Fredtoast take on the O-line issue

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(03-05-2017, 10:12 PM)Joelist Wrote: Lest we forget having Andy's super quick release (depending on the season either fastest or second fastest in the league) has made our line look better in pass protection than it really is. We saw this effect when he got hurt in 2015 and the slower release McCarron got clobbered.

...and in 2016 even the quick release didn't help.

[Yojimbo]

I want some more beef on the line. I miss Bobbie Williams. How good were we at short yardage conversions when we could run behind him?

Nico Siracusa or Isaac Asiata would be nice mid round pick ups for RG. Some real beef would be Sharpe at RT, he moved as well as anybody in the drills at the combine at 6'7" 357lbs.

[CageTheBengal]

Good post.

The o-line that we had in 05 wasn't just good I think they were by far the best line Marvin has ever coached and the unsung heroes of the 05 season.

1. Levi Jones was flat out dominant and I hate how he went down to injuries.
2. Braham was the unsung hero of the unsung heroes he sounded like a really intelligent guy on top of being a good linemen.
3. Willie Anderson should be a Hall of Famer
4. Steinbach was lights out when it came to pass protection
5. Bobbie Williams was a bulldozer when it came to run blocking
   

I think the Bengals have fallen short when it comes to re-stocking the line on either side of the ball. Whitworth was obviously a great pick and the type of move the Bengals need to make if they aren't going to be signing big players in FA. When Whit was drafted there wasn't a need on the o-line for him really but they spent a 2nd round pick on him anyways. They have made efforts like with Ogbuehi, Fisher, Still and Thompson but it has to come full circle and those players didn't/haven't yet developed into starting players to replace those who are getting older.

I think some of the issue falls back on the Bengals loyalty and while I believe in giving players a chance to develop but they wait too long to cut the cord sometimes. While we were wasting time with Rolands, Livings and Gutcheck we could've moved on and given another player a shot to see what they can do.

I totally agree with you about Ogbuehi. It's easy to kick him while he's down but the guy has had the deck stacked against him since he was drafted. At this point it's obvious he hasn't been good enough but he's not a bust yet. Let's see what happpens now that he has his feet wet in the pros and he has a healthy off-season under his belt. If people want to be upset that we drafted a tackle in round 1 coming off of a major injury that's one thing but you still have to give Ced a fair shake.

[HarleyDog]

(03-05-2017, 06:16 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Even signing Nick Mangold for a year would allow the Front Office and coaches time to fix the rest of the offensive line.

Fred makes some excellent points and he's right about run blocking being far worse than pass blocking.

(03-05-2017, 06:53 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: He was cut for a reason. But i agree with FIK that at the very least he could be a buffer for us for a year and a bit better than Bodine.

I'm ok with this as long as the money is right. I don't want to drop a ton of cash on this kid like he is a superstar.

[BenZoo2]

(03-05-2017, 09:05 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Strongest guy at the position has nothing to do with the bench press.  Many of us have argued for years that different tests should be implemented to determine strength.  Training for a reps contest in bench press is not akin to doing track workouts to train for the 40.  Both are false measurables.  They do not determine a man's strength in game action, nor a man's speed in game action.  Pretty much worthless.  More times than not, they benefit guys that are not good football players more than they get unknown good football players to rise to the top.

I get what you're saying and I agree with you.  Pete Koch was a prime example of that.  It just seems like pa likes to take this type of guy.  He doesn't seem able to coach it into functional strength 

[Joelist]

A big part of the issues goes back to our refusal to invest in a blue chipper at Center. Instead we draft clowns like Ghiacuc and Bodine or take fliers on players like Kyle Cook. Cook showed flashes before he got hurt but Ghiacuc was the worst center in football and so is Bodine. Should I mention who it was that lobbied hard for both Ghiacuc and Bodine?

[samhain]

Legit assessment, Fred.

The team is in a precarious position right now. If both Whit and Z go elsewhere, they have very limited options. Ogbuehi would have to take huge steps in both technique and overall strength to be a non-disastrous option at LT right now. I think they need to give him a year to be the backup emergency swing tackle and pray they don't need him. Let him build some strength and bulk. He's already seen the speed of the pro game first hand, and knows he's overmatched. Build him up and insulate his confidence for a season and then see where he is next year if he progresses.

This is a shitty draft for offensive tackles. There are no plug and play players that can man the LT spot IMO. Not even a Tunsil or Conkiln caliber guy like last year. The guys they'll get are a lot of relatively undersized second-round talents that run a good chance of getting the same beatdown Ced did last season if they are relied on too early.

They HAVE to sign Whit if they want to have any shot at improving on offense, in my opinion.

[NATI BENGALS]

That is why I have been on the Cam Robinson bandwagon. Run blocking is his best attribute. You dont often find yourself in position to draft Outland trophy winning #1 tackle prospects.

Cam in the 1st has been blowing open holes for all those Bama backs and Pocic in the 2nd made some giant holes for Fournette and his backup to run through.

Getting the two best offensive linemen out of the SEC couldnt hurt.

Getting the run game going again would work wonders in all facets.

[BURROWorBUST]

The value assigned to OLinemen hasn't been the same since Paul Brown left. How many decent RBs careers have we wasted? We are to RBs what Cleveland is to QBs. We had the beginnings of a good Oline before Andre Smith got hurt back in 2014. When he did come back, we wasn't the same but better than what we have now. If we re-signed him to hold down RT for a year or so, we could be ok, but we still have to replace Zeitler. And I'm not sure that Smith can stay healthy for a whole season. We'd end up counting on Fisher or Winston. 

I think we can get some decent help for the OLine in the 3rd-4th rounds of this draft. We could take a guard or center in the 2nd, but I highly doubt that will happen. If we're at 9, you know some guys will drop to us out of the first. I agree with those who oppose drafting project players. We need help NOW! 

Right now, I'm high on us taking Fournette at 9, if he's there. But then I'd expect to see a huge effort to beef up the Oline over the next 2 years. Whit won't be around forever (I think he re-signs with us). Boling's pretty good. Z is gone. We have no RT. Taking Fournette would be dumb if we didn't get him a line to run behind. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-05-2017, 04:01 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: First, let me say that what you wrote was a very good observation and interpretation of the OL situation.  You'd be hard pressed to find many of the regulars on here that would disagree with your analysis.

There is one thing that you mentioned, that I would like to discuss a bit further.  That item being the tendency for Paul Alexander to select linemen based upon their pass blocking skills, with less emphasis on run blocking ability.  I am of the philosophy that pass blocking, particularly for interior OL, is a technique that can be taught.  On the other hand, linemen that are good run blockers seem to be able to do that as an extension of their personality.  In my way of thinking, run blocking ability is more a product of having natural aggression, along with the latent desire to dominate the man in front of them, and force him to submit to one's will.

We have seen this team's OL, over the past stretch of winning seasons, look very good in protecting the QB.  However, in critical situations, struggle to gain 3rd and short via the run.  Many of this team's best runs seem to come by running when a pass is expected, or by a tremendous individual effort by the ball carrier.  Many times, even on say 2nd and medium distance to go, they seem unable to generate much of a push from the interior 3 of the OL.  Now, these are just my very general observations.  I'm certain that most anyone could go through game films and find plenty of examples that show contrary to my opinion, but I'm talking more the "big game" situations, against higher quality teams.

So, I guess my point is to ask you if you feel like a change in drafting philosophy might be in order?  I understand that you are generally a proponent of Paul Alexander.  Would you think that he is too set in his own philosophy to realize that a change in strategy might be in order?

I agree 100%.  I even had to rep you fred....lol.  All jokes aside, I am very close to sharing the same opinions as fred here, save for a few subtle differences.  With the exception of one or two here and there, Alexander can't seem to coach up fringe talent.  I know I rip him pretty good, but aside from hyperbole to drill home my thoughts on the guy, I see him as extremely overrated, but not terrible.  

I think maybe the game has passed him by, and I am almost certain he is too damn stubborn and egotistical to adapt.  In fairness to Paul, that appears to be a hallmark of this whole damn organization.....which is very frustrating when I feel we were at the cusp.  Not only do I feel he is too set in his own philosophy, I think he is too set in his pet projects to move on from them when he should.  Blodine should have already been replaced, and bust or not, he stuck with Og WAY too long last season.  I also don't understand why he rushed to the defense of the worst rated center in the league, but then tried to talk tough about the benching of Ogbuehi.

Something to ponder.....two of the worst rated players at their position in the entire league have come under Alexander's tutelege, and were both lobbied for hard by Paul himself.  That's pretty frightening.

Also, from a pure accountability standpoint, NO WAY should ANY coach from Dave Shula's staff still have a job here.  How can you preach accountability to players when a coach that was a part of the 2nd worst decade in all of professional sports history is STILL HERE?

I also agree with your mindset regarding the run game.  Interesting observation.

(03-05-2017, 09:00 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: I agree with most of what Fred is saying.

I have to say something though.

If Marvin and Paul Alexander roll with the same exact line(or less Whit/Z)and it is again an absolute crapfest...

That's it Fred.  It's over.  No more propping either one of them up.

Look...  I don't want them to fail.  I will have just about had it with the two of them if that occurs.

If pure ego tries to force square pegs into round holes, then we know exactly who we are dealing with.

Absolutely Rocker.....in an ever changing league, there is no place for stubborness to adaptation....especially when it stems from ego.

(03-05-2017, 09:12 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I agree with almost everything you say Fred, but your post makes me wonder...why do you rip people for wanting PA replaced? Why were you ripping me for saying that Bodine should be gone but likely won't be (now you're saying the same thing)?

Also, despite the fact that it's more of a passing league these days, the run game is still massively important. Especially for a team like ours, which is more balanced than say...New Orleans or Green Bay. Also, PA's unit has been one of the worst in the playoffs. We've never been able to dominate a game on the ground (outside of Benson going nuclear against the Jets), and the pass blocking suddenly is terrible.

It's worth noting, if memory serves, we had to run a lot of unbalanced sets to provide lanes for Benson.  Of course, I was there, and that was certainly bourbon weather....the memory may be a touch hazy. 

(03-05-2017, 10:12 PM)Joelist Wrote: Lest we forget having Andy's super quick release (depending on the season either fastest or second fastest in the league) has made our line look better in pass protection than it really is. We saw this effect when he got hurt in 2015 and the slower release McCarron got clobbered.

I agree.  I think watching McCarron get nailed kinda proved that theory to at least have some credence.

(03-06-2017, 12:37 AM)BenZoo2 Wrote: I get what you're saying and I agree with you.  Pete Koch was a prime example of that.  It just seems like pa likes to take this type of guy.  He doesn't seem able to coach it into functional strength 

....nor be able to move on from them when it's time it seems....

(03-06-2017, 12:52 AM)Joelist Wrote: A big part of the issues goes back to our refusal to invest in a blue chipper at Center. Instead we draft clowns like Ghiacuc and Bodine or take fliers on players like Kyle Cook. Cook showed flashes before he got hurt but Ghiacuc was the worst center in football and so is Bodine. Should I mention who it was that lobbied hard for both Ghiacuc and Bodine?

....and Ogbuehi.

[*SHRacerX*]

I agree with a lot of what Yojimbo and Cage said about the RG position and needing a mauler there. There will be some real options in the second round that could fit that bill, and I love Dan Feeney. No one wants to give up a high pick for something as unsexy as a Guard, but I think that it will pay huge dividends in the running game.

Fisher looked solid at RT, and I think a full offseason for him preparing for that spot will help tremendously. His light seemed to turn on at the end of the year. He had some really nice blocks for Sexy.

Bodine is Bodine. I doubt Elflein could unseat him if he is drafted this year, but he could push him to be better. If they are able to trade AJM, or if they slide in Rd 1, I could see the Bengals going Guard and Center in the second. Again, not sexy, but important to help our biggest weakness: the running game.

Boling has been very solid and showed some real guts playing injured all of last year.

Whit MUST be resigned. Going with a FA to try and fill his void would be catastrophic.

Sign Whit, draft a really good Guard, and maybe a Center and they will be ready to compete in 2017.

[bengals67]

Great post Fred

My only slight disagreement, if any, is the stupidity of keeping Bodine at center.

Bodine at center had been close to og at RT  but we have endured Bodine for how many years.

Center should have been a priority for the last two years. We are not going to beat any upper level team in a playoff game with Bodine at center.

[fredtoast]

(03-05-2017, 04:54 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Do you see a possibility where Boling is moving? 

(03-05-2017, 05:06 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I disagree with a few things you say here though. Fisher won't be playing LG, that is Boling's spot

I meant RG.  Did not mean to suggest Boling would switch sides.

[fredtoast]

(03-05-2017, 09:12 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I agree with almost everything you say Fred, but your post makes me wonder...why do you rip people for wanting PA replaced? 

Because they act like Alexander has never done anything good and that no other O-line coach in the league has ever coached a bad player.

Give me the name of an O-line coach who has turned every single draft pick he has coached into a star and I'll suggest we take him to replace Alexander.

You honestly think Alexander WANTED the Bengals to go almost a decade without spending more than two picks in the first two rounds on O-linemen?  The guy was forced to get by on scraps for years and he did a pretty good job with what he had.

[NATI BENGALS]

(03-06-2017, 11:09 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Because they act like Alexander has never done anything good and that no other O-line coach in the league has ever coached a bad player.

Give me the name of an O-line coach who has turned every single draft pick he has coached into a star and I'll suggest we take him to replace Alexander.

You honestly think Alexander WANTED the Bengals to go almost a decade without spending more than two picks in the first two rounds on O-linemen?  The guy was forced to get by on scraps for years and he did a pretty good job with what he had.

What is it like 22 years he has had. Bound to get lucky on a few draft picks sooner or later. You could throw darts blindfolded at a list of OL and over the time he has had and have some luck.


Seems like the guy has more say than any other position coaches as far as getting to draft who he wants. Maybe a new set of eyes would actually help.

[fredtoast]

(03-06-2017, 01:09 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote:  You could throw darts blindfolded at a list of OL and over the time he has had and have some luck.

This just is not true at all.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-06-2017, 01:09 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: What is it like 22 years he has had. Bound to get lucky on a few draft picks sooner or later. You could throw darts blindfolded at a list of OL and over the time he has had and have some luck.


Seems like the guy has more say than any other position coaches as far as getting to draft who he wants. Maybe a new set of eyes would actually help.

This.  The Eagles got some good games out of Mathis after Paul couldn't get him on the field.  There are better line coaches out there, we should have been trying to get them instead of sticking with the status quo.  Some act like Alexander has never done anything great, because others act like he is infallible and has never been a part of the losing culture here.....

[fredtoast]

(03-06-2017, 01:14 PM)Wyche Wrote: This.  The Eagles got some good games out of Mathis after Paul couldn't get him on the field.  

Alexander started Mathis ahead of Livings in '09 until Evan got injured.

When Mathis joined the Bengals in '08 he was a journeyman who had been cut and was on his third team in two years.  After a year of PA coaching some people claimed he was one of the better guards in the league before getting injured in '09.  In '10 Mathis was fat and out of shape.  He did not deserve to start.  That is why he had to settle for a veteran league minimum deal in free agency.

[yellowxdiscipline]

I'm not onboard with jettisoning a first round draft pick, you let him play out his contract, and if he doesn't show improvement then you let him walk. Watching Ogbuehi try to block makes me want to go against that line of thinking. He needs to show some vast improvement this season or we need to just walk away. Keeping Whit is the move we'll make, and it's the right one.

[Benton]

(03-06-2017, 10:41 AM)bengals67 Wrote: Great post Fred

My only slight disagreement, if any, is the stupidity of keeping Bodine at center.

Bodine at center had been close to og at RT  but we have endured Bodine for how many years.

Center should have been a priority for the last two years. We are not going to beat any upper level team in a playoff game with Bodine at center.

We've done horrible at developing centers for a while now, but that's not just us. Center is an underrated position. The focus is usually on your tackles, and for some teams the center position seems to just be plugging in a smart lineman. For three drafts I've spent the first two rounds chanting "DT/C, DT/C, DT/C." So I've been a little disappointed with OL and corners.

But as to the thread, I don't get the knocks on Alexander. He's helped several linemen progress. At the end of the day, all a coach can do is provide insight and what they've learned. The rest is on how bad the player wants it. Guys like Whitworth don't just happen because they've got a good coach, they become one of the best linemen in the league with a long career because they want to be the best and they take their job seriously. Guys like Andre bust out for the other end of that — all the talent in the world doesn't help you if you're lazy. And coaching those guys only goes so far. You motivate a guy like Andre some in the lockerroom and some in contract negotiations.