Were not as good a drafting team as everyone thinks

[Housh]

We build through the draft, ignore free agency and play the cheap game when it comes to resigning our young talent. The Mike Brown model indeed works. If you have knockout drafts every couple of years. When I say knockout drafts I mean you drafted 4 starters in that draft.

With all this said I think its surprising how bad weve gotten at drafting over the past couple years. in 2008 and 2009 we drafted 5 guys each who stayed near the top of whatever team's depth charts they were on. That's great drafting. Your getting consistent talent.

2010 we drafted 4 guys who had the talent to be high on any team's depth chart. Once again great drafting. We lost Jordan Shipley to injuries but he had talent. You cant consider Shipley a failure in the draft department. The count is now 3 knockout drafts IN A FREAKING ROW. WOW. We would piggyback off these drafts for years to come. Heres something funny as well. In true "We pay our own" fashion of those 14 great players we drafted only 3 are currently signed to the team today.

In 2011 I don't even have to say anything about AJ and Andy but we also got Boling. So that's 3 guys who we hit on.

2012 we got lucky. We hit on 5 freaking starters. And all 5 are really really good. In true Mike Brown "we pay our own" fashion its possible that by the time we kickoff the 2017 only one of those guys is on the team due to free agency. Mike Brown lies to our face and people don't care. We DONT pay our own as often as people think. We pay the undeniable superstars that people would riot over if we didn't resign but we let a lot of good players WALK for NOTHING. Good teams don't do that as often as we do flat out. Mike Brown is CHEAP and doesn't get called out enough for it by fans.

This is where it gets painful. In 2013 we drafted only 2 good players and only one starter in Eifert. What makes that draft worse is we had an extra 2nd and an extra 6th and 7th. Jury is still out on Rex Burkhead and the lineman we drafted but as of now I can only count Gio and Eifert as hits. For only signing 1 concrete starter this draft is a BUST.

 In 2014 we drafted 1 starter. Jury is still out on Dennard, McCarron and Clarke. But as of now only Jeremy Hill can be named as a hit from that draft. Seeing that that's the draft we drafted Bodine I seriously want to call that draft a NO HIT bust but im going to give Hill his respect.
 
2015 was one of the worst Bengals drafts of the last 20 years. That one is definitely a NO HIT bust draft. No starters. Quite possibly that draft may not even have any guys who BECOME starters later down the line.

Finally in 2016 we drafted Boyd and William Jackson III. If Boyd hadn't stepped up and played decent without AJ thatd be a 2nd NO HIT bust draft in a row. That draft still didn't produce any starters but at least it gave us some talent like Vigil and others. As of now by the standard I set to start this thread this draft is a bust. But please understand that I realize you cant really call a draft class a bust until after a couple years. Boyd and William Jackson III could very well be starters or us even next year.






So what does all this info tell you. One it tells you Mr. We pay our own has no problem with letting drafted talent walk to save a few bucks. It also tells you weve been feeding off the glory of 3 good drafts for nearly a decade. It also tells you the last 3 years of drafts have been HORRIBLE and a direct reason why the teams morale has been on a downward spiral. Its all fine and dandy to ignore free agency when your drafting guys like Dunlap and AJ Green. But when those drafts stop hitting things turn BAD, like what they are now in Bengal Land.




So in conclusion the Mike Brown model works, if you have a knockout draft every 4 to 5 years. Or have 2 or 3 in a row. But even when you catch lightning in a bottle and do it, Mikey wont resign the talent we do get anyway. Who would wanna be this man's coach? Why do we roll all this money over year to year for again?

[bengalhoel]

(02-25-2017, 06:44 PM)Housh Wrote: We build through the draft, ignore free agency and play the cheap game when it comes to resigning our young talent. The Mike Brown model indeed works. If you have knockout drafts every couple of years. When I say knockout drafts I mean you drafted 4 starters in that draft.

With all this said I think its surprising how bad weve gotten at drafting over the past couple years. in 2008 and 2009 we drafted 5 guys each who stayed near the top of whatever team's depth charts they were on. That's great drafting. Your getting consistent talent.

2010 we drafted 4 guys who had the talent to be high on any team's depth chart. Once again great drafting. We lost Jordan Shipley to injuries but he had talent. You cant consider Shipley a failure in the draft department. The count is now 3 knockout drafts IN A FREAKING ROW. WOW. We would piggyback off these drafts for years to come. Heres something funny as well. In true "We pay our own" fashion of those 14 great players we drafted only 3 are currently signed to the team today.

In 2011 I don't even have to say anything about AJ and Andy but we also got Boling. So that's 3 guys who we hit on.

2012 we got lucky. We hit on 5 freaking starters. And all 5 are really really good. In true Mike Brown "we pay our own" fashion its possible that by the time we kickoff the 2017 only one of those guys is on the team due to free agency. Mike Brown lies to our face and people don't care. We DONT pay our own as often as people think. We pay the undeniable superstars that people would riot over if we didn't resign but we let a lot of good players WALK for NOTHING. Good teams don't do that as often as we do flat out. Mike Brown is CHEAP and doesn't get called out enough for it by fans.

This is where it gets painful. In 2013 we drafted only 2 good players and only one starter in Eifert. What makes that draft worse is we had an extra 2nd and an extra 6th and 7th. Jury is still out on Rex Burkhead and the lineman we drafted but as of now I can only count Gio and Eifert as hits. For only signing 1 concrete starter this draft is a BUST.

 In 2014 we drafted 1 starter. Jury is still out on Dennard, McCarron and Clarke. But as of now only Jeremy Hill can be named as a hit from that draft. Seeing that that's the draft we drafted Bodine I seriously want to call that draft a NO HIT bust but im going to give Hill his respect.
 
2015 was one of the worst Bengals drafts of the last 20 years. That one is definitely a NO HIT bust draft. No starters. Quite possibly that draft may not even have any guys who BECOME starters later down the line.

Finally in 2016 we drafted Boyd and William Jackson III. If Boyd hadn't stepped up and played decent without AJ thatd be a 2nd NO HIT bust draft in a row. That draft still didn't produce any starters but at least it gave us some talent like Vigil and others. As of now by the standard I set to start this thread this draft is a bust. But please understand that I realize you cant really call a draft class a bust until after a couple years. Boyd and William Jackson III could very well be starters or us even next year.






So what does all this info tell you. One it tells you Mr. We pay our own has no problem with letting drafted talent walk to save a few bucks. It also tells you weve been feeding off the glory of 3 good drafts for nearly a decade. It also tells you the last 3 years of drafts have been HORRIBLE and a direct reason why the teams morale has been on a downward spiral. Its all fine and dandy to ignore free agency when your drafting guys like Dunlap and AJ Green. But when those drafts stop hitting things turn BAD, like what they are now in Bengal Land.




So in conclusion the Mike Brown model works, if you have a knockout draft every 4 to 5 years. Or have 2 or 3 in a row. But even when you catch lightning in a bottle and do it, Mikey wont resign the talent we do get anyway. Who would wanna be this man's coach? Why do we roll all this money over year to year for again?

You make some good points in this breakdown but I am really hoping that W. Jackson and Billings can save this draft. Im also not read to give up on Ogbuehi and Fischer yet. I think that they are going to settle down and be productive.

[Housh]

(02-25-2017, 08:13 PM)bengalhoel Wrote: You make some good points in this breakdown but I am really hoping that W. Jackson and Billings can save this draft. Im also not read to give up on Ogbuehi and Fischer yet. I think that they are going to settle down and be productive.

Im really hoping he works out


mediocre teams failing in the first round is the recipe for long term struggles

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-25-2017, 08:13 PM)bengalhoel Wrote: You make some good points in this breakdown but I am really hoping that W. Jackson and Billings can save this draft. Im also not read to give up on Ogbuehi and Fischer yet. I think that they are going to settle down and be productive.

WJ3 and Billings i truly believe could be amazing. Jackson has great length, speed and ball skills for a CB.

Billings has the strength and deceiving athleticism you just don't find in most young DT's and is only 21 for God sake.

I might be a bit premature with Ogbuehi but if he doesn't have the fight to be great he never will be. Bust Og is IMO.

Fisher i think could be good.

Plus if Shawn doesn't play up to par Derron Smith will be breathing down his neck mark my words. Dude is a ballhawk.

Cody Core could be a great selection BTW.

[bengalhoel]

(02-25-2017, 08:20 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: WJ3 and Billings i truly believe could be amazing. Jackson has great length, speed and ball skills for a CB.

Billings has the strength and deceiving athleticism you just don't find in most young DT's and is only 21 for God sake.

I might be a bit premature with Ogbuehi but if he doesn't have the fight to be great he never will be. Bust Og is IMO.

Fisher i think could be good.

Plus if Shawn doesn't play up to par Derron Smith will be breathing down his neck mark my words. Dude is a ballhawk.

Cody Core could be a great selection BTW.

Yeah some of the blame for the rookies not being good right away has to fall on this coaching staff. It will take a couple of years before we really know on some of these guys because of Marvin doing his Dean Smith impression of not playing freshman.  (Not comparing Marvin to Dean Smith BTW)

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-25-2017, 08:26 PM)bengalhoel Wrote: Yeah some of the blame for the rookies not being good right away has to fall on this coaching staff. It will take a couple of years before we really know on some of these guys because of Marvin doing his Dean Smith impression of not playing freshman.  (Not comparing Marvin to Dean Smith BTW)

This is why i think Core could be special. Urban is a fine WR coach.

[BengalChris]

Eifert has proven to be half-a-starter due to his injury history.

Willie Jackson and Billings should both end up being starters, but I fear Billings is going to take another year to fully come back from that ACL.

Ogbuehi has proven he can't even come close to doing the job after two years. So sad that we selected an injured player in the 1st round. No confidence that he'll ever make it and no confidence in Alexander that he'll coach well enough for this to happen.

[seahawkscheat]

we stink!!!

[Housh]

(02-26-2017, 03:52 PM)seahawkscheat Wrote: we stink!!!

Were a average drafting team that saw unprecedented success because we managed to have 3 crazy drafts in a row. If we would've retained more of those players we would've been way better in the 10 year window we made for ourselves. But Mikey Boy got in the way at nearly every turn to "save a buck".


We aint had the best coaching or play but weve gotten in our own way plenty times in ML's run. If we had less financially strict ownership im confident we have not just 1 but ALOT of playoff wins in the last 10 years. Marvin Lewis sucks but hes not as bad as people think he is. When we had talented teams he had us playing league leading football.

[SunsetBengal]

(02-26-2017, 04:21 PM)Housh Wrote: Were a average drafting team that saw unprecedented success because we managed to have 3 crazy drafts in a row. If we would've retained more of those players we would've been way better in the 10 year window we made for ourselves. But Mikey Boy got in the way at nearly every turn to "save a buck".


We aint had the best coaching or play but weve gotten in our own way plenty times in ML's run. If we had less financially strict ownership im confident we have not just 1 but ALOT of playoff wins in the last 10 years. Marvin Lewis sucks but hes not as bad as people think he is. When we had talented teams he had us playing league leading football.

So, are you saying that we're due to hit the draft jackpot this year?

[*bengalfan74*]

Overall agree,

Like you say we had a good run few years back but have had some whiffs lately.

But I feel they have to nail this one like a ten pound sledge hammer on a finishing nail ! Because of MB's dumpster diving free agency.

[*Nately120*]

A Russell Wilson and an LA Kings avatar in this thread. What the fudge is going on?

[bengalsturntup926]

Thanks for the good post, I've been saying our drafts hasn't been good as people think. Our whole way of doing things is flawed.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-25-2017, 08:13 PM)bengalhoel Wrote: You make some good points in this breakdown but I am really hoping that W. Jackson and Billings can save this draft. Im also not read to give up on Ogbuehi and Fischer yet. I think that they are going to settle down and be productive.

I think Fisher might wind up being a serviceable T, but Ogbuehi looks lost out there.  Knowing his position coach, that doesn't bode well for him.

[bengals67]

our team philosophy is schizophrenic.

We don't want to sign free agents , want comp picks, and want to build through the draft

But our coaching staff does not want to play rookies.

A lot of the problem with our draft choices is that they do not get to play.

I think "building through the draft" is code for we want as many rookies as possible because under the new CBA we can substantially limit our payroll

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-27-2017, 11:03 AM)bengals67 Wrote: our team philosophy is schizophrenic.

We don't want to sign free agents , want comp picks, and want to build through the draft

But our coaching staff does not want to play rookies.

A lot of the problem with our draft choices is that they do not get to play.

I think "building through the draft" is code for we want as many rookies as possible because under the new CBA we can substantially limit our payroll

You know it.....gotta have that rollover money to watch our upper tier FAs leave town and overpay aging guys like Peko and Hockaloogie.

[Au165]

Even discussing this years draft is pointless as everyone will tell you it takes three years to rate a draft. From the sounds of it though Billings and Vigil will have shots to start next year and Boyd and Core will see a ton of snaps so that is a strong class, throw in WJ3 which is probably dependent on the next couple weeks and we may have 3-5 guys contributing from a class. That is about as good as you can ask for from a class.

The rest, we hit sometimes and we miss. I think people in general think a lot more drafted players work out than actually do.

[THE PISTONS]

(02-27-2017, 11:41 AM)Au165 Wrote: Even discussing this years draft is pointless as everyone will tell you it takes three years to rate a draft. From the sounds of it though Billings and Vigil will have shots to start next year and Boyd and Core will see a ton of snaps so that is a strong class, throw in WJ3 which is probably dependent on the next couple weeks and we may have 3-5 guys contributing from a class. That is about as good as you can ask for from a class.

The rest, we hit sometimes and we miss. I think people in general think a lot more drafted players work out than actually do.

I think that Boyd will be a pretty talented slot receiver when it's all said and done. Core should be no lower than a guy that comes in and stretches the field on 4 WR sets and possibly a #2 one day.

We'll see on Billings and Vigil. They have the tools to be good.

WJ3 was a really good CB prospect that draft analysts thought could play right away. Hopefully that's the case.

[*bengalfan74*]

(02-27-2017, 11:03 AM)bengals67 Wrote: our team philosophy is schizophrenic.

We don't want to sign free agents , want comp picks, and want to build through the draft

But our coaching staff does not want to play rookies.

A lot of the problem with our draft choices is that they do not get to play.

I think "building through the draft" is code for we want as many rookies as possible because under the new CBA we can substantially limit our payroll

Spot on bro ! 

This team is a cluster #$%^ of epic proportions ! 

[phil413]

(02-27-2017, 11:03 AM)bengals67 Wrote: our team philosophy is schizophrenic.

We don't want to sign free agents , want comp picks, and want to build through the draft

But our coaching staff does not want to play rookies.

A lot of the problem with our draft choices is that they do not get to play.

I think "building through the draft" is code for we want as many rookies as possible because under the new CBA we can substantially limit our payroll

I hope you're racking up the rep for this one.  Not that it leads to wins, but Cincy's recent drafts have drawn praise from A LOT of the media, some of them credible.  They went from technically sound, skilled, driven players like Geno and Whitworth to a specific template recently.  It's like they're saying give me an athlete with large dimensions and we will trust our staff to coach them up.  We take freakish DE's, interior players that lift record amounts and skill players that the staff talks up to fill voids.  Okay, none of that happened.  We blame the staff a lot, but since they've been counting on them recently we need to hold them more accountable.  This isn't an absolute, but I think we've been drafting descent players and not developing them. 

So just like the Whit and Geno examples before, there was a time when you locked both of them up because they panned out.  Now you're not locking guys up fast enough AND you aren't coaching up the alternatives to take their spots when you're apathetic about them either way finding an offer to match or leaving.  No matter who really makes the decisions, until they hold Marvin and his staff accountable then drafting players with holes this inept staff can't fix is senseless.  The best thing about this draft is Marvin doesn't have a deal.  Bitter or not, that's where we're at.