Your Thoughts On The Safeties

[BenZoo2]

(03-06-2017, 11:44 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Not a damn thing and i was one of the dumb fellas that thought it was time to move on from the Predator.

Missed him though and i wished he was on my team when i was watching the Raiders.

Plus i understand that the Raiders Secondary was pretty bad, terribly bad early in the year but it was Reggie's first year in
the system and i bet that ole Karl Joseph becomes a stud on down the road with Reggie's help. Really liked Karl Joseph in
college and would of been for us drafting him last year if he fell even if he had a bad rookie year.

Me too.  I thought Nelson was one those better to let go a yearly than keep a year too late.  This year will show the beginning of his decline, if any.

[SunsetBengal]

(03-06-2017, 11:44 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Not a damn thing and i was one of the dumb fellas that thought it was time to move on from the Predator.

Missed him though and i wished he was on my team when i was watching the Raiders.

Plus i understand that the Raiders Secondary was pretty bad, terribly bad early in the year but it was Reggie's first year in
the system and i bet that ole Karl Joseph becomes a stud on down the road with Reggie's help. Really liked Karl Joseph in
college and would of been for us drafting him last year if he fell even if he had a bad rookie year.

Reggie Nelson around for another year or two certainly would have softened the blow of losing Vance Joseph from the coaching staff.  The combined loss of Coach Joseph, along with veteran Safety Reggie Nelson left the Safety position is great turmoil for at least half of the season.  Now, to be sure, the Bengals DB coach Kevin Coyle certainly had his hands full, not only a primary loss at Safety, but also a loss of Leon Hall, and the untimely season ending injury to 1st round pick WJIII. 

I was quite hard on the organization for allowing what was a great Defensive Backfield and Coaching combination to fall apart in a rather short period of time.  However, as the season went on, not only did the Safety play improve, but the entire secondary seemed to regain it's footing.

I also know where the real holes on this team are, personnel wise.  On the defensive side of the ball, we need a DE and LB much more than we need a Safety.  However, if a guy like Malik Hooker is sitting there at 9 you pretty much have to take him, or at least get a handsome ransom from a team that sees him as their missing piece. 

[eoxyod]

(03-06-2017, 11:27 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: You're obviously being sarcastic, but what's wrong with the contract he took from the Raiders? 2yr/$8.5m, plus some incentives, and ZERO dead money if they cut him right now.

It's wrong because he didn't play any better than our current safeties, and our current safeties now have the ability to grow into their own role with a new coach. I will repeat that Nelson was not that good last season and he was let go at the right time. The only way he would have still been better here is scheme fit. That money could have been spent elsewhere. KNowing how the Bengals spend their money and don't overload into one position group, Iloka might have been allowed to go. They could have Hollywood accounted to where they didn't sign LaFell. One year hurt where the safety play wasn't even bad, at a position that isn't valued in our system, isn't worth it

[Shake n Blake]

IMO the safeties are just fine. They started out rough (as did the D as a whole), but looked solid as they season progressed. Could we do better? Sure, but I think they're both above average. People are just salty that Reggie is gone and they're being tougher on Iloka/Williams than they should be because of it.

[TKUHL]

It's kinda like having a show car you want to fix up, you found some nice rims, exhaust that sounds great(referring to skill players in the draft) You know you have a chance to win the car show(SB) but you have bad fuel injectors(O and D Lines) you know you can't drive your car to the show it won't make it(playoffs) but man if you just got that exhaust and rims you know you could win the show (SB) so you see how much it would cost if you put money into the car to fix the problem. You see parts cost a lot to keep it all original parts(our FA) you see cheaper after market parts (FA) but you decide screw it. I will get those damn rims and exhaust, make it look good and just freakin Tow It to the show(playoffs). This is how I feel about this franchise right now. I would love the top RB, TE, WR even S but what is the point when all Mikey wants to do is Tow It. So frustrating.

[BenZoo2]

(03-07-2017, 12:04 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Reggie Nelson around for another year or two certainly would have softened the blow of losing Vance Joseph from the coaching staff.  The combined loss of Coach Joseph, along with veteran Safety Reggie Nelson left the Safety position is great turmoil for at least half of the season.  Now, to be sure, the Bengals DB coach Kevin Coyle certainly had his hands full, not only a primary loss at Safety, but also a loss of Leon Hall, and the untimely season ending injury to 1st round pick WJIII. 

I was quite hard on the organization for allowing what was a great Defensive Backfield and Coaching combination to fall apart in a rather short period of time.  However, as the season went on, not only did the Safety play improve, but the entire secondary seemed to regain it's footing.

I also know where the real holes on this team are, personnel wise.  On the defensive side of the ball, we need a DE and LB much more than we need a Safety.  However, if a guy like Malik Hooker is sitting there at 9 you pretty much have to take him, or at least get a handsome ransom from a team that sees him as their missing piece. 

Good points as usual, sunset.  'Cept maybe the hooker thing.  ?.  He may be the bpa at that spot but not what I take.

[phil413]

I agree with most of the points made and where the voting is going but I'm hearing too much Reggie praise and not enough of a call for pass rush. Reggie will be 34 at the start of the season and won't be in stripes. The decision to resign him looks bad, but would look a lot better if they had more of a rush from the edge to cover the ills...not the old man doing it all.

There is some depth to this class, but the bulk of it could be the mid round guys falling to the end of the draft where Cincy has a lot of picks. It would seem like a miracle to most of us if they dealt a few of them up (let alone one) in trade to move up. So, pen me in for them holding pat in hopefully strengthening up the front 7 and even corner (where there is even more depth in the draft), and getting another value pick at safety like Iloka and Smith were.

[BenZoo2]

(03-06-2017, 11:26 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Other than the top 4 i have rated being Hooker, Adams, Melifonwu and Budda Baker who do you got as a fast ball hawking Safety Zoo?

I like Derron Smith in this role already and he is on the team. He just needs to tackle better.

Since you asked, these are guys I would consider later in the draft:
Eddie Jackson, ala
Orion Stewart, bay
Demetrious cox, msu
Tony Connor, ole miss

[BURROWorBUST]

I think about Tobin's comments on BPA at #9. We've seen people here support taking Hooker. It's the same argument concerning Fournette. If a guy is one of the top 2 in his position group ...

Hooker has been compared to Ed Reed. Obviously, we don't know if he's that good or not. He's never played in the NFL. But if our scouts think he could be that good, do you take him, or a guy that may or may not fit your scheme (e.g., Solomon Thomas) who you think addresses a higher need?

[eoxyod]

(03-07-2017, 03:35 AM)Shady Wrote: I think about Tobin's comments on BPA at #9. We've seen people here support taking Hooker. It's the same argument concerning Fournette. If a guy is one of the top 2 in his position group ...

Hooker has been compared to Ed Reed. Obviously, we don't know if he's that good or not. He's never played in the NFL. But if our scouts think he could be that good, do you take him, or a guy that may or may not fit your scheme (e.g., Solomon Thomas) who you think addresses a higher need?

Ed Reed is a uncomparable player, but if everyone in the room thinks he woulld be that, you take Hooker in a second.

[McC]

(03-07-2017, 12:45 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: IMO the safeties are just fine. They started out rough (as did the D as a whole), but looked solid as they season progressed. Could we do better? Sure, but I think they're both above average. People are just salty that Reggie is gone and they're being tougher on Iloka/Williams than they should be because of it.

The safeties stopped being liabilities as the season went on, after it was too late, that is, but they didn't make plays, they didn't change games.  Great Safeties elevate entire defenses.  That's why the best ones go in the top ten.  They matter.   I see ours as average, at best.   Look at great defenses over the years.  See what the Safeties look like.

Maybe the position isn't at the top of the needs list, but if you can get the best one in the draft, you have to take him.  But that's the same for any position.

As far as I'm concerned, the Bengals will be a long shot to make the playoffs, depending on what FA's we lose, so you're not saving the season with the draft.  That is just hoping for a miracle.

So, get great players in this rebuild.  Not really fair to the core players to have to go through this but this is where we are.  I'm looking at you, PA.

There's only one way to blow the number 9, and that is by not getting a great player.  I don't care what position he plays.  He just has to have a profound impact.  Safety is a position that can do that.  The Bengals won't take one first.  They have too much invested in the incumbents.  Finance will always win out around here.  But I can't see being married to those two.  All they'll ever be is okay.

[Shake n Blake]

(03-07-2017, 05:33 AM)McC Wrote: The safeties stopped being liabilities as the season went on, after it was too late, that is, but they didn't make plays, they didn't change games.  Great Safeties elevate entire defenses.  That's why the best ones go in the top ten.  They matter.   I see ours as average, at best.   Look at great defenses over the years.  See what the Safeties look like.

Maybe the position isn't at the top of the needs list, but if you can get the best one in the draft, you have to take him.  But that's the same for any position.

As far as I'm concerned, the Bengals will be a long shot to make the playoffs, depending on what FA's we lose, so you're not saving the season with the draft.  That is just hoping for a miracle.

So, get great players in this rebuild.  Not really fair to the core players to have to go through this but this is where we are.  I'm looking at you, PA.

There's only one way to blow the number 9, and that is by not getting a great player.  I don't care what position he plays.  He just has to have a profound impact.  Safety is a position that can do that.  The Bengals won't take one first.  They have too much invested in the incumbents.  Finance will always win out around here.  But I can't see being married to those two.  All they'll ever be is okay.

A bit harsh considering they were transitioning away from Nelson and Vance Joseph, but I respect your opinion. I just disagree on the potential of Iloka and Williams. Just 2 years ago, people on here were slobbering all over Iloka...saying he was better than Kam Chancellor for pete's sake. Now he's a bum. Fickle crowd I guess.

As far as playmaking, I know Reggie had a career year in 2015 with 8 INTs. That's fresh in people's minds. But he's averaged only 3.1 INTs per year for his career...3.8 for the Bengals. Both Iloka and Williams had 3 last year. So they made a fair amount of plays. Iloka had 73 tackles and Williams had 81 tackles. They helped prevent big plays. For their first season with Coyle and without Reggie...and with the team pretty well falling apart...I think they did pretty well, and I expect even better in their 2nd year together with Coyle.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-06-2017, 11:46 PM)BenZoo2 Wrote: I'll have to go digging.  There's got to be a div 2 guy out there that's fast, but raw and needs time to develop at the pro level.  I think our safeties are good enough if the defense improves elsewhere.  The bengals can literally go in any direction at 9 and I can see the reasoning behind the pick.  Except qb or interior o line.  

I think if they don't bring Whitworth back Cam Robinson will be the leading candidate at 9.

That is the problem if they lose their good player/players, it does affect the draft.

(03-06-2017, 11:47 PM)TKUHL Wrote: Yup! Bring in a solid vet Center so we can go BPA early then take a young C like Toth to groom behind if the guy we get in FA is older like Mangold. If we can only keep 2 out of the 3 I would keep Whit and Zeitler let Dre go. I think those two are the only ones worth it. It's a deep CB class and with Marvins draft history I'm sure we will draft one early, it won't sting as much since we won't have to draft O line early. As for Rex, I like Rex but we can find anyone to run the ball. It's a deep RB draft too. I don't think anyone thinks Rex is the answer. If he stays cheap fine, but I would still like to get Kamara in the 2nd or Parine/McNichols/Foreman in the 4th if one is still there. We are in position to get a very good DE and LB but I'm afraid we will go CB in the first OG in the 2nd.

Mangold and Toth would make perfect sense since Mangold got cut and Toth will be around a 3rd rounder.

Just seems Zeit is as good as gone. I don't think you give enough credit to Rex, while it was not a ton of snaps he played
much better than Gio and Hill behind the same O-line and is quick, has good vision, great hands and has no quit in him.

I would bring back Whitworth and Burkhead and still draft a RB like Kamara with our RB situation.

Sure hope we don't go CB in the first, i think we will be fine with what we have even if Kirkpatrick and Adam are gone.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-06-2017, 11:56 PM)BenZoo2 Wrote: Me too.  I thought Nelson was one those better to let go a yearly than keep a year too late.  This year will show the beginning of his decline, if any.

Same, i guess we were wrong this time around. Oh well can't cry over spilled milk.

(03-07-2017, 12:04 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Reggie Nelson around for another year or two certainly would have softened the blow of losing Vance Joseph from the coaching staff.  The combined loss of Coach Joseph, along with veteran Safety Reggie Nelson left the Safety position is great turmoil for at least half of the season.  Now, to be sure, the Bengals DB coach Kevin Coyle certainly had his hands full, not only a primary loss at Safety, but also a loss of Leon Hall, and the untimely season ending injury to 1st round pick WJIII. 

I was quite hard on the organization for allowing what was a great Defensive Backfield and Coaching combination to fall apart in a rather short period of time.  However, as the season went on, not only did the Safety play improve, but the entire secondary seemed to regain it's footing.

I also know where the real holes on this team are, personnel wise.  On the defensive side of the ball, we need a DE and LB much more than we need a Safety.  However, if a guy like Malik Hooker is sitting there at 9 you pretty much have to take him, or at least get a handsome ransom from a team that sees him as their missing piece. 

Nice post Sunset, when you think about it, it was understandable why the Secondary had as many problems as it
did early last year when you take all this into consideration. Coyle did a good job considering, always liked the guy
before he went to Miami.

DE and LB are definately bigger needs but i agree, a player like Hooker is extremely rare and if he is anything like
Ed Reed like many of us compare him to you have to take him like you say. Would bring a new element to our D.

BPA in the first baby. I am also really liking Hassan Reddick the closer we get to the draft. He can play LB or DE,
cover and rush the passer. I think this guy will be a star and i like him better than either Cunningham or Foster
now cause he is a much better pass rusher than both of them.

[SunsetBengal]

(03-07-2017, 02:42 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Same, i guess we were wrong this time around. Oh well can't cry over spilled milk.


Nice post Sunset, when you think about it, it was understandable why the Secondary had as many problems as it
did early last year when you take all this into consideration. Coyle did a good job considering, always liked the guy
before he went to Miami.

DE and LB are definately bigger needs but i agree, a player like Hooker is extremely rare and if he is anything like
Ed Reed like many of us compare him to you have to take him like you say. Would bring a new element to our D.

BPA in the first baby. I am also really liking Hassan Reddick the closer we get to the draft. He can play LB or DE,
cover and rush the passer. I think this guy will be a star and i like him better than either Cunningham or Foster
now cause he is a much better pass rusher than both of them.

I've noticed Reddick's stock shooting up, after his combine performance.  I'll have to take some time and really look at some of his game film.  Every year team's fall victim to falling in love with the Champions of the Underwear Olympics.

[McC]

(03-07-2017, 02:31 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I think if they don't bring Whitworth back Cam Robinson will be the leading candidate at 9.

That is the problem if they lose their good player/players, it does affect the draft.


Mangold and Toth would make perfect sense since Mangold got cut and Toth will be around a 3rd rounder.

Just seems Zeit is as good as gone. I don't think you give enough credit to Rex, while it was not a ton of snaps he played
much better than Gio and Hill behind the same O-line and is quick, has good vision, great hands and has no quit in him.

I would bring back Whitworth and Burkhead and still draft a RB like Kamara with our RB situation.

Sure hope we don't go CB in the first, i think we will be fine with what we have even if Kirkpatrick and Adam are gone.

Really hope the pick at 9 is not Cam Robinson.  That would be a big reach.  Many people don't even think he will be a LT at the next level.  That, to me, would be a bone headed desperation move and the quickest way to blow the draft.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-07-2017, 02:46 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I've noticed Reddick's stock shooting up, after his combine performance.  I'll have to take some time and really look at some of his game film.  Every year team's fall victim to falling in love with the Champions of the Underwear Olympics.

Eh, it is not just cause of the combine. The dude is a damn fine football player.

Do watch some film on Reddick Sunset. I will be willing to bet he will impress you.

He impressed me last year when i watched him, i was hoping he would be a Bengal then.

His good combine performance just raised his stock with other people.

I always thought he was better than where he was rated early on.

I sure hope he is in stripes rather than piss yellow and black.

(03-07-2017, 02:46 PM)McC Wrote: Really hope the pick at 9 is not Cam Robinson.  That would be a big reach.  Many people don't even think he will be a LT at the next level.  That, to me, would be a bone headed desperation move and the quickest way to blow the draft.

I feel the same way which is why it would be completely stupid to not atleast bring back Whitworth.

[McC]

(03-07-2017, 03:04 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Eh, it is not just cause of the combine. The dude is a damn fine football player.

Do watch some film on Reddick Sunset. I will be willing to bet he will impress you.

He impressed me last year when i watched him, i was hoping he would be a Bengal then.

His good combine performance just raised his stock with other people.

I always thought he was better than where he was rated early on.

I sure hope he is in stripes rather than piss yellow and black.


I feel the same way which is why it would be completely stupid to not atleast bring back Whitworth.

He's the one guy whose loss we couldn't overcome.  And I hope PA gets no say in this.  I can just hear him promising CedO will be ready.

Now, something to consider is how much would Whit want to come back if all the other guys are allowed to leave?  Will he think he can get a ring here?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-07-2017, 03:09 PM)McC Wrote: He's the one guy whose loss we couldn't overcome.  And I hope PA gets no say in this.  I can just hear him promising CedO will be ready.

Now, something to consider is how much would Whit want to come back if all the other guys are allowed to leave?  Will he think he can get a ring here?

I think the biggest problem is PA, he just keeps biting us in the ass. He should of been replaced right after the
season was over for starting Ogbuehi as long as he did to the detriment of the team. If Whit does not come back
i bet PA still being here is the biggest reason for it. He won't say that though.

If Whit comes back he will need reassurance. Tell him we will add the players needed for once in FA.

That would bring him back i believe.

If Whit is back i will not be negative anymore cause there will be changes IMO. If not, we know whats up.

Ineptness.