Is Derek Barnett Really That Good?

[Hammerstripes]

The more I look at this guy, the more I am starting to wonder if he is better than the following guys:

Lawson
Harris
Williams
Willis
McKinley

I've watched the above guys play more than a few times, and it seems that they all have more explosion and just as good of an overall pass rush as Barnett. IS there really that much difference between those guys and Barnett?

[*ochocincos*]

(04-05-2017, 02:47 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: The more I look at this guy, the more I am starting to wonder if he is better than the following guys:

Lawson
Harris
Williams
Willis
McKinley

I've watched the above guys play more than a few times, and it seems that they all have more explosion and just as good of an overall pass rush as Barnett.  IS there really that much difference between those guys and Barnett?

I don't personally thing he's that much better (if at all) than the guys you listed. You should also include Charlton, as he's in that second-tier DE discussion too.
What I will say is this...the Bengals have worked him out privately, so they will have a good idea if he's really worth the #9 overall or if it's better to wait until 41 for a DE.

[Goalpost]

Just gotta trust the Bengals on this one. He doesn't fit their prototype DE. He didn't work out well. But some guys are just better on the field than testing. And maybe he's more of that type. I, myself, am not full go on him.

For the record I'd be happy with the guys you listed as later picks. Maybe less so Williams who could end up as another Randy Gregory

[Au165]

He gets production and it wasn't just against cupcakes it was often times against some of the best teams in the country. If the production wasn't there I'd be worried, but I worry a lot less about the measurables because the on field production tells a better story.

[Hammerstripes]

(04-05-2017, 03:36 PM)Au165 Wrote: He gets production and it wasn't just against cupcakes it was often times against some of the best teams in the country. If the production wasn't there I'd be worried, but I worry a lot less about the measurables because the on field production tells a better story.

True, but these other guys also got production in the SEC:

Harris
Lawson
Williams


I'm not sure why Tim Williams doesn't get more love on this board.  He's the best pass rusher of the group and he's 6'3" and 250.  Pretty much the same size as Barnett and the others.

[Au165]

(04-05-2017, 04:43 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: True, but these other guys also got production in the SEC:

Harris
Lawson
Williams


I'm not sure why Tim Williams doesn't get more love on this board.  He's the best pass rusher of the group and he's 6'3" and 250.  Pretty much the same size as Barnett and the others.

Williams has major red flags, more than what has leaked into the public according to some scouts. I am not a fan of Lawson, I don't think he will be able to turn the corner in pass rush to beat NFL LT's maybe if he was playing LE but we are looking for a RE. Harris is interesting, but I just wonder if he is going to be the odd man out in a loaded draft class because of his perceived issues with run support. I think Harris falls to the 2nd and could be a steal.

[Hammerstripes]

I don't think the Bengals are looking for a true 3 down DE this year. I wouldn't be shocked to see a tweener type edge rusher for the rotation.

[Au165]

(04-05-2017, 04:58 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: I don't think the Bengals are looking for a true 3 down DE this year.  I wouldn't be shocked to see a tweener type edge rusher for the rotation.

Disagree, Johnsons contract ends soon they will want someone who can be their every down DE hence why they worked out Barnett. Now if we pass on DE in the first will we take a guy who may just be a rush specialist now? Probably. I think though you always want the most well rounded player when you have options.

[Hammerstripes]

(04-05-2017, 05:12 PM)Au165 Wrote: Disagree, Johnsons contract ends soon they will want someone who can be their every down DE hence why they worked out Barnett. Now if we pass on DE in the first will we take a guy who may just be a rush specialist now? Probably. I think though you always want the most well rounded player when you have options.

Barnett isn't the "mold" that the Bengals are used to.

The guy that will be MJ's replacement would be Hardison.  I don't think Barnett would hold up very well at all in the NFL vs. the bigger tackles in the run game.  He may be 260, but he looks like he'd be about 245-250 if he was in better shape.

[Au165]

(04-05-2017, 05:22 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Barnett isn't the "mold" that the Bengals are used to.

The guy that will be MJ's replacement would be Hardison.  I don't think Barnett would hold up very well at all in the NFL vs. the bigger tackles in the run game.  He may be 260, but he looks like he'd be about 245-250 if he was in better shape.

Guenther said earlier this year they don't care about a mold, if they can play football they want them. They aren't using one of their private workouts on the guy if they aren't at least considering him.

Found the quote:

“If that (guy) is 5-11 and he can get there, I don’t care,” Guenther said. “For our defense to play every down, head up on the tight end, the outside part of the tackle, you have to hold up on the run. If you can hold up, there are guys in the league playing at 255, 260. Plenty of guys.

“You’re just looking for guys that have the traits you’re looking for,” Guenther said. “You’re looking for guys with a long reach, but they also have to have the quickness and burst, too. Not many 6-5, 6-6 defensive ends that can play at a high level. They wouldn’t get to us at nine.”

But Guenther says there are guys built with all kinds of bodies that can play at nine.

[lostpoet2]

The coaches should take Ogbuehi with them when working out defensive ends. If the prospect can beat Ced, then he is possibly an NFL player.

[Hammerstripes]

(04-05-2017, 05:29 PM)Au165 Wrote: Guenther said earlier this year they don't care about a mold, if they can play football they want them. They aren't using one of their private workouts on the guy if they aren't at least considering him.

Correct, but he said that he didn't care what size, shape etc as long as they could rush the passer.  That doesn't mean that they are looking for the base 4-3 end, just a pass rusher.

If Barnett is going to start at 260, he's going to have some problems vs.  the run.  He doesn't look like the kind of guy that can carry more weight, if anything he looks like he could shed about 10 pounds.

[*bfine32*]

(04-05-2017, 04:43 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: I'm not sure why Tim Williams doesn't get more love on this board.  He's the best pass rusher of the group and he's 6'3" and 250.  Pretty much the same size as Barnett and the others.

Randy Gregory thinks Williams has too many Red Flags.

As to the OP: I think we're over-thinking it (me included). The dude is a stud on the field.

[Au165]

(04-05-2017, 05:35 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Correct, but he said that he didn't care what size, shape etc as long as they could rush the passer.  That doesn't mean that they are looking for the base 4-3 end, just a pass rusher.

If Barnett is going to start at 260, he's going to have some problems vs.  the run.  He doesn't look like the kind of guy that can carry more weight, if anything he looks like he could shed about 10 pounds.

Rush the passer and hold up in the run. He also pointed out plenty of guys in the league can hold up at 260, literally contradicting what your saying. Barnett held up against the run in the SEC at 260 he will be fine. I trust Guenther especially based on them holding a private workout with Barnett. Robert Quinn of the rams plays at 265 with no issue.

[wolfkaosaun]

He is good. He may not have the same upside as others, but he's been more productive and consistent. Even has a freshman, he started off doing very well. And it's not easy beating Reggie White's sack record.

The thing is, Barnett isn't extremely athletic. He's one of the most natural pass rushers and great with bending and dipping. However, other guys seem bigger or stronger and some have better moves for the inside.

But Barnett excels at beating the edge. Offenses knew it was coming and tackles would go all out to stop it, and he would still win.

[Hammerstripes]

(04-05-2017, 05:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Randy Gregory thinks Williams has too many Red Flags.

As to the OP: I think we're over-thinking it (me included). The dude is a stud on the field.

Theres a long line of guys that have been studs in college but didn't have the explosion to play DE at a high level in the NFL. I wonder if Barnett is one of them.  College production is one thing, NFL production is another.  I just really wonder if he's going to be the impact, Pro-Bowl DE that you should get when you draft in the top 10.

[Whatever]

(04-05-2017, 05:29 PM)Au165 Wrote: Guenther said earlier this year they don't care about a mold, if they can play football they want them. They aren't using one of their private workouts on the guy if they aren't at least considering him.

Found the quote:

“If that (guy) is 5-11 and he can get there, I don’t care,” Guenther said.  “For our defense to play every down, head up on the tight end, the outside part of the tackle, you have to hold up on the run. If you can hold up, there are guys in the league playing at 255, 260. Plenty of guys.

“You’re just looking for guys that have the traits you’re looking for,” Guenther said. “You’re looking for guys with a long reach, but they also have to have the quickness and burst, too. Not many 6-5, 6-6 defensive ends that can play at a high level. They wouldn’t get to us at nine.”

But Guenther says there are guys built with all kinds of bodies that can play at nine.

That can very easily be a smokescreen to keep them from getting jumped, however.

[Passepartout]

Yeah as he is a UT Volunteer guy. And wished he stayed another year to build experience.

[Hammerstripes]

I think after Garrett, this is a class filled with a bunch of similar players. It's way too deep to spend a top 10 pick on a guy like Barnett when you could get a similar guy at #41

[Jpoore]

No. He's not.