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Last year the d-line was a shell of its former self from what we've known over the past 5 years. We were awful at getting sacks (tied for 19th lowest at 33) , we couldn't stop the run (12th highest YPC at 4.4) and it looked like we were in desperate need of some young blood/re-tooling of the d-line. While the o-line has been the central focus around the forums (Rightfully so we sucked at that spot too.) the d-line is equally important to getting back into contention.
4.4 YPC is bad and imo the biggest knock against the defense last season and where the front office needs to begin its focus. If we can stop the run the rest of the defense will improve, other teams will have to resort to passing leaving more opportunities on the field to get sacks and it will take a lot of pressure off of the rest of the defense. Last year was too late to start looking for Peko's replacement and it should've begun a year sooner. Although I love Billings I'm uneasy about putting all of our eggs in his basket due to his zero NFL experience and now his injury. NT is too important at the moment to leave in the hand of Peko/Sims and Billings imo. I'd love to see the team cut Sims or Peko and sign Bennie Logan but that won't happen.
33 sacks was tied for 19th lowest in the league and I think that number will go up if the run stuffers get to work and bring down that 4.4 YPC but it was obvious to me it was more than that, we need to re-establish a true rotation again full of worthy players. In 2012 we were 2nd in the league in sacks and one away from being in a 3 way tie for first. That year the rotation looked like this...
Dunlap
Atkins
Geathers
Gillberry
Johnson
All of those players brought something to defense and contributed.The rotation kept them all fresh and put guys like Dunlap in a better position to make sacks. Gillberry and Johnson were better back then too.
Dunlap and Atkins are the center pieces obviously, Michael Johnson shouldn't be starting but would be a worthy piece of the rotation and Clarke has looked promising. I'd be willing to give him another year. Hunt and Gillberry are old news though and it's sad we're still working with these guys instead of moving on to a new investment. Maybe a rotation piece can be found in FA like Devin Taylor. We should keep looking for a stud DE who can rush the passer as good as Dunlap on the opposite side.
Overall I feel like the d-line is as big of a need as the o-line and our success this season is going to rely on improving both sides of the trenches drastically from last year. The o-line could be fixed but if the d-line isn't improved as well we are missing the playoff again. While the 2014-15 offense looked amazing until Dalton got injured I still think our best hope of bringing home a Lombardi Trophy is by having a tough defense.
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I agree that M Johnson should be more of a passing situation rotational guy next year and we need some fresh blood at DE in particular. If we're gonna keep Hunt around we really need to focus him as a rotational pass rushing DT next to Atkins imo
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A couple things to keep in mind:\
1. We do have some young talent that should be ready to contribute this year in Hardison and Billings. That should help the interior rotation.
2. We definitely need another outside threat on defense. Clarke is a nice "big" DE, but he's never going to be a guy that can get you off the field on 3rd down with pressure. We need another guy like that.
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Edge rusher is biggest need on team
getting a legitimate center is close.
Edge rusher in first and the best center in second is why I am hoping for.
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(03-02-2017, 01:21 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: Last year the d-line was a shell of its former self from what we've known over the past 5 years. We were awful at getting sacks (tied for 19th lowest at 33) , we couldn't stop the run (12th highest YPC at 4.4) and it looked like we were in desperate need of some young blood/re-tooling of the d-line. While the o-line has been the central focus around the forums (Rightfully so we sucked at that spot too.) the d-line is equally important to getting back into contention.
4.4 YPC is bad and imo the biggest knock against the defense last season and where the front office needs to begin its focus. If we can stop the run the rest of the defense will improve, other teams will have to resort to passing leaving more opportunities on the field to get sacks and it will take a lot of pressure off of the rest of the defense. Last year was too late to start looking for Peko's replacement and it should've begun a year sooner. Although I love Billings I'm uneasy about putting all of our eggs in his basket due to his zero NFL experience and now his injury. NT is too important at the moment to leave in the hand of Peko/Sims and Billings imo. I'd love to see the team cut Sims or Peko and sign Bennie Logan but that won't happen.
33 sacks was tied for 19th lowest in the league and I think that number will go up if the run stuffers get to work and bring down that 4.4 YPC but it was obvious to me it was more than that, we need to re-establish a true rotation again full of worthy players. In 2012 we were 2nd in the league in sacks and one away from being in a 3 way tie for first. That year the rotation looked like this...
Dunlap
Atkins
Geathers
Gillberry
Johnson
All of those players brought something to defense and contributed.The rotation kept them all fresh and put guys like Dunlap in a better position to make sacks. Gillberry and Johnson were better back then too.
Dunlap and Atkins are the center pieces obviously, Michael Johnson shouldn't be starting but would be a worthy piece of the rotation and Clarke has looked promising. I'd be willing to give him another year. Hunt and Gillberry are old news though and it's sad we're still working with these guys instead of moving on to a new investment. Maybe a rotation piece can be found in FA like Devin Taylor. We should keep looking for a stud DE who can rush the passer as good as Dunlap on the opposite side.
Overall I feel like the d-line is as big of a need as the o-line and our success this season is going to rely on improving both sides of the trenches drastically from last year. The o-line could be fixed but if the d-line isn't improved as well we are missing the playoff again. While the 2014-15 offense looked amazing until Dalton got injured I still think our best hope of bringing home a Lombardi Trophy is by having a tough defense.
Especially if we don't see a VAST improvement from our OC. He was terrible last season....although the piss poor iline play could have had a lot to do with that.
"Better send those refunds..."
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A big problem with the DL is they refuse to stop using "the rotation" strategy for it despite the fact that they don't have the players for it anymore. Clarke seemed to take a small step forward, but he's still not particularly good, and Hunt is still pure garbage as a defensive player.
The rotation strategy only works if you have the good bench players capable of executing it. The Bengals arguably need replacements at two of their four starters, let alone depth.
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I don't get the gilberry hate the guy might not have a ton of sacks but he does get constant pressure as a nickel DT. MJ is more of a run defender now and should see less time. Hunt, Peko, and Sims need to go. Clarke and Hardison should be competing for a job this off season. We need a nickel DT in replacement of gilberry (do to age) and an edge rusher early in the draft.
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(03-02-2017, 02:35 PM)J24 Wrote: I don't get the gilberry hate the guy might not have a ton of sacks but he does get constant pressure as a nickel DT. MJ is more of a run defender now and should see less time. Hunt, Peko, and Sims need to go. Clarke and Hardison should be competing for a job this off season. We need a nickel DT in replacement of gilberry (do to age) and an edge rusher early in the draft.
M Johnson can definitely set the edge but you don't think we could use someone with better measurables against power running plays?
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(03-02-2017, 03:03 PM)treee Wrote: M Johnson can definitely set the edge but you don't think we could use someone with better measurables against power running plays?
I don't how about that but in all honesty how many power Running plays are there in a game in today's NFL?
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(03-02-2017, 01:21 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: Last year the d-line was a shell of its former self from what we've known over the past 5 years. We were awful at getting sacks (tied for 19th lowest at 33) , we couldn't stop the run (12th highest YPC at 4.4) and it looked like we were in desperate need of some young blood/re-tooling of the d-line. While the o-line has been the central focus around the forums (Rightfully so we sucked at that spot too.) the d-line is equally important to getting back into contention.
4.4 YPC is bad and imo the biggest knock against the defense last season and where the front office needs to begin its focus. If we can stop the run the rest of the defense will improve, other teams will have to resort to passing leaving more opportunities on the field to get sacks and it will take a lot of pressure off of the rest of the defense. Last year was too late to start looking for Peko's replacement and it should've begun a year sooner. Although I love Billings I'm uneasy about putting all of our eggs in his basket due to his zero NFL experience and now his injury. NT is too important at the moment to leave in the hand of Peko/Sims and Billings imo. I'd love to see the team cut Sims or Peko and sign Bennie Logan but that won't happen.
33 sacks was tied for 19th lowest in the league and I think that number will go up if the run stuffers get to work and bring down that 4.4 YPC but it was obvious to me it was more than that, we need to re-establish a true rotation again full of worthy players. In 2012 we were 2nd in the league in sacks and one away from being in a 3 way tie for first. That year the rotation looked like this...
Dunlap
Atkins
Geathers
Gillberry
Johnson
All of those players brought something to defense and contributed.The rotation kept them all fresh and put guys like Dunlap in a better position to make sacks. Gillberry and Johnson were better back then too.
Dunlap and Atkins are the center pieces obviously, Michael Johnson shouldn't be starting but would be a worthy piece of the rotation and Clarke has looked promising. I'd be willing to give him another year. Hunt and Gillberry are old news though and it's sad we're still working with these guys instead of moving on to a new investment. Maybe a rotation piece can be found in FA like Devin Taylor. We should keep looking for a stud DE who can rush the passer as good as Dunlap on the opposite side.
Overall I feel like the d-line is as big of a need as the o-line and our success this season is going to rely on improving both sides of the trenches drastically from last year. The o-line could be fixed but if the d-line isn't improved as well we are missing the playoff again. While the 2014-15 offense looked amazing until Dalton got injured I still think our best hope of bringing home a Lombardi Trophy is by having a tough defense.
I can sum up the DL problems in few simple words.
You've only listed the starters and main contributors, but the players drafted to enter the rotation and be eventual starters have all been draft busts or injured. Hunt, Still, Thompson, Williamson (or whatever his name is), Clarke (did contribute last year - year 3) and Billings (who shows promise but was injured).
So there's just no quality youth being injected into this line and that doesn't bode well for the future.
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I think if Billings and Hardison can stay healthy, this year should be a lot better along the line. Guys like Peko, Gilberry, Clarke, Hunt, and MJ leave a lot to be desired and we could surely upgrade over those guys. I don't mind keeping a guy like MJ as he's able to set the edge fine and bat balls, but he's not a pass rusher and is 30 and should have his snaps cut back. Guys like Clarke might be ok for the rotation, but he leaves me feeling like we could use a better pass rush specialist.
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I keep reading that we need linebackers in this draft, but IMO we need two DEs just as bad. Fortunately, I think the draft is deep enough to get an upgrade over MJ in round 2 if not 1, then get another guy like perhaps Lawson in the 4th as he seems to be slipping.
That would make this d-line and entire defense a lot younger and faster right off the bat.
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We need to sign Peko to one more year. If he's rotated, he still has game, and his leadership is going to be needed until Billings and Hardison prove they can play at this level. I'm not saying break the bank with him, but we need him one more time.....
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We've got to draft an edge rusher first or second, and in the case of Michael Johnson, I think he's just not what he used to be. But I think he's now more effective against the run than the pass.
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(03-02-2017, 02:25 PM)Wyche Wrote: Especially if we don't see a VAST improvement from our OC. He was terrible last season....although the piss poor iline play could have had a lot to do with that.
How many good plays might he have called that never got a chance to happen? And he had no running game for 13 games.
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(03-02-2017, 05:19 PM)Sled21 Wrote: We need to sign Peko to one more year. If he's rotated, he still has game, and his leadership is going to be needed until Billings and Hardison prove they can play at this level. I'm not saying break the bank with him, but we need him one more time.....
The downside of that is, if he's here, he'll get the snaps, probably even be the starter.
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(03-02-2017, 04:11 PM)BengalChris Wrote: I can sum up the DL problems in few simple words.
You've only listed the starters and main contributors, but the players drafted to enter the rotation and be eventual starters have all been draft busts or injured. Hunt, Still, Thompson, Williamson (or whatever his name is), Clarke (did contribute last year - year 3) and Billings (who shows promise but was injured).
So there's just no quality youth being injected into this line and that doesn't bode well for the future.
This.
Bengals have used a lot of high draft picks on D-linemen who have flopped. By far our worst position in the draft over the last few years.
In 2010 we got both Dunlap and Atkins in the same draft. After that we took
'11...Dontay Moch in the 3rd
'12...Devin Still (2nd), Brandon Thompson (3rd)
'13...Margus Hunt (2nd)
'14...Will Clarke (3rd)
'15...Marcus Hardison (4th)
'16...Andrew billings (4th)
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The defensive line degraded the moment Mike Zimmer left for Minnesota.
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(03-02-2017, 06:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This.
Bengals have used a lot of high draft picks on D-linemen who have flopped. By far our worst position in the draft over the last few years.
In 2010 we got both Dunlap and Atkins in the same draft. After that we took
'11...Dontay Moch in the 3rd
'12...Devin Still (2nd), Brandon Thompson (3rd)
'13...Margus Hunt (2nd)
'14...Will Clarke (3rd)
'15...Marcus Hardison (4th)
'16...Andrew billings (4th)
I remember how excited many of us (including myself) were to get both Still and Thompson in the same draft. Still sucked and Thomspon has been just a guy, although may still have something to give. I'm not sure what's gone wrong in their development or evaluation, but this issue will hurt once Dunlap and Geno begin the inevitable decline due to age.
All that said, this is a great year to replenish the depleted tealent at that spot. I'm starting to like Malik McDowell as a guy with the size and versatility they like.
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(03-02-2017, 01:21 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: Last year the d-line was a shell of its former self from what we've known over the past 5 years. We were awful at getting sacks (tied for 19th lowest at 33) , we couldn't stop the run (12th highest YPC at 4.4) and it looked like we were in desperate need of some young blood/re-tooling of the d-line. While the o-line has been the central focus around the forums (Rightfully so we sucked at that spot too.) the d-line is equally important to getting back into contention.
4.4 YPC is bad and imo the biggest knock against the defense last season and where the front office needs to begin its focus. If we can stop the run the rest of the defense will improve, other teams will have to resort to passing leaving more opportunities on the field to get sacks and it will take a lot of pressure off of the rest of the defense. Last year was too late to start looking for Peko's replacement and it should've begun a year sooner. Although I love Billings I'm uneasy about putting all of our eggs in his basket due to his zero NFL experience and now his injury. NT is too important at the moment to leave in the hand of Peko/Sims and Billings imo. I'd love to see the team cut Sims or Peko and sign Bennie Logan but that won't happen.
33 sacks was tied for 19th lowest in the league and I think that number will go up if the run stuffers get to work and bring down that 4.4 YPC but it was obvious to me it was more than that, we need to re-establish a true rotation again full of worthy players. In 2012 we were 2nd in the league in sacks and one away from being in a 3 way tie for first. That year the rotation looked like this...
Dunlap
Atkins
Geathers
Gillberry
Johnson
All of those players brought something to defense and contributed.The rotation kept them all fresh and put guys like Dunlap in a better position to make sacks. Gillberry and Johnson were better back then too.
Dunlap and Atkins are the center pieces obviously, Michael Johnson shouldn't be starting but would be a worthy piece of the rotation and Clarke has looked promising. I'd be willing to give him another year. Hunt and Gillberry are old news though and it's sad we're still working with these guys instead of moving on to a new investment. Maybe a rotation piece can be found in FA like Devin Taylor. We should keep looking for a stud DE who can rush the passer as good as Dunlap on the opposite side.
Overall I feel like the d-line is as big of a need as the o-line and our success this season is going to rely on improving both sides of the trenches drastically from last year. The o-line could be fixed but if the d-line isn't improved as well we are missing the playoff again. While the 2014-15 offense looked amazing until Dalton got injured I still think our best hope of bringing home a Lombardi Trophy is by having a tough defense.
Great post and thread Cage.
Completely agree, we need to move on from Peko, bring in a FA and a rookie to compete. The only question i now
have with Billings is the injury. I cannot count on him like i thought i would, thankfully he is still extremely young but
in the meantime we need an immediate DT that is not a schlub like Peko.
Sims isn't the answer anymore either it seems even though i always and still do like him better than Peko.
DeShawn Williams is a thought here but we need more competition at this spot.
I like that you brought up Devin Taylor as i think he fits in here well with his size and he is young with promise. I
agree that MJ would be servicable still in a rotation, he just shouldn't be the starter. Clarke to me was better last
year and if we draft an End at 9 like Barnett, Thomas, Allen, Charlton etc we should be in a much better situation.
Jabaal Sheard is actually the guy i want most in FA or like you said Bennie Logan at DT. Fairley is more likely and
i hope we sign him. He would be a significant upgrade.
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