All this talk about what positions the Bengals value got me thinking

[Housh]

Does anyone really know what positions the Bengals or any team value?


All this Free agency iv been hearing the phrase "The Bengals don't value interior lineman" a lot and it got me thinking which positions we DO value. We clearly USED to value the WR position because for the most part I remember us always having a good amount of money locked up in the position at any one time up until the year TJ Houshmanzadeh left. After that you see if become totally content with our format of 1 great WR then 3 other cheap role player types.

Actually around this time a lot of what we did began to revolve more operating at the lowest cost possible. Just a quick snapshot of the 2005-2006 teams that for all intents and purposes was a player in the superbowl picture if Carson didn't go down in the 1st. That team had a high paid offensive line, and high paid secondary and the skill position starters were all high paid. The positions we clearly saved money on was TE, FB, LB, and D line.


That trend went on for a couple years then starting in about 2011 it seems like we stopped valuing every position but QB. We drafted Dalton and AJ Green that year and its clear. When you look at the roster year by year from 2006 to 2011 and you check the departures and signings its very clear. EXACTLY in 2011 someone in the front office(Mike Brown) changed the philosophy to build completely through the draft. After 2011 we didn't even TRY to hit on big free agents. After 2011 we stopped locking up big money in one position NO MATTER WHAT POSITION IT WAS. I mean we went full bargain bin at WR. We had the nerve to start Armon Binns at WR. At this point the only positions with big money locked up are offensive line and defensive line. Then year by year up until 2016 we see a sharp decline in valuing of certain positions and the team mindset turns to 'build through the draft while attempting to safeguard money as much as possible". It hurt us that we had some amazing drafts before the Andy AJ draft and had another decent one right after, because Mike Brown used those drafts to give the illusion that his plan was working. At the start of this build through the draft shift of focus, we had a leftover offensive and defensive line that was proven. As we changed those pieces we start to see Mikes plan get exposed.

As of now the only positions we value despite financial considerations are QB and WR. We have shifted focus away from what made us so amazing when we had a top 5 o line in the NFL and have turned into a cheap excuse for a franchise that says stupid shit like "We don't value interior lineman"

And ppl wonder why we cant win a playoff game. Everyone in the franchise simply isn't willing to do what it takes to make it happen

[Shake n Blake]

I was going to make a thread about what positions the Bengals value, but abandoned it. I'll go ahead and post the research for ya though. Since Mike Brown took over, we've had 28 first round picks. Here's the positions they've selected during that time:

CB x 5 (all in the last 11 drafts)
DE x 4 (counting Reinard Wilson as a DE. Last one was Justin Smith in 2001)
LB x 4
OT x 4
QB x 3
RB x 2
WR x 2
TE x 2
DT x 1
OG x 1

No centers or safeties were taken. Only 1 interior lineman total. Obviously Mike has allowed guys like Steinbach and Zeitler to walk without much seriousness about replacing them. Center also seems like a position that they just think they can plug any scrub into.

[TKUHL]

I posted something similar to this a few months ago. I just went back to the year Marvin was hired to try and find a trend as to what positions they are more likely to pick high in the draft. It blew my mind how little they seemed to value DT and the interior line especially Center. I know under Marvin a Center was drafted no higher than the 4th round. But at the same time you don't see many Guards or Centers if any going in the top 10 which is where we drafted at least half of the MB years. Still though no C before the 4th....man. Maybe that changes this year.

[*bengalfan74*]

Saving money

All this comp pick BS is just Mike Brown lining his pockets. This years team will struggle to reach .500 book it. And we'll soon be talking about comp picks again. Meanwhile our core will continue slipping away.

[xxlt]

(03-25-2017, 01:08 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I was going to make a thread about what positions the Bengals value, but abandoned it. I'll go ahead and post the research for ya though. Since Mike Brown took over, we've had 28 first round picks. Here's the positions they've selected during that time:

CB x 5 (all in the last 11 drafts)
DE x 4 (counting Reinard Wilson as a DE. Last one was Justin Smith in 2001)
LB x 4
OT x 4
QB x 3
RB x 2
WR x 2
TE x 2
DT x 1
OG x 1

No centers or safeties were taken. Only 1 interior lineman total. Obviously Mike has allowed guys like Steinbach and Zeitler to walk without much seriousness about replacing them. Center also seems like a position that they just think they can plug any scrub into.

Thinking about how pass driven the league is, this valuation system isn't completely crazy.

[Luvnit2]

(03-25-2017, 12:51 AM)Housh Wrote: Does anyone really know what positions the Bengals or any team value?


All this Free agency iv been hearing the phrase "The Bengals don't value interior lineman" a lot and it got me thinking which positions we DO value. We clearly USED to value the WR position because for the most part I remember us always having a good amount of money locked up in the position at any one time up until the year TJ Houshmanzadeh left. After that you see if become totally content with our format of 1 great WR then 3 other cheap role player types.

Actually around this time a lot of what we did began to revolve more operating at the lowest cost possible. Just a quick snapshot of the 2005-2006 teams that for all intents and purposes was a player in the superbowl picture if Carson didn't go down in the 1st. That team had a high paid offensive line, and high paid secondary and the skill position starters were all high paid. The positions we clearly saved money on was TE, FB, LB, and D line.


That trend went on for a couple years then starting in about 2011 it seems like we stopped valuing every position but QB. We drafted Dalton and AJ Green that year and its clear. When you look at the roster year by year from 2006 to 2011 and you check the departures and signings its very clear. EXACTLY in 2011 someone in the front office(Mike Brown) changed the philosophy to build completely through the draft. After 2011 we didn't even TRY to hit on big free agents. After 2011 we stopped locking up big money in one position NO MATTER WHAT POSITION IT WAS. I mean we went full bargain bin at WR. We had the nerve to start Armon Binns at WR. At this point the only positions with big money locked up are offensive line and defensive line. Then year by year up until 2016 we see a sharp decline in valuing of certain positions and the team mindset turns to 'build through the draft while attempting to safeguard money as much as possible". It hurt us that we had some amazing drafts before the Andy AJ draft and had another decent one right after, because Mike Brown used those drafts to give the illusion that his plan was working. At the start of this build through the draft shift of focus, we had a leftover offensive and defensive line that was proven. As we changed those pieces we start to see Mikes plan get exposed.

As of now the only positions we value despite financial considerations are QB and WR. We have shifted focus away from what made us so amazing when we had a top 5 o line in the NFL and have turned into a cheap excuse for a franchise that says stupid shit like "We don't value interior lineman"

And ppl wonder why we cant win a playoff game. Everyone in the franchise simply isn't willing to do what it takes to make it happen

A lot of teams changed in 2011, because a new CBA was signed which changed the rookie pool significantly. The old CBA paid 1st round rookies more money than veterans (not even close) so the old CBA front offices had to take huge risks with players who had never taken an NFL snap. Now and after the new CBA (cap space has went way up and not down) money went to the vets. If you look closely at the Bengals, early on they were able to keep almost every veteran on their 2nd or 3rd contract if they desired. The last 2 years, it has been an issue. Why? Simple, AJ Green and Dalton had team friendly contracts for 4 years due to lower rookie pool, then they got paid with huge second contracts. Geno and Dunlap got huge 2nd contracts.

Look closely at the pay for franchised players and you will see the "Value" positions who get big bucks. DE, OL, CB, QB and WR are high paid if franchised in some cases double over LB, RB, DT, Safety and other positions. So, yes MB and the FO is smart, they realize if they can get a quality LT in the draft for 5 million a year for 5 years (1st round picks have 5th year options) versus having to pay 10 million plus a year in FA or for a veteran, it allows them more money to spend on other positions.

If you look at the team's spending since the new CBA, you will see they spend more than a lot of NFL big market teams and spend more than their fair share going above the CBA requirements for caps spending. My point is the team is spending the money and no one can see MB is just pocketing profits so not a money (spend) issue, it is a performance issue of coaches and players not getting it done in spite of many experts saying the talent (so team through draft and FA did well) was there. Players lost the Steeler's playoff game, not coaches. Just my humble opinion.

[Pat5775]

I think part of the reason the team values comp picks so much is because younger players are more reliable than seasoned vets now. Early retirement is all the rage these days, any given minute any player can up and retire. For crying out loud, Ben almost wanted to quit after this past season (allegedly... Who knows what that douche is thinking. Could have been another cry for attention). I don't agree with it, but I get it.

Back on topic, it's no secret that Mike Brown values franchise QB's above all else. That's not bad from a management standpoint, finding a great QB can set your team up for success for a decade or more. But the downside is, Mike doesn't seem to value protecting his investments. Letting your QB rot behind a shitty offensive line will kill their careers, no matter how talented the QB. Keeping Paul Alexander around shows he doesn't think the offensive line is very important when it comes to wins and losses.... It is. It's vitally important. Football is a game won and lost in the trenches. That's basic pop warner knowledge but it seems lost on our owner/president/ceo/GM

[Luvnit2]

(03-25-2017, 11:16 AM)Pat5775 Wrote: I think part of the reason the team values comp picks so much is because younger players are more reliable than seasoned vets now. Early retirement is all the rage these days, any given minute any player can up and retire. For crying out loud, Ben almost wanted to quit after this past season (allegedly... Who knows what that douche is thinking. Could have been another cry for attention). I don't agree with it, but I get it.

Back on topic, it's no secret that Mike Brown values franchise QB's above all else. That's not bad from a management standpoint, finding a great QB can set your team up for success for a decade or more. But the downside is, Mike doesn't seem to value protecting his investments. Letting your QB rot behind a shitty offensive line will kill their careers, no matter how talented the QB. Keeping Paul Alexander around shows he doesn't think the offensive line is very important when it comes to wins and losses.... It is. It's vitally important. Football is a game won and lost in the trenches. That's basic pop warner knowledge but it seems lost on our owner/president/ceo/GM

No doubt the trenches on both sides of the ball win games. I would argue other than this year, the past 10 years MB has done a great job with the trenches. He wanted Whitt, but he was offered an over the top contract (overpaid) for his 35 year old body. Zeitler I believe is now the #1 paid guard in the league, is he that great. I say no. MB drafted 2 OT in round 1 and 2 in 2015 so made huge investments for the trenches future as he already had starters in place.

The key is Ced, Jake and others stepping up to earn the paycheck, in year 3 a 1st and 2nd round pick should be ready to not only start, but start at a high level. On the DL front, he signed Geno, Dunlap, Mj and Peko to 2nd and 3rd contracts.

I miss 100% any accuracy you saying MB has not tried to protect AD.

[fredtoast]

(03-25-2017, 10:58 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: If you look at the team's spending since the new CBA, you will see they spend more than a lot of NFL big market teams and spend more than their fair share going above the CBA requirements for caps spending. My point is the team is spending the money and no one can see MB is just pocketing profits so not a money (spend) issue, it is a performance issue of coaches and players not getting it done 

You can repeat these facts over and over again, but people will just ignore tham and act like the Bengals just don't spend any money.

For example over a 11 year period we let 2 OGs walk because they became the highest paid players in the league at their position.  Obviously every other team in the leagu lets players walk under these condictions.  that is where all of the free agents on the market come from.  

Some people th8ink that the Bengals are the only teamin the league that lets quality players walk for big contracts, but at the same time they say that the Bengals should sign some of the free agnets that are on the market looking for big contracts.  How can they possibly believe that no other teams let players walk, but at the same time there are players available on the free agent market.

[Hammerstripes]

The Steelers had no issues signing DeCastro. They also shelled out big money for Brown and Bell.

It's all how you view things. We had the room to sign Z. Mike Brown didn't want to do it.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

What really stands out to me is the lack of interest in upgrading the interior of the Lines early.

Center and DT are very important positions. We draft these guys in the mid rounds instead of early.

I think this needs to change depending on the players that are there.

If we would of picked Unger over Maualuga in the 2nd this team probably would be in a much better place.

We definately value CB very high as we should in this passing league. We like our weapons.

Just wish we valued Center and DT as high. Games are won in the trenches.

I love Geno and Billings but i think we got a bit lucky with these guys being around in the 4th.

[bengalhoel]

(03-25-2017, 01:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You can repeat these facts over and over again, but people will just ignore tham and act like the Bengals just don't spend any money.

For example over a 11 year period we let 2 OGs walk because they became the highest paid players in the league at their position.  Obviously every other team in the leagu lets players walk under these condictions.  that is where all of the free agents on the market come from.  

Some people th8ink that the Bengals are the only teamin the league that lets quality players walk for big contracts, but at the same time they say that the Bengals should sign some of the free agnets that are on the market looking for big contracts.  How can they possibly believe that no other teams let players walk, but at the same time there are players available on the free agent market.

The problem isn't that they don't spend, it is the fact they have no replacement plan when free agents leave. Well I shouldn't say they have no plan, just not a good one. I would not have kept Zeitler or Whitworth at that price either but after looking at the offensive line roster it gets really scary.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-25-2017, 02:43 PM)bengalhoel Wrote: The problem isn't that they don't spend, it is the fact they have no replacement plan when free agents leave. Well I shouldn't say they have no plan, just not a good one. I would not have kept Zeitler or Whitworth at that price either but after looking at the offensive line roster it gets really scary.

I guess their plan was Westerman/TJ Johnson/Hopkins and now Andre at RG and Ogbuehi at LT.

Yeah, not the best. Hopefully these replacements work out.

[bengalhoel]

(03-25-2017, 02:48 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I guess their plan was Westerman/TJ Johnson/Hopkins and now Andre at RG and Ogbuehi at LT.

Yeah, not the best. Hopefully these replacements work out.

Maybe Alexander will coach out of his mind this year. 

[BengalChris]

(03-25-2017, 10:58 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: A lot of teams changed in 2011, because a new CBA was signed which changed the rookie pool significantly. The old CBA paid 1st round rookies more money than veterans (not even close) so the old CBA front offices had to take huge risks with players who had never taken an NFL snap. Now and after the new CBA (cap space has went way up and not down) money went to the vets. If you look closely at the Bengals, early on they were able to keep almost every veteran on their 2nd or 3rd contract if they desired. The last 2 years, it has been an issue. Why? Simple, AJ Green and Dalton had team friendly contracts for 4 years due to lower rookie pool, then they got paid with huge second contracts. Geno and Dunlap got huge 2nd contracts.

Look closely at the pay for franchised players and you will see the "Value" positions who get big bucks. DE, OL, CB, QB and WR are high paid if franchised in some cases double over LB, RB, DT, Safety and other positions. So, yes MB and the FO is smart, they realize if they can get a quality LT in the draft for 5 million a year for 5 years (1st round picks have 5th year options) versus having to pay 10 million plus a year in FA or for a veteran, it allows them more money to spend on other positions.

If you look at the team's spending since the new CBA, you will see they spend more than a lot of NFL big market teams and spend more than their fair share going above the CBA requirements for caps spending. My point is the team is spending the money and no one can see MB is just pocketing profits so not a money (spend) issue, it is a performance issue of coaches and players not getting it done in spite of many experts saying the talent (so team through draft and FA did well) was there. Players lost the Steeler's playoff game, not coaches. Just my humble opinion.

That only works if you select a quality LT though. If you select a overvalued injured guy who's weak, then you end up with an overvalued, weak LT you are overpaying for years and you offense will suffer for it and your fans will call you names.

[Joelist]

(03-25-2017, 10:58 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: A lot of teams changed in 2011, because a new CBA was signed which changed the rookie pool significantly. The old CBA paid 1st round rookies more money than veterans (not even close) so the old CBA front offices had to take huge risks with players who had never taken an NFL snap. Now and after the new CBA (cap space has went way up and not down) money went to the vets. If you look closely at the Bengals, early on they were able to keep almost every veteran on their 2nd or 3rd contract if they desired. The last 2 years, it has been an issue. Why? Simple, AJ Green and Dalton had team friendly contracts for 4 years due to lower rookie pool, then they got paid with huge second contracts. Geno and Dunlap got huge 2nd contracts.

Look closely at the pay for franchised players and you will see the "Value" positions who get big bucks. DE, OL, CB, QB and WR are high paid if franchised in some cases double over LB, RB, DT, Safety and other positions. So, yes MB and the FO is smart, they realize if they can get a quality LT in the draft for 5 million a year for 5 years (1st round picks have 5th year options) versus having to pay 10 million plus a year in FA or for a veteran, it allows them more money to spend on other positions.

If you look at the team's spending since the new CBA, you will see they spend more than a lot of NFL big market teams and spend more than their fair share going above the CBA requirements for caps spending. My point is the team is spending the money and no one can see MB is just pocketing profits so not a money (spend) issue, it is a performance issue of coaches and players not getting it done in spite of many experts saying the talent (so team through draft and FA did well) was there. Players lost the Steeler's playoff game, not coaches. Just my humble opinion.

In order for this thinking to work you have to play the draftees right away and they have to perform at a high level right away. Every game you don't play them the value reduces if you have no intention of reupping them. If you want time to develop players and then to benefit from that development, you basically have to keep the high round draftees at least for one deal beyond the rookie contract. Otherwise you're just coaching up players for other teams to benefit from. 

Based on this, we should be working to extend our higher round picks a minimum of a year before the option year kicks in. That way we giv e the player time to develop and give ourselves time to benefit. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-25-2017, 03:28 PM)bengalhoel Wrote: Maybe Alexander will coach out of his mind this year. 

Doubt it. Hope so but i doubt it.

What truly sucks is it seems it doesn't matter how bad of a job he does, he will still be around.

Another reason why letting Whit go was such a mistake, he was a coach on the field.

[Housh]

I don't think it was Whit's salary that turned us off, its the fact that he wouldn't have taken a deal for 1 year

[muskiesfan]

(03-25-2017, 10:58 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: If you look at the team's spending since the new CBA, you will see they spend more than a lot of NFL big market teams and spend more than their fair share going above the CBA requirements for caps spending. My point is the team is spending the money and no one can see MB is just pocketing profits so not a money (spend) issue, it is a performance issue of coaches and players not getting it done in spite of many experts saying the talent (so team through draft and FA did well) was there. Players lost the Steeler's playoff game, not coaches. Just my humble opinion.

They spend more because they rollover money every year which gives them a higher adjusted cap. So spending over the salary cap because of their additional cap space isn't the issue. The issue is that they still don't spend to their adjusted cap. They continue to roll money over. That skews the numbers. Each year, the Bengals have additional money to spend, but they don't spend it. It gets kicked further down the road. Add in that they keep one of (if not the) the highest amounts for injuries that they barely use and you can find where money isn't always spent.

[ItsOdellThurman]

The Bengals value whatever they can get at the best value.