Voch Lombardi's Mock Pick for Bengals at #9

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-28-2017, 12:04 PM)Au165 Wrote: Just don't see it. Lafell didn't get paid to not start opposite AJ. We spent a 2nd on Boyd last year and he performed well. The coaches are really high on Cody Core and Alex Erickson. Frankly, I see us taking a mid to late round WR and the rest are UDFA.

Look at what Atlanta paid Sanu to be there 3rd or 4th option.  The offense needs MUCH more than just AJ and Eifert.  Much more.  To be great, they need a vertical threat to take advantage of the matchups afforded by Green on the opposite side. 

It isn't just a deep shot when I say "vertical threat".  If you can imagine 3rd and 6:  Green is with press coverage and a safety over top.  Eifert also draws double coverage.  Said vertical threat has a DB on him and is afraid of getting beat deep.  Ross or Davis explodes off the line, as soon as the DB flips his hips, the WR breaks the route and catches an easy first down. 

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-28-2017, 05:10 PM)Au165 Wrote: A little guy who can't use his hands to get off press? I kid, kind of but seriously I think people are enamored with his speed, but the guy runs a pretty limited route tree.

Watch all his tape.  He isn't little...he's just a shade under 6'.  He doesn't double-catch.  He eats up cushion by DBs set WAY off him in a blink.  The guy is an outstanding WR.  I liked him before he broke the 40 record.  He would scare the shit out of opposing defenses.  

They even used him on reverses/rushes, and 4 of 8 runs went over 15 yards.  He also had a KR for a TD in three straight years.  This guy isn't a one-trick pony.  

[Au165]

(03-29-2017, 08:20 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Look at what Atlanta paid Sanu to be there 3rd or 4th option.  The offense needs MUCH more than just AJ and Eifert.  Much more.  To be great, they need a vertical threat to take advantage of the matchups afforded by Green on the opposite side. 

It isn't just a deep shot when I say "vertical threat".  If you can imagine 3rd and 6:  Green is with press coverage and a safety over top.  Eifert also draws double coverage.  Said vertical threat has a DB on him and is afraid of getting beat deep.  Ross or Davis explodes off the line, as soon as the DB flips his hips, the WR breaks the route and catches an easy first down. 

They paid Sanu to be their #2 and that is what he was last year. Teams don't tend to play Green in press man because he is so good at getting off the press it exposes them even in bracket coverage. I get what your envisioning, but it is a very simplified outlook on actual football strategy.

To your other post, he is little (Under 6 foot) and he can't beat press consistently those statements are still true. Teams aren't going to give him cushions to eat up in the NFL until he proves he can beat press man. Most people don't understand, beating press man in the NFL is literally the down fall of all sorts of great college WRS because if you show you can't do it then thats all opposing teams do to you. Speed means nothing if it take you 5+ seconds to get past the five yard contact zone. Early in the season teams were letting Will Fuller get free releases and he was thriving, but late in the year the press man started and he had problems creating separation. People will blame Osweiller, but Fuller was unable to effectively beat press man and get into his route.

Once again, Ross is a good WR and can be good in the NFL. I simply am pointing out that he is not a year 1 super star and if I am taking an offensive weapon that early in the draft he better be. You can scheme guys that struggle to get off press, but it is hard to do in base two wide sets.

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-29-2017, 09:24 AM)Au165 Wrote: They paid Sanu to be their #2 and that is what he was last year. Teams don't tend to play Green in press man because he is so good at getting off the press it exposes them even in bracket coverage. I get what your envisioning, but it is a very simplified outlook on actual football strategy.

To your other post, he is little (Under 6 foot) and he can't beat press consistently those statements are still true. Teams aren't going to give him cushions to eat up in the NFL until he proves he can beat press man. Most people don't understand, beating press man in the NFL is literally the down fall of all sorts of great college WRS because if you show you can't do it then thats all opposing teams do to you. Speed means nothing if it take you 5+ seconds to get past the five yard contact zone. Early in the season teams were letting Will Fuller get free releases and he was thriving, but late in the year the press man started and he had problems creating separation. People will blame Osweiller, but Fuller was unable to effectively beat press man and get into his route.

Once again, Ross is a good WR and can be good in the NFL. I simply am pointing out that he is not a year 1 super star and if I am taking an offensive weapon that early in the draft he better be. You can scheme guys that struggle to get off press, but it is hard to do in base two wide sets.

I think you are way off base on Fuller.  He struggled because he dropped a lot of passes.  He was open, and open deep.  

Ross is taller than Antonio Brown and has longer arms.  If that is little, I will take little.

The steelers play AJ Green a lot in the bracket coverage I described, so I don't get how that is simple.  

[Au165]

(03-29-2017, 04:10 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I think you are way off base on Fuller.  He struggled because he dropped a lot of passes.  He was open, and open deep.  

Ross is taller than Antonio Brown and has longer arms.  If that is little, I will take little.

The steelers play AJ Green a lot in the bracket coverage I described, so I don't get how that is simple.  

Fuller got pressed and got shut down. He only had 5 drops all season so not sure how that is "a lot".

He is taller, but that doesn't mean his game is even close to the same so not sure why it matters. Browns game isn't built on being fast, in fact he ran a 4.47 40. His games is built on route running and improvising with Ben. He is little but he can beat press, doesn't mean all little guys can.

The Steelers don't play AJ Green in bracket coverage. In fact the Steelers don't play nearly any man and that is why they got smoked by the Patriots in the playoffs. They ran a zone defense that had some shading to it, but he was still normally one on one. When Ryan Clark was there he'd peel off a decent amount to try and jump routes.

[NKYRob]

(03-28-2017, 07:11 PM)Shady Wrote: Not that Dave Lapham's word is gospel, but he said he saw us taking a "receiver" at 9 if a DE wasn't there. 

Funny thing is, Lapham has been spot on with how the Bengals have picked in the draft for the last several years.  His words carry more weight in this regard than a lot of the national pundits. 

[Hammerstripes]

(03-29-2017, 05:26 PM)NKYRob Wrote: Funny thing is, Lapham has been spot on with how the Bengals have picked in the draft for the last several years.  His words carry more weight in this regard than a lot of the national pundits. 

That's what makes me think that Ross is going to be a guy they might look at.  IF the top DEs (Garrett, Barnett, Thomas and Allen) are off the board, I could definitely see them going WR or even TE.

Of course, I think all bets are off if Fournette is there.  Marvin loves to run the ball, and Fournette fits the AFC North back profile.

[pulses]

(03-28-2017, 02:00 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I'm not going to lie, I have never been thrilled with the Corey Davis draft pick. What furthers my concern is that we did not get to see him run any drills at the combine and I don't believe he has a pro day. So if he is actually a 4.7 40 player, we have no idea. And then we draft him and he can't get separation in the NFL and we feel like a bunch of idiots...

If the coaches are confident in him such that they'd draft him, then I'm fine with it. But I have been concerned with drafting raw receivers ever since Jerome Simpson played like garbage for most of his career here.

LMAO anybody can see he is NOT a 4.7 40 guy....he's faster than mike williams and we all know what he ran.

[YsCascadia]

I like the back and forth. I wouldn't mind John Ross with our 1st pick.

This year's draft is a bit weird for me. I don't have any 1 position in mind and would be happy to address any of them with the 1st pick.

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-29-2017, 04:18 PM)Au165 Wrote: Fuller got pressed and got shut down. He only had 5 drops all season so not sure how that is "a lot".

He is taller, but that doesn't mean his game is even close to the same so not sure why it matters. Browns game isn't built on being fast, in fact he ran a 4.47 40. His games is built on route running and improvising with Ben. He is little but he can beat press, doesn't mean all little guys can.

The Steelers don't play AJ Green in bracket coverage. In fact the Steelers don't play nearly any man and that is why they got smoked by the Patriots in the playoffs. They ran a zone defense that had some shading to it, but he was still normally one on one. When Ryan Clark was there he'd peel off a decent amount to try and jump routes.

Fuller was targeted 92 times, with 47 receptions.  The fact that he was credited with only five drops all season is hilarious.  I saw him drop five in one game.  He was not at the line of scrimmage when those drops occurred, as your post would have us believe.  He was downfield.  He was not pressed and shut down.

Here is an article about the steelers recent game plan on AJ Green:

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2016/09/18/Bengals-WR-A-J-Green-is-in-the-business-of-torturing-cornerbacks/stories/201609180180

Not covering him one on one at all. 

[Au165]

(03-30-2017, 08:13 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Fuller was targeted 92 times, with 47 receptions.  The fact that he was credited with only five drops all season is hilarious.  I saw him drop five in one game.  He was not at the line of scrimmage when those drops occurred, as your post would have us believe.  He was downfield.  He was not pressed and shut down.

Here is an article about the steelers recent game plan on AJ Green:

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2016/09/18/Bengals-WR-A-J-Green-is-in-the-business-of-torturing-cornerbacks/stories/201609180180

Not covering him one on one at all. 

Being pressed doesn't mean he was at the line when he dropped the ball. I checked multiple services some credited him with 5 some with 6, but not the large amount you'd have people believe. Understand that being pressed doesn't mean you never got off the line, it means that it disrupted your route enough that it essentially took you out of the play because of the timing. There tends to be a misconception that when someone says a guy can't beat press it means they never make it into their route. A qb has a very short time to look through progressions and make decisions, if a guy is held up at the line too long they will move on to the next progression.

Your article says nothing about coverage, so now I am confused what your even getting at. They said they don't have a CB follow him, that doesn't mean anything to the type of coverage they run. In a zone scheme no one really covers anyone "one on one" by design, but you do carry them out of your zone if there is no one else to pick him up. The fact of the matter is the Steelers play man less than almost anyone in the NFL. What may confuse you is that they run a lot of cover 3, so at the back end of the route especially down field the CB in deep third coverage will carry with him, but the center field safety will break as the ball is thrown so it looks like two guys are there but it wasn't a true double coverage.

So taking the long way back around to the original topic having someone really fast opposite AJ doesn't mean that much. Even using the same assumption that he is doubled, you would have one safety to provide support to a LB on Eiffert or on a WR on the other side. As long as the WR on the opposite side is a competent route runner we have a schematic advantage. WR is a non starter for me simply because with AJ Green on one side anyone can be successful on the other side if we can keep Andy upright enough for him to run his route.

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-30-2017, 09:25 AM)Au165 Wrote: Being pressed doesn't mean he was at the line when he dropped the ball. I checked multiple services some credited him with 5 some with 6, but not the large amount you'd have people believe. Understand that being pressed doesn't mean you never got off the line, it means that it disrupted your route enough that it essentially took you out of the play because of the timing. There tends to be a misconception that when someone says a guy can't beat press it means they never make it into their route. A qb has a very short time to look through progressions and make decisions, if a guy is held up at the line too long they will move on to the next progression.

Your article says nothing about coverage, so now I am confused what your even getting at. They said they don't have a CB follow him, that doesn't mean anything to the type of coverage they run. In a zone scheme no one really covers anyone "one on one" by design, but you do carry them out of your zone if there is no one else to pick him up. The fact of the matter is the Steelers play man less than almost anyone in the NFL. What may confuse you is that they run a lot of cover 3, so at the back end of the route especially down field the CB in deep third coverage will carry with him, but the center field safety will break as the ball is thrown so it looks like two guys are there but it wasn't a true double coverage.

So taking the long way back around to the original topic having someone really fast opposite AJ doesn't mean that much. Even using the same assumption that he is doubled, you would have one safety to provide support to a LB on Eiffert or on a WR on the other side. As long as the WR on the opposite side is a competent route runner we have a schematic advantage. WR is a non starter for me simply because with AJ Green on one side anyone can be successful on the other side if we can keep Andy upright enough for him to run his route.

"The Steelers have not tried to have one cornerback follow Green for the past two years, even when Taylor was in his final season" that says something about coverage....


And as far as having someone really fast opposite AJ not meaning much, I completely disagree.  

[Au165]

(03-30-2017, 11:13 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: "The Steelers have not tried to have one cornerback follow Green for the past two years, even when Taylor was in his final season" that says something about coverage....


And as far as having someone really fast opposite AJ not meaning much, I completely disagree.  

You are simply wrong, not sure how else I can state it. If anything not having someone follow him means they are mainly running zone (As I have stated) which almost precludes double coverage, compared to your incorrect claim that they bracket covered him. A guy could follow in zone, but it is less effective.

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-30-2017, 11:35 AM)Au165 Wrote: You are simply wrong, not sure how else I can state it. If anything not having someone follow him means they are mainly running zone (As I have stated) which almost precludes double coverage, compared to your incorrect claim that they bracket covered him. A guy could follow in zone, but it is less effective.

I guess if by wrong you mean different than your opinion, then yes, I would be wrong.  I take that statement to mean they didn't single him up, but used what I described as bracket coverage where the CB is on the line and the safety is over the top.  They did the same thing to Chad.  The part about it being one cornerback was the thought of having their best guy follow him wherever he went, and they gave up on that idea.  

[Au165]

(03-30-2017, 02:03 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I guess if by wrong you mean different than your opinion, then yes, I would be wrong.  I take that statement to mean they didn't single him up, but used what I described as bracket coverage where the CB is on the line and the safety is over the top.  They did the same thing to Chad.  The part about it being one cornerback was the thought of having their best guy follow him wherever he went, and they gave up on that idea.  

You don't understand zone defense concepts, it's not my opinion it is simply how it works. The Steelers run a zone defense most the time, a zone defense requires guys to occupy space not players. In a zone defense most the time there is not a CB on the line and a Safety over top, at least not after the play starts. The only time this really occurs is in a cover 2, but in this case the CB is going to stay on the flat route and release the WR to the safety. Depending on the route combination he may be able to travel with the WR, but that is completely dependent on how the offensive play is structured.

I don't blame you asDefensive schemes aren't nearly as simple as most fans think. This is why I always wonder about people and how they say personnel will fit when they don't quite understand how the scheme actually works. This comes up a lot when they talk about how far guys play off the line on certain down and distance. That is based on coverage not on down and distance, they will cheat a bit sometimes but they have to be in certain locations to perform their responsibility. Qb's read alignment of CBs to help them understand pre play what the coverage then they confirm it by safety movement post snap.

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-30-2017, 03:00 PM)Au165 Wrote: You don't understand zone defense concepts, it's not my opinion it is simply how it works. The Steelers run a zone defense most the time, a zone defense requires guys to occupy space not players. In a zone defense most the time there is not a CB on the line and a Safety over top, at least not after the play starts. The only time this really occurs is in a cover 2, but in this case the CB is going to stay on the flat route and release the WR to the safety. Depending on the route combination he may be able to travel with the WR, but that is completely dependent on how the offensive play is structured.

I don't blame you asDefensive schemes aren't nearly as simple as most fans think.  This is why I always wonder about people and how they say personnel will fit when they don't quite understand how the scheme actually works. This comes up a lot when they talk about how far guys play off the line on certain down and distance. That is based on coverage not on down and distance, they will cheat a bit sometimes but they have to be in certain locations to perform their responsibility. Qb's read alignment of CBs to help them understand pre play what the coverage then they confirm it by safety movement post snap.

Apparently, neither do the steelers:

Read the whole thing:

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/steelers-2016-preview-regular-season-news-updates-roster-depth-chart-salary-cap-tickets-new-england-patriots-how-to-watch/2016/10/23/13362848/steelers-film-room-landry-jones-vs-the-patriots-secondary-a-key-to

[Au165]

(03-30-2017, 03:29 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Apparently, neither do the steelers:

Read the whole thing:

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/steelers-2016-preview-regular-season-news-updates-roster-depth-chart-salary-cap-tickets-new-england-patriots-how-to-watch/2016/10/23/13362848/steelers-film-room-landry-jones-vs-the-patriots-secondary-a-key-to

The patriots run a majority Cover 2 man defense, so what is your point? That is literally comparing apples and oranges. You apparently are not grasping the difference between the cover 2 man defense the patriots run and the cover 2/cover 3 zone defense employed by the Steelers.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-28-2017, 03:18 PM)Au165 Wrote: Boyd can play inside or out, and had as good as a rookie season as almost all the WR's from last years "good" class. Core is definitely an outside the hash marks WR that ahs the ability to stretch the field.

(03-28-2017, 05:01 PM)McC Wrote: If the receiver is John Ross,  I'm down with it.  He gives us something we don't have.  

(03-28-2017, 05:10 PM)Au165 Wrote: A little guy who can't use his hands to get off press? I kid, kind of but seriously I think people are enamored with his speed, but the guy runs a pretty limited route tree.

Au165, funny how you say Boyd can play inside or out with his speed and put down Ross with his speed that is
what you need on the outside. Boyd is not explosive, never has been. John Ross is the most explosive WR ever
to come into the NFL one can argue and he is not little, he is 6'1" last i checked.

(03-28-2017, 05:39 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Except he was one of the best red zone producers in college.  Tough to overlook that.

Very true and he faked the crap out of CB's in college and made many look like fools out there.

Plus he can catch, he is not just speed as Au165 is kind of alluding to here.

[Au165]

(03-30-2017, 05:30 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Au165, funny how you say Boyd can play inside or out with his speed and put down Ross with his speed that is
what you need on the outside. Boyd is not explosive, never has been. John Ross is the most explosive WR ever
to come into the NFL one can argue and he is not little, he is 6'1" last i checked.


Very true and he faked the crap out of CB's in college and made many look like fools out there.

Plus he can catch, he is not just speed as Au165 is kind of alluding to here.

I am not sure where I said Boyd can play inside or out BECAUSE of his speed. Boyd can play inside or out because he can beat press, run a full route tree, run crisp routes and has enough speed to get deep (Boyd ran a faster 40 time than Larry Fitzgerald). Boyd's comparison coming out was Keenan Allen and he didn't show anything last season that says he can't still be on that level.

Ross measured 5'11 at the combine not 6'1.

What has captivated everyone is his speed, he can catch along with a bunch of other WR's but it's his speed that makes everyone so giddy. I am telling you that the guy will need to work on getting off press and people are losing their mind. I am not saying he can't be good, but people act like speed means success when Al Davis proved that was not the case. Go look at the list of the top 10 40 times in combine history.

[Au165]

For everyone who loves John Ross, go put on the Colorado tape and tell me you love the guy you see (not like but top 10 love the guy). Even against an okay defense that doesn't run press man he looked just okay. He had multiple drops and he had to double catch a couple balls.