Value of Positions

[BengalFanInNJ]

We heard that the Bengals wouldn't even try to re-sign Zeitler because the market will dictate that he is worth about $10-12m a year and the Bengals don't think a Guard should be valued that high. My issue with this line of thinking is every year, every position's "value" will increase. Whomever is a solid Guard next year and is a free agent may easily surpass Zeitler's contract. I bet you that by year 3 of his contract, his value will be average. Unless the Bengals draft a solid Guard who will be good but not great, they will have to ultimately pay big bucks to get one. Are we to expect that any of our draftees who become very good to great will only remain on the team if we can get them to re-sign with us at a discount? I sure hope not. To be fair, they have signed past players to big contracts (Palmer, Green, Dalton).

What happens if Westerman (or even Boling) is a washout and gets Dalton hurt? Isn't the QB position arguably the highest value on the team? Would it not be prudent to invest in protection of your high value asset? The Left Tackle position is the highest value on the offensive line and this makes sense. The current replacement we have looked terrible last year at what should have been an easier position.

I'm not saying they should have paid Zeitler what he got from the Browns even though they have the money to do so. However, the Bengals are going in with way too many unknowns on the offensive line, a position group that wasn't strong to begin with. The two best players in a weak group are now gone. Their replacements (so far) are a guy who hasn't played a snap and a first round pick who was awful last year. If I'm Andy Dalton, I'm seriously doubting my teams commitment to me. Sure, they may make a move to sign someone, but who's left that is an improvement? TJ Lang? Ask the Cowboys how important an offensive line is after seeing how Ezekiel Elliot had the success he had in Dallas.

I do agree with the Bengals philosophy of not diving into free agency and sign a ton of players. It rarely works. The Browns will be a better team next year, but I don't think they will be close to making the playoffs and how hard is it to improve from 1-15? That said, signing a player that fits here and there is wise as opposed to worrying about comp picks for the next year. I just hope that when the draft comes they don't reach for a position of need. The draft is a crapshoot and relying solely on draft choices is not prudent.

Sorry for the long winded post. I don't think I'm saying anything that wasn't already said but maybe someone who disagrees can explain where I'm off. I won't be offended.

[muskiesfan]

Welcome to the bizarro world of Mike Brown. We value skill position players here, not OLine. We value the cheapest or what can save us money, not high priced players or free agents. Which costs less, a comp pick or free agent? You guessed it! That's why we want to accumulate comp picks. Haven't you been listening to we draft, develop, and keep our own? Of course that's only true if they give us some sort of hometown discount. We do not give big money to re-sign our own unless they play a skilled position, period.

If people haven't figured out that we have the worst owner/GM in professional sports, I don't know what to tell you. As long as Mike Brown owns and runs this team, we're never going to see the success we dream of.

[BengalChris]

Mikey Brown's vision of the game of football, the NFL and players:



And what is worse is that he's corrupted the whole organization to match his blindness.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

You're right, and who knows, had they been aggressive and signed him prior to last season, he may have been a good deal as early as next offseason.  They can't see past their noses.....I mean dollars.

[Whatever]

(03-10-2017, 12:14 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: Welcome to the bizarro world of Mike Brown. We value skill position players here, not OLine. We value the cheapest or what can save us money, not high priced players or free agents. Which costs less, a comp pick or free agent? You guessed it! That's why we want to accumulate comp picks. Haven't you been listening to we draft, develop, and keep our own? Of course that's only true if they give us some sort of hometown discount. We do not give big money to re-sign our own unless they play a skilled position, period.

If people haven't figured out that we have the worst owner/GM in professional sports, I don't know what to tell you. As long as Mike Brown owns and runs this team, we're never going to see the success we dream of.

To be fair, the Bengals have spent more 1st round picks on the OL in Marvin's tenure(5, Willie, Levi, Andre, Z, Og) than QB(1, Carson), WR(1, AJ), and RB(1,Perry) combined.  Zeitler is the first of those to not get a second contract.  I realize everyone is pxssed, but to say they don't value OL is a false narrative.

[THE PISTONS]

The cap was $120 million in 2012. It's going to be $167 million this upcoming season. Yes...that's a $47 million increase. The cap has risen 39% from it's 2012 rate.


In 2012, IF we signed Zeitler for $8 million a year...I'm sure fans would be happy. Well...$8 million in 2012 is equivalent to $12 million now.

The same thing is happening in the NBA.

[muskiesfan]

(03-10-2017, 01:35 PM)Whatever Wrote: To be fair, the Bengals have spent more 1st round picks on the OL in Marvin's tenure(5, Willie, Levi, Andre, Z, Og) than QB(1, Carson), WR(1, AJ), and RB(1,Perry) combined.  Zeitler is the first of those to not get a second contract.  I realize everyone is pxssed, but to say they don't value OL is a false narrative.

Willie was re-signed twice to contracts that paid him $6m per year and then was cut because he wouldn't take a pay cut. Levi was signed to an extension that paid him $5m per year and was cut when Andre was drafted. I understand the cap was lower at the time, but the Bengals weren't exactly breaking the bank for their top performing offensive lineman. Andre was re-signed on the cheap because he misjudged his market value. The Bengals didn't overwhelm him with a deal, the market just wasn't there for him. Zeitler wasn't even offered a contract (per Hobson) and Ogbuehi is still under his rookie contract.

I stand by my statement that the Bengals do not value OLine, especially compared to skill positions. The team themselves have said that they do not value interior OLine. While I also agree that the Browns severely overpaid for Zeitler's services, the Bengals didn't even try.

[THE PISTONS]

(03-10-2017, 01:45 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: Willie was re-signed twice to contracts that paid him $6m per year and then was cut because he wouldn't take a pay cut. Levi was signed to an extension that paid him $5m per year and was cut when Andre was drafted. I understand the cap was lower at the time, but the Bengals weren't exactly breaking the bank for their top performing offensive lineman. Andre was re-signed on the cheap because he misjudged his market value. The Bengals didn't overwhelm him with a deal, the market just wasn't there for him. Zeitler wasn't even offered a contract (per Hobson) and Ogbuehi is still under his rookie contract.

I stand by my statement that the Bengals do not value OLine, especially compared to skill positions. The team themselves have said that they do not value interior OLine. While I also agree that the Browns severely overpaid for Zeitler's services, the Bengals didn't even try.

Willie signed a 5-year, $32 million deal with the Bengals in 2006. The salary cap was $102.5 million then.  The cap has increased by 63% from then. So say Willie made $7 million in Year 1 back then...that's equivalent to $11 million in todays dollars.

[muskiesfan]

(03-10-2017, 01:50 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Willie signed a 5-year, $32 million deal with the Bengals in 2006. The salary cap was $102.5 million then.  The cap has increased by 63% from then. So say Willie made $7 million in Year 1 back then...that's equivalent to $11 million in todays dollars.

I understand that and made that statement in my post that the cap was different. However, is $11m per year for a top tier LT considered top dollar? The Bengals pay what they're comfortable paying. They do not go big for positions other than skill players.

[*ochocincos*]

It's clear the Bengals value one position over all....cornerback.
Their depth at CB is ridiculous and they are signing DK for over $10 mill a year.

OT is valued somewhat high, but the Bengals apparently didn't want to go over $10 million a year for OT, even if it was Whitworth.

WR1 and QB are obviously high, but the other WRs are not valued high. All other WRs on the team make less than $5 mill a year.

DL is highly valued, but also right around that $10 mill a year max range. Geno's cap hit averages $10 mill a year over the next two years, Dunlap just over $7 mill the next two years. MJ about $5.5 million a year for the next two years.
(Btw, isn't it scary that Dunlap, Atkins, and MJ all have expiring contracts at the end of 2018 season?)

The next tier of value is at safety with Iloka averaging $6 mill a year and Shawn Williams averages $5 mill a year.
Then LB, where Burfict is the highest LB with just under $5 mill a year.

Given the fact the Bengals clearly value WR1, QB, CB, LT, then DL, I don't expect them to draft anything else in the first round from now on.

[*bengalfan74*]

(03-10-2017, 12:14 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: Welcome to the bizarro world of Mike Brown. We value skill position players here, not OLine. We value the cheapest or what can save us money, not high priced players or free agents. Which costs less, a comp pick or free agent? You guessed it! That's why we want to accumulate comp picks. Haven't you been listening to we draft, develop, and keep our own? Of course that's only true if they give us some sort of hometown discount. We do not give big money to re-sign our own unless they play a skilled position, period.

If people haven't figured out that we have the worst owner/GM in professional sports, I don't know what to tell you. As long as Mike Brown owns and runs this team, we're never going to see the success we dream of.

Truth

[Sabretooth]

(03-10-2017, 12:14 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: Welcome to the bizarro world of Mike Brown. We value skill position players here, not OLine. We value the cheapest or what can save us money, not high priced players or free agents. Which costs less, a comp pick or free agent? You guessed it!

If people haven't figured out that we have the worst owner/GM in professional sports, I don't know what to tell you. As long as Mike Brown owns and runs this team, we're never going to see the success we dream of.

Some people know the cost of everything but not the value.

[THE PISTONS]

(03-10-2017, 01:53 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: I understand that and made that statement in my post that the cap was different. However, is $11m per year for a top tier LT considered top dollar? The Bengals pay what they're comfortable paying. They do not go big for positions other than skill players.

Your point is valid that the Bengals set a value that they are comfortable with and stick to it. When guys hit free agency, if a team offers over that value...the Bengals let them leave.

The Bengals then cite getting a compensatory pick as being a strategy despite the fact that most of our compensatory picks have been terrible.

[muskiesfan]

(03-10-2017, 02:54 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Your point is valid that the Bengals set a value that they are comfortable with and stick to it. When guys hit free agency, if a team offers over that value...the Bengals let them leave.

The Bengals then cite getting a compensatory pick as being a strategy despite the fact that most of our compensatory picks have been terrible.

I think that's the thing that gets me the most. They seriously overvalue comp picks. I agree that comp picks have more value now that they can be traded, but I don't understand letting guys walk and not replacing them just to stack comp picks. That is such a flawed logic to follow.

[Whatever]

(03-10-2017, 01:45 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: Willie was re-signed twice to contracts that paid him $6m per year and then was cut because he wouldn't take a pay cut. Levi was signed to an extension that paid him $5m per year and was cut when Andre was drafted. I understand the cap was lower at the time, but the Bengals weren't exactly breaking the bank for their top performing offensive lineman. Andre was re-signed on the cheap because he misjudged his market value. The Bengals didn't overwhelm him with a deal, the market just wasn't there for him. Zeitler wasn't even offered a contract (per Hobson) and Ogbuehi is still under his rookie contract.

I stand by my statement that the Bengals do not value OLine, especially compared to skill positions. The team themselves have said that they do not value interior OLine. While I also agree that the Browns severely overpaid for Zeitler's services, the Bengals didn't even try.

Willie's 1st extension made him the highest paid RT in the league.  He was asked to take a pay cut after missing 11 starts with injury the previous year.  After his release, he limped through one injury plaques season in Baltimore before retiring.

Jones missed 20 starts in three years before he was cut, then signed with Washington and started a handful of games before landing on IR and washing out of the league. Point being, both guys were washed up and physically done in by the time they cut the cord.

They tried to extend Zeitler last year, and couldn't agree to terms.  Obviously, they were far apart, which is why they didn't make an offer. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-10-2017, 05:01 PM)Whatever Wrote: Willie's 1st extension made him the highest paid RT in the league.  He was asked to take a pay cut after missing 11 starts with injury the previous year.  After his release, he limped through one injury plaques season in Baltimore before retiring.

Jones missed 20 starts in three years before he was cut, then signed with Washington and started a handful of games before landing on IR and washing out of the league. Point being, both guys were washed up and physically done in by the time they cut the cord.

They tried to extend Zeitler last year, and couldn't agree to terms.  Obviously, they were far apart, which is why they didn't make an offer. 

Ah....but the year before they offered him Clint Boling money, aka lowballed him, and were forced to exercise the 5th year option.  Had they just ponied up a little dough then, and extended him like they said they were gonna do, we wouldn't be in this current predicament.  We could have probably inked him in the 8-10 mil range....just a hunch.

[THE PISTONS]

(03-10-2017, 05:55 PM)Wyche Wrote: Ah....but the year before they offered him Clint Boling money, aka lowballed him, and were forced to exercise the 5th year option.  Had they just ponied up a little dough then, and extended him like they said they were gonna do, we wouldn't be in this current predicament.  We could have probably inked him in the 8-10 mil range....just a hunch.

Yeah low-balling a player and then increases the offer makes them upset. It's not like these guys have no other options.

They essentially did the same thing with Whitworth by spreading rumors that it was a done deal that he'd be back.

The Bengals negotiate with free agents like they are buying a used car.

[Bengal Dude]

(03-10-2017, 06:00 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yeah low-balling a player and then increases the offer makes them upset. It's not like these guys have no other options.

They essentially did the same thing with Whitworth by spreading rumors that it was a done deal that he'd be back.

The Bengals negotiate with free agents like they are buying a used car.

From the sounds of it, the Bengals had an offer to Whit and believed he was going to take it after testing the market. Then the Rams backed up the money truck to him and he was off to LA.

[Murdock2420]

(03-10-2017, 01:44 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The cap was $120 million in 2012. It's going to be $167 million this upcoming season. Yes...that's a $47 million increase. The cap has risen 39% from it's 2012 rate.


In 2012, IF we signed Zeitler for $8 million a year...I'm sure fans would be happy. Well...$8 million in 2012 is equivalent to $12 million now.

The same thing is happening in the NBA.

This is what the Bengals fail at and something I have bitched about over and over.

Why they screw around and let players actually hit the point of FA.

Sign them with a year left. Sure, that first year may seem like they are near the top of their position $$$ wise, but then a funny thing happens. The cap goes up, and guys get bigger and bigger contracts, meanwhile you have a guy locked up for 4 or 5 years who is a top guy at his position that is being paid near the middle of the pack.

Other teams seem to understand this concept, but Mikey...nope he can't commit to anything besides a mediocre head coach. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-10-2017, 06:14 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: This is what the Bengals fail at and something I have bitched about over and over.

Why they screw around and let players actually hit the point of FA.

Sign them with a year left. Sure, that first year may seem like they are near the top of their position $$$ wise, but then a funny thing happens. The cap goes up, and guys get bigger and bigger contracts, meanwhile you have a guy locked up for 4 or 5 years who is a top guy at his position that is being paid near the middle of the pack.

Other teams seem to understand this concept, but Mikey...nope he can't commit to anything besides a mediocre head coach. 

....you forgot the just plain shitty o line coach.