Holy #$!& We need a RB

[fredtoast]

(04-04-2017, 12:05 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah, Gramps remembers..

In the 8 years that Palmer started at QB for the Bengals there were 362 interceptions returned for tds.

But all of this is ridiculous because the way an int is returned has nothing to do with the QB throwing the pick.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-04-2017, 03:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: In the 8 years that Palmer started at QB for the Bengals there were 362 interceptions returned for tds.

But all of this is ridiculous because the way an int is returned has nothing to do with the QB throwing the pick.

So? How many QB's started in that time?

All i care about is how many pick 6's Carson threw. I bet it was up there with the starters.

What is ridiculous is your selective responses that ignore points.

There are bad interceptions and then there are really bad interceptions that give up points. You know, sideline interceptions where the CB goes the distance untouched...

I know there was a guy named Ed Reed back there in Baltimore but even Dalton has thrown these bad interceptions, like the one to Pitt last year. William Gay i believe was the Corner that returned it untouched for a TD, these are the worst interceptions imagineable.

I would like to know the stats on both Palmer and Dalton and their pick 6 ratio with other starters if you want to keep defending Zamp.

[fredtoast]

(04-06-2017, 01:54 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I would like to know the stats on both Palmer and Dalton and their pick 6 ratio with other starters if you want to keep defending Zamp.

Pick sixes are the silliest way to judge a QB coach.  They are determined by how well the ball is returned, and the QB coach has zero to do with that.  And even the QBs who threw the most pick sixes only had 2 or 3 a year.

"I always judge QB coaches by one or two plays a year where a DB makes a good return on an interception.  Nothing else makes any sense to me.  No need to look at interception percentage, completion percentage, yards, tds, wins, Pro Bowls or anything else.  Just the nunmber of interceptions that were returned for tds.  That is the only way to judge a QB coach."

[fredtoast]

(04-06-2017, 01:54 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I would like to know the stats on both Palmer and Dalton and their pick 6 ratio with other starters if you want to keep defending Zamp.

In the five years that Zampese was Dalton's QB coach the following QBs had as many or more interceptions returned for tds than dalton.

Rivers.........15
Ryan...........11
Stafford.......11
E. Manning..11
Cutler..........10
Brees..........10
Geno Smith...8
Romo...........8
P. Manning...8
Bortles.........8


This is a very common problem artound here.  Bengal fans see a Bengal player mess up and decide that the player and/or coach is terrible.  The problem is that they don't watch every game for every team so they don't see all threse other players on other teams making the same mistakes as much or even more than the Bengals.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(04-04-2017, 03:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: In the 8 years that Palmer started at QB for the Bengals there were 362 interceptions returned for tds.

But all of this is ridiculous because the way an int is returned has nothing to do with the QB throwing the pick.

You and I both know that's not true. Some QBs wait too long to throw balls to routes on the flats or comeback routes. They wait until the receiver is open before throwing it rather than throwing the ball with anticipation. Or they stare down the player before throwing the ball, giving the defender plenty of time or indication to be able to jump the route and take it back to the house easily with no defenders to avoid.

INT 1:




INT 2:





INT 3:





One of those three INTs would have been near impossible to return for a TD. The other two were incredibly easy to return for a TD. QBs have a lot of influence on how their INTs are returned by how and where they throw them.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-07-2017, 09:01 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Pick sixes are the silliest way to judge a QB coach.  They are determined by how well the ball is returned, and the QB coach has zero to do with that.  And even the QBs who threw the most pick sixes only had 2 or 3 a year.

"I always judge QB coaches by one or two plays a year where a DB makes a good return on an interception.  Nothing else makes any sense to me.  No need to look at interception percentage, completion percentage, yards, tds, wins, Pro Bowls or anything else.  Just the nunmber of interceptions that were returned for tds.  That is the only way to judge a QB coach."

No they are not. These are the worst mistakes a QB can make, throwing the ball to a place where it is easy for the
Defender to pick off the ball and take it the distance. Like i said, throwing an interception to a guy like Ed Reed is
different in the middle of the field and he takes it all the way. The guy is a returner at that point that made a great
play.

To act like a coach has nothing to do with his player making a mistake is making excuses for the coach as you do
all the frickin time.

(04-07-2017, 09:17 AM)fredtoast Wrote: In the five years that Zampese was Dalton's QB coach the following QBs had as many or more interceptions returned for tds than dalton.

Rivers.........15
Ryan...........11
Stafford.......11
E. Manning..11
Cutler..........10
Brees..........10
Geno Smith...8
Romo...........8
P. Manning...8
Bortles.........8


This is a very common problem artound here.  Bengal fans see a Bengal player mess up and decide that the player and/or coach is terrible.  The problem is that they don't watch every game for every team so they don't see all threse other players on other teams making the same mistakes as much or even more than the Bengals.

Thanks for this Fred, atleast you brought up some stats that matter.

How many for Palmer in his career?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

Major reps TLL...

[fredtoast]

(04-07-2017, 12:14 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: To act like a coach has nothing to do with his player making a mistake is making excuses for the coach as you do all the frickin time.

Says the guy who claims Zampese had nothing to do with completion percentage, interception percentage, passing tds, passing yards, Pro Bowls, and wins by the Bengal QBs.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-07-2017, 01:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Says the guy who claims Zampese had nothing to do with completion percentage, interception percentage, passing tds, passing yards, Pro Bowls, and wins by the Bengal QBs.

This guy did not say that.

[fredtoast]

(04-07-2017, 09:31 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: QBs have a lot of influence on how their INTs are returned by how and where they throw them.

Not sure exactly what you are trying to say.  I can't believe you would try to claim that ever interception that is returned for a TD is based on how the QB threw the pass.  If you are then that is just silly.  We have all seen the difference in return abilities between different DBs.

So if you are claiming that the QB can have an influence on how SOME interceptions are returned then I am going to have to see a breakdown that tells me how many interception returns against the Bengals were the blame of the QB and how that compares to the rest of the league.

I see how you are trying to make a point, but I just need to see some more info make it valid.

[fredtoast]

(04-07-2017, 01:15 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: This guy did not say that.

Then how can you hate Zampese as a QB coach?

Do you really give more weight to 2 or 3 plays a season than what happens in the other 500+ pass attempts?  Dalton thre 8 pick sixes in five years with Zampese as his QB coach.  That is 1.6 plays per season.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-07-2017, 01:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Then how can you hate Zampese as a QB coach?

Do you really give more weight to 2 or 3 plays a season than what happens in the other 500+ pass attempts?  Dalton thre 8 pick sixes in five years with Zampese as his QB coach.  That is 1.6 plays per season.

Never said i hated the guy either, just said i never really liked him and thought it was a lazy hire when we bumped him up to OC.

That is still 56 points given to the other teams. These are the worst mistakes a QB can make and i am a Dalton supporter now and
i was a Palmer supporter then. I just thought especially Palmer did this way too often and i am still waiting on how many pick sixes
Palmer threw...

Bet it was a lot as you haven't brought Palmer's pick sixes up.

[fredtoast]

(04-07-2017, 02:39 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Never said i hated the guy either, just said i never really liked him and thought it was a lazy hire when we bumped him up to OC.

That is still 56 points given to the other teams. These are the worst mistakes a QB can make and i am a Dalton supporter now and
i was a Palmer supporter then. I just thought especially Palmer did this way too often and i am still waiting on how many pick sixes
Palmer threw...

Bet it was a lot as you haven't brought Palmer's pick sixes up.

Okay, no more cherry picking.

During Zampese's 13 year tenure as bengals QB coach there have been 706 pic six's thrown in the NFL.  That is an average of 1.84 per team per season.  The Bengals have thrown 31 (a lot but not the most in the league).  That is an average of 2.38 per year.  So basically we are talking about a difference of one-half of one td per year between the Bengals and the league average.  One play every two years (1100-1200 pass attempts)

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-07-2017, 07:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Okay, no more cherry picking.

During Zampese's 13 year tenure as bengals QB coach there have been 706 pic six's thrown in the NFL.  That is an average of 1.84 per team per season.  The Bengals have thrown 31 (a lot but not the most in the league).  That is an average of 2.38 per year.  So basically we are talking about a difference of one-half of one td per year between the Bengals and the league average.  One play every two years (1100-1200 pass attempts)

That is what i am talkin about Fred.

Well done and major reps.

This shows that Carson Palmer was indeed Captain Fantastic/Captain pick six as most of us Bengal fans thought and
was the main reason i just didn't like his coach Zampese. His time last year as OC was even worse and must of had
something to say with the O-line that only hurt his Probowl QB that he inherited...

His stretch plays with Jeremy Hill were particularly infuriating. Using Zeitler as a pulling Guard...

[The Caped Crusader]

Terrible. Terrible run game. I definitely think we should blame Dalton for this.

[fredtoast]

(04-07-2017, 11:23 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: This shows that Carson Palmer was indeed Captain Fantastic/Captain pick six as most of us Bengal fans thought and was the main reason i just didn't like his coach Zampese. His time last year as OC was even worse and must of had something to say with the O-line that only hurt his Probowl QB that he inherited...

So there was one minor trait of one QB he worked with and this makes you dislike him as a coach?  A QB who twice finished in the top 5 in yards, tds, and passer rating gets trashed because he threw one extra pick six every 1100 to 1200 pass attempts?

And who did Zampese "inherit" his Pro Bowl QB?  Who developed that 2nd rounder into a Pro Bowl QB?

[SunsetBengal]

(04-07-2017, 02:39 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Never said i hated the guy either, just said i never really liked him and thought it was a lazy hire when we bumped him up to OC.

That is still 56 points given to the other teams. These are the worst mistakes a QB can make and i am a Dalton supporter now and
i was a Palmer supporter then. I just thought especially Palmer did this way too often and i am still waiting on how many pick sixes
Palmer threw...

Bet it was a lot as you haven't brought Palmer's pick sixes up.

Looks like Palmer is 8th on the all time list, with 21 pick 6's.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/5tjpxd/career_qb_picksix_leaderboard/

[Joelist]

I actually rooted for Palmer up until his tantrum. But let's remember that he did have the moniker P6P for a reason - and he got called it by two fanbases (Bengals and Raiders) not just one. As Sunset showed Palmer is 8th all time in pick sixes.

Now to me it was part Palmer (slightly slower release) and part poor play design in that a LOT of the pick sixes were on the same short slant pattern. Note that AZ basically stopped using that particular play with Palmer - which is sensible - you play to what your QB does well.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-08-2017, 09:27 AM)fredtoast Wrote: So there was one minor trait of one QB he worked with and this makes you dislike him as a coach?  A QB who twice finished in the top 5 in yards, tds, and passer rating gets trashed because he threw one extra pick six every 1100 to 1200 pass attempts?

And who did Zampese "inherit" his Pro Bowl QB?  Who developed that 2nd rounder into a Pro Bowl QB?

Just the worst thing your QB can do is all. Palmer was extremely talented, you cannot dismiss this.

Not like the guy had a talentless QB to work with, Palmer also had great weapons at WR for most his time here.

You don't think Jay and Hue had a bit into developing Dalton?

(04-08-2017, 11:21 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Looks like Palmer is 8th on the all time list, with 21 pick 6's.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/5tjpxd/career_qb_picksix_leaderboard/

Thank you Sunset. This is all i was asking for, thought he was up there. :andy:

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-08-2017, 11:40 AM)Joelist Wrote: I actually rooted for Palmer up until his tantrum. But let's remember that he did have the moniker P6P for a reason - and he got called it by two fanbases (Bengals and Raiders) not just one. As Sunset showed Palmer is 8th all time in pick sixes.

Now to me it was part Palmer (slightly slower release) and part poor play design in that a LOT of the pick sixes were on the same short slant pattern. Note that AZ basically stopped using that particular play with Palmer - which is sensible - you play to what your QB does well.

No question Joelist, nice post.