Try to sell me on O.J. Howard.

[09ItsOurTime]

There are few players in the top 15 who I want less than O.J. Howard.

People keep saying we don't need a Safety because we have 2 OK starters, or we dont need a LB because we signed an average starter for 1 year. But O.J. Howard would be the 3rd target AT BEST.

I don't see this Bengals coaching staff ever being able to effectively use 2 top TE's. It just doesn't make sense unless they're preparing for Eifert to leave next year, in which case they should trade him now for a 1st+.

His only redeeming qualities to me are that he is athletic(though it doesn't translate to scores) and he can block(in which case they should be going after o-linemen)

Just look at his stats, over 4 years of playing he has a total of 6 touchdowns. SIX, over 4 years...

[*bengalfan74*]

When Hobspin first mentioned Howard a couple weeks ago I let out big NOOOOOO. But I'm warming up to the idea - A LOT.

Most likely all the top edge rushers are going to be gone by #9. There's not really any O-line worthy of that high a pick. We can afford to wait on WR's, as well as RB's !

Throw in the fact that Eifert can't stay on the field with his injuries and I'm really warming up to the idea. Imagine if Eifert could stay healthy (and our coaching staff can properly run a 2TE set) we could be very dangerous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlYbWrNF-9Q

[Jpoore]

(04-02-2017, 01:30 AM)09ItsOurTime Wrote: There are few players in the top 15 who I want less than O.J. Howard.

People keep saying we don't need a Safety because we have 2 OK starters, or we dont need a LB because we signed an average starter for 1 year. But O.J. Howard would be the 3rd target AT BEST.

I don't see this Bengals coaching staff ever being able to effectively use 2 top TE's. It just doesn't make sense unless they're preparing for Eifert to leave next year, in which case they should trade him now for a 1st+.

His only redeeming qualities to me are that he is athletic(though it doesn't translate to scores) and he can block(in which case they should be going after o-linemen)

Just look at his stats, over 4 years of playing he has a total of 6 touchdowns. SIX, over 4 years...

people say he can block. But i would prefer a jason witten comp type player who can easily take on des with ease in jake butt. There are players who u pick at 9 would be a bigger impact to you team at 9. Hes not worth the number 9. Get butt in 3. Better than howard long term overall. Not to mention were not running 2 te sets with both tes going out for long passes anyways.

[McC]

(04-02-2017, 02:10 AM)Jpoore Wrote: people say he can block. But i would prefer a jason witten comp type player who can easily take on des with ease in jake butt. There are players who u pick at 9 would be a bigger impact to you team at 9. Hes not worth the number 9. Get butt in 3. Better than howard long term overall. Not to mention were not running 2 te sets with both tes going out for long passes anyways.

Butt won't even play this year, will he?  Handle DE's with ease?  How many TE's do that?

Do we want the third or fourth best at a position or the best at another?  To me, that question should at least be considered on draft day.  That and will he make us better and be on the field this year.

[Jpoore]

(04-02-2017, 02:28 AM)McC Wrote: Butt won't even play this year, will he?  Handle DE's with ease?  How many TE's do that?

Do we want the third or fourth best at a position or the best at another?  To me, that question should at least be considered on draft day.  That and will he make us better and be on the field this year.

Exactly. How many tes do that. But he does. At least in college. And the third or 4th? Remember before his injury he was regarded as the best te in football or at the very least he was in that conversation. He was a projected mid to late first rounder. And as far as his injury, he is ahead of schedule and hoping to be avaliable by mid july. It seems as though that is a real possibility.

[Lionel Hutz]

How about Eifert plays 5 games and out other 11 due to injury next year (then signs with Pittsburgh in offseason)? Bengals then left with Kroft and Uzomah. Doesn't matter though cause they'd just let Howard walk in 4 years for a niiiiiiiiiice 5th round comp pick that Hobspin will cream his pants over (the pick, not the resulting player drafted).

[t3r3e3]

(04-02-2017, 02:10 AM)Jpoore Wrote: people say he can block. But i would prefer a jason witten comp type player who can easily take on des with ease in jake butt. There are players who u pick at 9 would be a bigger impact to you team at 9. Hes not worth the number 9. Get butt in 3. Better than howard long term overall. Not to mention were not running 2 te sets with both tes going out for long passes anyways.

Howard and Butt are similar in stature, but that's where the comparison ends.  Butt is glacial compared to Howard, has a ripped up knee, and is nowhere near the talent.  Nor is Butt anywhere near as good as Witten was coming out of UT.  Howard is the best TE prospect to come out in the last 10 years.  Better testing and measurables than Graham and Gronk.  Better blocker too. Howard did everything Bama asked him to do.  

[t3r3e3]

(04-02-2017, 02:58 AM)Jpoore Wrote: Exactly. How many tes do that. But he does. At least in college. And the third or 4th? Remember before his injury he was regarded as the best te in football or at the very least he was in that conversation. He was a projected mid to late first rounder. And as far as his injury, he is ahead of schedule and hoping to be avaliable by mid july. It seems as though that is a real possibility.

Howard, on average, lined up against more NFL talent at DE than Butt did at UM.  And you're exaggerating Butt's blocking prowess a bit.  Is he a good blocker?  Yes.  With ease?  That's a bit much. No matter how you spin it, Howard is a more complete prospect.

[pulses]

(04-02-2017, 06:04 AM)t3r3e3 Wrote: Howard, on average, lined up against more NFL talent at DE than Butt did at UM.  And you're exaggerating Butt's blocking prowess a bit.  Is he a good blocker?  Yes.  With ease?  That's a bit much. No matter how you spin it, Howard is a more complete prospect.

Yeah he tends to make the guys he likes sound better than the others who are usually better players/prospects. Howard's TD numbers were low because he was underutilised at Bama and they run a TON.

[pulses]

(04-02-2017, 05:59 AM)t3r3e3 Wrote: Howard and Butt are similar in stature, but that's where the comparison ends.  Butt is glacial compared to Howard, has a ripped up knee, and is nowhere near the talent.  Nor is Butt anywhere near as good as Witten was coming out of UT.  Howard is the best TE prospect to come out in the last 10 years.  Better testing and measurables than Graham and Gronk.  Better blocker too. Howard did everything Bama asked him to do.  

Howard is the best TE Prospect to come out since Vernon Davis in 06.

[Jpoore]

(04-02-2017, 05:59 AM)t3r3e3 Wrote: Howard and Butt are similar in stature, but that's where the comparison ends.  Butt is glacial compared to Howard, has a ripped up knee, and is nowhere near the talent.  Nor is Butt anywhere near as good as Witten was coming out of UT.  Howard is the best TE prospect to come out in the last 10 years.  Better testing and measurables than Graham and Gronk.  Better blocker too. Howard did everything Bama asked him to do.  

So college stats dont matter at all?? To me they do. And butt is infinitely better blocker than howard. Its not even up for debate. I liken him to witten because he will be a chain mover as well as an excellent pass blocker. He wont be a gronk or reed catch and run 60 yard td. Butt did everything michigian asked him to do, was albe to block bosa 1 on 1, and played well against great defenses. Also an interesting stat for butt. 2015-2016 on post and corner routes: 24 targets, 17 catches, 394 yards, 4 touchdowns and 1 interception; Michigan QBs had a 135.4 QB Rating when targeting Butt on those two routes. This is what i mean. He will move the chains and be an elite te blocker.

(04-02-2017, 06:04 AM)t3r3e3 Wrote: Howard, on average, lined up against more NFL talent at DE than Butt did at UM.  And you're exaggerating Butt's blocking prowess a bit.  Is he a good blocker?  Yes.  With ease?  That's a bit much. No matter how you spin it, Howard is a more complete prospect.

Howard is so inferior to butt its not even funny as far as blocking is concerned. They are 2 completely different prospects. When u are drafting howard, ur drafting the gronk/olsen/reed splash plays for tds. When u draft butt, ur drafting a jason witten. A guy who will get you the 10-12 yard catches but isnt breaking anything huge while being an elite te pass blocker.

[McC]

(04-02-2017, 02:58 AM)Jpoore Wrote: Exactly. How many tes do that. But he does. At least in college. And the third or 4th? Remember before his injury he was regarded as the best te in football or at the very least he was in that conversation. He was a projected mid to late first rounder. And as far as his injury, he is ahead of schedule and hoping to be avaliable by mid july. It seems as though that is a real possibility.

I meant third of fourth best DE, which is what Barnett would be.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-02-2017, 07:43 AM)Jpoore Wrote: So college stats dont matter at all?? To me they do. And butt is infinitely better blocker than howard. Its not even up for debate. I liken him to witten because he will be a chain mover as well as an excellent pass blocker. He wont be a gronk or reed catch and run 60 yard td. Butt did everything michigian asked him to do, was albe to block bosa 1 on 1, and played well against great defenses. Also an interesting stat for butt. 2015-2016 on post and corner routes: 24 targets, 17 catches, 394 yards, 4 touchdowns and 1 interception; Michigan QBs had a 135.4 QB Rating when targeting Butt on those two routes. This is what i mean. He will move the chains and be an elite te blocker.
Howard is so inferior to butt its not even funny as far as blocking is concerned. They are 2 completely different prospects. When u are drafting howard, ur drafting the gronk/olsen/reed splash plays for tds. When u draft butt, ur drafting a jason witten. A guy who will get you the 10-12 yard catches but isnt breaking anything huge while being an elite te pass blocker.

Where are you getting that Butt is an "infinitely better blocker" than Howard? Multiple draft analysts and scouting reports say that he is just a serviceable blocker.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/draft-pff-scouting-report-jake-butt-te-michigan/

PFF Wrote:Improved as a run-blocker in 2016, and he’s certainly a willing blocker, though there’s still a lot of room to improve.
Run-blocking in general is going to be a struggle
Inexperience in pass protection; hasn’t shown strong ability in pass protection when asked to stay in.
Asked to pass block on just 11.6 percent of his passing snaps last season (167th out of 197 draft-eligible tight ends); surrendered eight pressures on 85 pass block attempts over the past two seasons.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/profiles/jake-butt?id=2557859

Lance Zierlein Wrote: Butt must improve greatly as a blocker to reach his potential as a Y tight end

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/2060719/jake-butt

Dane Brugler Wrote:inconsistent anchor in pass protection vs. power...struggles to sustain in space as a blocker and needs to better mirror with his lower body to avoid holding penalties

Meanwhile, the same sources for scouting on OJ Howard...
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/2061190/oj-howard

Dane Brugler Wrote: Howard showed considerable improvement as blocker in 2016, demonstrating greater effort and upper body strength. He possesses the length and strength to lock-out defenders, turning and sealing them to create lanes for teammates.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/profiles/o.j.-howard?id=2557856

Lance Zierlein Wrote: Lands his hands inside the frame as a blocker. Operates with wide base and attempts to snap hips into his block...Needs better hand strength to sustain his blocks.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/draft-pff-scouting-report-o-j-howard-te-alabama/

PFF Wrote:Graded positively as a run-blocker each season since 2014, had highest run-blocking grade among all tight ends in 2016.
Looks to finish blocks, very tough for smaller defenders to shed once engaged. Makes sure play is past him before letting up.
Very effective on frontside of outside zone runs. Quick enough out of the snap to execute reach blocks, works well off combos and is effective moving up into the second level. Earned 11 positive grades this season while blocking on outside zone versus zero negative grades.
Doesn’t just blindly dive on cut blocks. Appears to consciously seek out the defenders legs, will take an extra step on his lunge if need be.
Great downfield lead blocker. Takes good angles, athletic enough to stay in front of the run and bullies smaller defensive backs.
Questionable ability in pass protection. Only allowed one pressure this season, but asked to stay in and block less (15.8 percent in 2016 vs 20.2 in 2015) after surrendering six pressures on just 85 pass-blocking snaps in 2015. Will get overpowered by more explosive NFL edge defenders and may be susceptible to inside moves.
He has the size, speed, hands and feel to be effective in the passing game while doubling as a strong run-blocker if placed in the right scheme.

[09ItsOurTime]

(04-02-2017, 11:12 AM)McC Wrote: I meant third of fourth best DE, which is what Barnett would be.

That's flawed thinking.

Just because Barnett may be the 3rd best DE, doesnt mean he makes less of an impact than the top TE prospect. Barnett would likely be a starting DE, Howard would be the 3rd target at best.

We can take the top kicker in the second round, but we will likely take the 5th best Rb or Edge or something because they will have a larger impact and create more value.

I see Barnett making more of an impact than Howard, and i'm not even a huge Barnett fan.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-02-2017, 01:09 PM)09ItsOurTime Wrote: That's flawed thinking.

Just because Barnett may be the 3rd best DE, doesnt mean he makes less of an impact than the top TE prospect. Barnett would likely be a starting DE, Howard would be the 3rd target at best.

We can take the top kicker in the second round, but we will likely take the 5th best Rb or Edge or something because they will have a larger impact and create more value.

I see Barnett making more of an impact than Howard, and i'm not even a huge Barnett fan.

Here's why I think the "sell" makes sense. He's more athletic than Tyler Eifert, he's a better blocker out of the gate than Eifert was, he would provide insurance if/when Eifert goes down to injury, and provides a backup plan for if Eifert were to leave in FA. Plus, it would allow the Bengals to use two-TE sets, which would make a lot of sense given the likely quick throws Dalton will have to do behind a mediocre-at-best OL.

We heard this past offseason that the Bengals refuse to pay top dollar for OGs even though the NFL is going in that direction. What makes people think the Bengals will pay top dollar for a TE when they've never shown such an investment in that position previously? If anything, people should start considering the possibility of Howard simply to allow the team to stay competitive if Eifert were to go elsewhere in FA next year or the year after if tagged.

[McC]

(04-02-2017, 01:09 PM)09ItsOurTime Wrote: That's flawed thinking.

Just because Barnett may be the 3rd best DE, doesnt mean he makes less of an impact than the top TE prospect. Barnett would likely be a starting DE, Howard would be the 3rd target at best.

We can take the top kicker in the second round, but we will likely take the 5th best Rb or Edge or something because they will have a larger impact and create more value.

I see Barnett making more of an impact than Howard, and i'm not even a huge Barnett fan.

Not even close.   A situational pass rusher with one move is what he'll be.  How will that stack up against NFL LT's?

Howard is a complete TE with the speed of a WR.

[09ItsOurTime]

(04-02-2017, 01:17 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Here's why I think the "sell" makes sense. He's more athletic than Tyler Eifert, he's a better blocker out of the gate than Eifert was, he would provide insurance if/when Eifert goes down to injury, and provides a backup plan for if Eifert were to leave in FA. Plus, it would allow the Bengals to use two-TE sets, which would make a lot of sense given the likely quick throws Dalton will have to do behind a mediocre-at-best OL.

We heard this past offseason that the Bengals refuse to pay top dollar for OGs even though the NFL is going in that direction. What makes people think the Bengals will pay top dollar for a TE when they've never shown such an investment in that position previously? If anything, people should start considering the possibility of Howard simply to allow the team to stay competitive if Eifert were to go elsewhere in FA next year or the year after if tagged.

Hmm, he may be a better blocker, but i'm not down for picking a TE at 9 because he can block. The insurance part is solid if Eifert goes down, but again, picking for insurance at 9 overall? Not for me. This team has never shown it can effectively use a 2 TE set. I especially don't expect Zampese to do that.

You're right the Bengals rarely invest money in TE's, so then WHY IN THE WORLD pick a TE at number 9 overall if they're also going to let him walk in 5 years? Furthermore for a team that doesn't invest in TE's picking 3 in the first round in 7 years!? That would prove the Bengals are incompetent (though I wouldn't put it past them). When you're picking at 9 overall you should be picking a guy who you think can be a franchise player for 10 years, not 5 and dump. 

There is something seriously wrong if a team picks 3 TE's in 7 years in the first, it's such a low position on the totem poll of impact comparatively.

[McC]

(04-02-2017, 01:30 PM)09ItsOurTime Wrote: Hmm, he may be a better blocker, but i'm not down for picking a TE at 9 because he can block. The insurance part is solid if Eifert goes down, but again, picking for insurance at 9 overall? Not for me. This team has never shown it can effectively use a 2 TE set. I especially don't expect Zampese to do that.

You're right the Bengals rarely invest money in TE's, so then WHY IN THE WORLD pick a TE at number 9 overall if they're also going to let him walk in 5 years? Furthermore for a team that doesn't invest in TE's picking 3 in the first round in 7 years!? That would prove the Bengals are incompetent (though I wouldn't put it past them). When you're picking at 9 overall you should be picking a guy who you think can be a franchise player for 10 years, not 5 and dump. 

There is something seriously wrong if a team picks 3 TE's in 7 years in the first, it's such a low position on the totem poll of impact comparatively.

You wouldn't be picking him because he can bock.  That's just a silly thing to say.  You're picking him because he's the total package.  And when Eifert goes down again, which history says he will, then you have an able replacement.  You've seen how much better our offense is with Eifert playing and how it suffers without him.

And it is absolutely not a low impact position.  That's another silly thing to say.

[Okeana]

Howard is probably the highest projected TE in the history of the NFL and many scouts have said he has the highest grade of any TE they have ever scouted. In college he wasn't utilized fully because of the system he played in. That said he didn't pout and played an even more vital role for the team with his excellent blocking. So you won't see any huge stats from him because that wasn't how he was used, but when he was used in both receiving and blocking he was stellar. I cannot state enough just how good his blocking is for a tight end coming out of college its pretty outstanding.

Eifert is someone the team wants to retain, but historically is unreliable because of injuries every year. I think regardless if they extend Eifert or not they want to continue to improve their TE stable and eventually play a lot of two TE sets and convert to a run first team. I think they realize that in order to succeed with Dalton in the post season they need to be able to run the ball much more and get out of this spread system we have been using for him.

While I don't think they will draft OJ Howard I wouldn't be upset if they did because gaining blue chip players is always a positive for the team and he's every bit a top 5 player regardless of how NFL teams feel about drafting TE's in the top 10. Would you give a 9th overall pick for Gronk if you could go back to that draft ? most people would say yes

[09ItsOurTime]

(04-02-2017, 01:28 PM)McC Wrote: Not even close.   A situational pass rusher with one move is what he'll be.  How will that stack up against NFL LT's?

Howard is a complete TE with the speed of a WR.

Howard is not a complete TE by any means. He was an average TE in college. He's terrible in the red zone, he has a whopping 2 touchowns in 4 years in the redzone. 2.

He's hyped up because he did well at the combine.