, because that is one of the big factors a lot of the haters use to insult his coaching ability. 

In fact some people are so obsessed with PA that they bring up his name in every single thread no matter even if it has nothing to do with the O-line.  It is kind of creepy.