Hobson - only $15 million of cap to work with?

[fredtoast]

(03-01-2017, 02:44 PM)Whatever Wrote: No.  You can rollover up to $10 mill of cap space that you have under the league specified salary cap, not your adjusted cap after rollover.  It is impossible to spend over the cap and rollover cap space into the next year.  If the cap is $160 mill, you rollover $5 mill, and spend $161 mil, you can't roll the $4 mill from the previous year over.

Not according to sporttrac and other sites.

Link to where you found this info.  because everywhere i look it shows the Bengals spending over the league cap and rolling over the extra each year.

If it is impossible to rollover cap space more than one year then how did the Bengals spend over the league cap 2 years in a row?

[fredtoast]

(03-01-2017, 02:39 PM)jj22 Wrote: So I guess the moral of the story is 43-15 = 28. We have to pray we don't ever fall below 28m in cap space or we will be unable to even sign our own free agents that offseason. What will they do?!

You guys let Hobson get to you too much.  Last year he also said we only had $15 million to spend.  Not only did we spend more than that on free agents, but we also did a contract extensions for Bernard and Shawn Williams.


If you want to squirt and squal about what Hobson says then have at it.  But don't confuse it with what the Bengals actually do.

[jj22]

I agree Fred, last year we blew past Hobs numbers. And will (hopefully) be willing to do so again. That I do agree with.

It's just the attempt to sell us on it that is annoying. I'd rather Hobs just not say anything about the cap at all.

[Whatever]

(03-01-2017, 02:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Not according to sporttrac and other sites.

Link to where you found this info.  because everywhere i look it shows the Bengals spending over the league cap and rolling over the extra each year.

If it is impossible to rollover cap space more than one year then how did the Bengals spend over the league cap 2 years in a row?

Because there is a difference between cap dollars and actual spending.  As an example, you can wind up spending more than the cap during a year due to signing bonuses being prorated into future years.

[THE PISTONS]

(03-01-2017, 03:47 PM)Whatever Wrote: Because there is a difference between cap dollars and actual spending.  As an example, you can wind up spending more than the cap during a year due to signing bonuses being prorated into future years.

Yeah...I remember when they put the spending floor in...it goes by actual cash spent...so if you sign a guy like AJ Green to a 4 year $60 million contract with a $15 million signing bonus...your actual spend may count as $26 million for Year 1...but the cap hit might be $15 million.

[TKUHL]

Wasent there an article about the Bengals being more active in FA this year? How can they.

[fredtoast]

(03-01-2017, 03:47 PM)Whatever Wrote: Because there is a difference between cap dollars and actual spending. 

Exactly.

But that does not mean you can not roll over cap space more than one year.

If I am wrong please provide the link to the information.  Everything I see shows the Bengals having a cap above the league amount due to rollover.  then they spend over the league cap and roll the rest over each year.

[Bengalholic]

I thought this might help a little in the cap/rollover discussion:

The league salary cap going into 2015 was 143.28m. 
They rolled a little over 8m from 2014.
That made their total 'team' salary cap 151.66m. 
They used 140m of the cap space and had about 4m in dead money.

For 2016, the league salary cap was 155.27m. 
They again rolled over the 7.6 m from 2015.
This made their total 'team' cap 163m.
They used 153m and had about 3.3m in dead money.

This year, the league salary cap is 167m.
They rolled over 6.5m left from last year.
That makes the 'team' cap 173.5m.

[McC]

(03-01-2017, 04:49 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I thought this might help a little in the cap/roller discussion:

The league salary cap going into 2015 was 143.28m. 
They rolled a little over 8m from 2014.
That made their total 'team' salary cap 151.66m. 
They spent 140m of the cap space and had about 4m in dead money.

For 2016, the league salary cap was 155.27m. 
They again rolled over the 7.6 m from 2015.
This made their total 'team' cap 163m.
They spent 153m and had about 3.3m in dead money.

This year, the league salary cap is 167m.
They rolled over 6.5m left from last year.
That makes the 'team' cap 173.5m.

So, the 15 mil includes 6.5 from last year?

[BengalFanInNJ]

How much do you guys think Kirkpatrick is worth on the open market? Zeitler?

[*ochocincos*]

(03-01-2017, 04:49 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I thought this might help a little in the cap/roller discussion:

The league salary cap going into 2015 was 143.28m. 
They rolled a little over 8m from 2014.
That made their total 'team' salary cap 151.66m. 
They spent 140m of the cap space and had about 4m in dead money.

For 2016, the league salary cap was 155.27m. 
They again rolled over the 7.6 m from 2015.
This made their total 'team' cap 163m.
They spent 153m and had about 3.3m in dead money.

This year, the league salary cap is 167m.
They rolled over 6.5m left from last year.
That makes the 'team' cap 173.5m.

So what you're saying is expect just under the regular league salary cap of $167 million and that the amount of dead money will just slightly bump the Bengals cap usage over the normal league minimum. However, we should expect at least $5 million left that will be rolled over to 2018.

If that's the case, ok. But there's a lot of missing money if only $15 million is spent on Bengals FAs.
Bengals have $42 million in cap space to spend. Subtract that $15 million and you're at $27 million.
Subtract $9 million for the supposed drafted rookies. Down to $18 million.
Take out another few million to reserve for injuries. Let's say $5 million just to be extremely conservative. Down to $13 million.
Not all the injury money will be spent (likely), but given the Bengals like to roll over at least $5 million, we'll add another $3 million to cover the actual injuries and still allow for $5 million to be rolled over. Now you're down to $10 million.

That means that essentially, if the Bengals follow their model for the previous two years in terms of cap spending, they will use about $10 million toward extensions for other players.
I can't imagine that would all go to extend just Burfict and Eifert, who I feel are the only two players worth extending.
Likely, we'll see a mediocre/bad player (e.g. Bodine, Hill) get extended beyond what we think is worthy, and that's how the rest of the cap will be used.

[Bengalholic]

(03-01-2017, 05:00 PM)McC Wrote: So, the 15 mil includes 6.5 from last year?

The 6.5m rollover is part of the total 'available' cap space, which is around 42m.

The whole '15m' thing is literally just something that Hobson throws out every year around this time.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-01-2017, 04:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Exactly.

But that does not mean you can not roll over cap space more than one year.

If I am wrong please provide the link to the information.  Everything I see shows the Bengals having a cap above the league amount due to rollover.  then they spend over the league cap and roll the rest over each year.

Look at the link I gave you. Add up the numbers for the seasons I suggested. Tell me what you notice. 

[*ochocincos*]

(03-01-2017, 05:00 PM)McC Wrote: So, the 15 mil includes 6.5 from last year?

Essentially, yes. Hobson's statement was not "$15 million of the regular cap space + the rollover". I think if that was the intent, he would have directly stated it or just given a number in the $20 million range.

[fredtoast]

(03-01-2017, 02:34 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: The amount decreased from $8.6 million to $6.6 million over five seasons while the cap increased by $47 million. 

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cincinnati-bengals/cap/

That is a link to the Bengals cap info. I want you to total the NFL salary cap from 2012-2016, the Bengals adjusted salary cap from 2012-2016, and the Bengals total cap from 2012-2016. You should have three sums to compare. Once you're done, tell me if you notice anything. Especially the discrepancy between the Bengals adjusted salary cap and the Bengals total cap (cash spent.). Also, tell me what the trend is between the Bengals adjusted cap and total cap; increasing or decreasing. 

The Bengals are rolling over $6.6 million, but they have squandered roughly $37 million of their adjusted salary. Because the salary cap allows them to prorate the money over future years. By not paying that money to the players, where do you think it ends up? In their pockets. They're skimming. It's salary cap three card Monty. 

I went to the link and did not see these numbers you are calling "total cap" and "adjusted cap"

If you want to make a point you should do the math and show what you mean.  What is the difference between "total cap" and "adjusted cap".

I am not trying to argue just to argue.  I just want to see the math.  If the Bengals cap goes up due to rollover then that rollover continues each year.  Otherwise there would be zero roll over as soon as the Bengals did not use all of their previous cap space.  That is what Whatever originally said, and that just is not true.

Prorating bonus money has nothing to do with skimming because the Bengals have already paid that money.  What money are you claiming they are "not paying the players"?

[Bengal Dude]

(03-01-2017, 05:02 PM)BengalFanInNJ Wrote: How much do you guys think Kirkpatrick is worth on the open market? Zeitler?

Dre and Zeitler are going to get over $10 million each. Zeitler is being labeled as the best OL on the market by some. As for Dre, after seeing someone like Janoris Jenkins get a 5 year/$62 million deal last year, I can't imagine him getting under $10 million.

[bengals67]

Is Dre really worth $10 million?

[dr1441]

(02-28-2017, 11:41 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Well...I doubt they sign Z regardless. They aren't going to give him $12 million a year.

Whitworth very well could walk.

I can't for the life of me understand why this team deals with free agents the way they do. 

Bengals Logic:

-draft a 1st round OG
- 4 years later let him walk cuz OG isn't a "prime position" even though we drafted one in the first round

Now if they drafted Z in the 5th round and he blew up out of no where and now wants $12 Mil a year then fine, but you knew what the hell you were doing when you drafted him. Its just another shitty move by an organization that has proved they are shitty and inferior to other organizations over and over again. 

[yellowxdiscipline]

(03-01-2017, 06:13 PM)bengals67 Wrote: Is Dre really worth $10 million?

If we don't pay him 10, another team will.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-01-2017, 05:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I went to the link and did not see these numbers you are calling "total cap" and "adjusted cap"

If you want to make a point you should do the math and show what you mean.  What is the difference between "total cap" and "adjusted cap".

I am not trying to argue just to argue.  I just want to see the math.  If the Bengals cap goes up due to rollover then that rollover continues each year.  Otherwise there would be zero roll over as soon as the Bengals did not use all of their previous cap space.  That is what Whatever originally said, and that just is not true.

Prorating bonus money has nothing to do with skimming because the Bengals have already paid that money.  What money are you claiming they are "not paying the players"?

The numbers are near the bottom of each page for each season. I would like you do the math to see if we reach the same conclusion or not. 

If I do the math for you, you're only going to dispute the numbers so there is no point. 

By doing the math yourself, you have to think it through for yourself. Although I'm not positive, I think there is less chance you will disagree with your own conclusion than mine.