Jonathan Allen?

[sonofstat]

Every year there seems to be a highly rated prospect who despite nothing wrong seems to drop a bit as other prospects get 'hot' and rise up the board.

Wondering this year if Jonathan Allen slides and would he be someone we look at if he's available at #9???

At the start of the mock draft cycle he was consistently in the top 5 , even top 3 projection (think i even saw a #2 to the 49'ers on some nfl.com mocks) . Mayock has consistently had him at #1 in his DL rankings.

I've seen barely any chat about him and wondered if he was now in play and what people thought of him (could he slide out ot DE??)

[Jpoore]

Bc of the shoulder issues. I dont want him.

[sonofstat]

(04-07-2017, 05:31 AM)Jpoore Wrote: Bc of the shoulder issues. I dont want him.

Ah, did not know that.  Sounds similar to Myles Jack last year.  Clearly a highly rated prospect but there is fear of the unknown i guess.  

I read one report saying if its going to have an impact its post football/15 years down the line....if that as the case and he lives up to his billing he could be a great value pick for someone.

[Jpoore]

(04-07-2017, 06:13 AM)sonofstat Wrote: Ah, did not know that.  Sounds similar to Myles Jack last year.  Clearly a highly rated prospect but there is fear of the unknown i guess.  

I read one report saying if its going to have an impact its post football/15 years down the line....if that as the case and he lives up to his billing he could be a great value pick for someone.

He has arthritis in both shoulders apparently severe. Its all about what his pain threshold is. If he can play through it good. But if it starts to take a toll, especially when ur not blowing teams out every game in the nfl like they were in college and a longer season etc, its a problem. Dont know i want to risk that on a top 10 pick.

[Au165]

People are over blowing the should issues. I was reading something yesterday that said almost all lineman have it mid career to some degree and just deal with it. If we use the 9th pick on a guy who could be top 2 if not for these reports and get a full contract out of him then we got a steal. Everyone acted like Burfict's knee was done after micro fracture but he has bounced back fine.

We should capitalize on values rather than being scared off. I'll be perfectly honest though, he won't make it to us. The media has over played his fall from grace more than teams have I am guessing.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-07-2017, 07:58 AM)Jpoore Wrote: He has arthritis in both shoulders apparently severe. Its all about what his pain threshold is. If he can play through it good. But if it starts to take a toll, especially when ur not blowing teams out every game in the nfl like they were in college and a longer season etc, its a problem. Dont know i want to risk that on a top 10 pick.

Wrong. It was diagnosed as mild arthritis, not severe. And according to an interview Allen gave at the NFL Combine, his doctors told him he wouldn't be affected for about 15-20 years.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000790164/article/jonathan-allen-unconcerned-about-shoulder-arthritis

Quote:The former Alabama star said Saturday that doctors have told him the condition shouldn't affect him for 15-20 years, according to the doctors he spoke with.

"The shoulder feels good. Every doctor said if there's a problem, it's after football, way after football. I have no concerns with it at all," Allen said at the NFL Scouting Combine. "... They said I have some arthritis in my left shoulder. It's not really a problem now, but it might be a problem 15, 20 years down the road so I'm not worried about that right now. I'm worried about playing good for whichever team I go to."
NFL Media Insider Ian Rapoport reported Thursday that Allen has mild arthritis in both shoulders.

[SunsetBengal]

(04-07-2017, 09:41 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Wrong. It was diagnosed as mild arthritis, not severe. And according to an interview Allen gave at the NFL Combine, his doctors told him he wouldn't be affected for about 15-20 years.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000790164/article/jonathan-allen-unconcerned-about-shoulder-arthritis

If it's something that won't affect him for 15-20 years, why are we hearing about it now?  What I'm saying is that it must have affected him already, or else no one would know about it..

[*psychdoctor*]

If Allen is there at number nine pick I think the Bengals to take the risk. The player will have good days and bad days but even on his bad days he's better than what the Bengals have now on the right side. On his good days he can be a dominant player at right defensive end.

[Au165]

(04-07-2017, 09:59 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: If it's something that won't affect him for 15-20 years, why are we hearing about it now?  What I'm saying is that it must have affected him already, or else no one would know about it..

Because you can see it on the MRI's they did on him at the combine. He may have not even known it was there until after the MRIs. The most likely reason why "we" know about it, someone wants him to drop so has leaked the information. That is what happens this time of the year, it literally happens every year.

[*psychdoctor*]

(04-07-2017, 09:59 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: If it's something that won't affect him for 15-20 years, why are we hearing about it now?  What I'm saying is that it must have affected him already, or else no one would know about it..

If it is a known medical condition they have to declare it and they're trying to get ahead of the issue so that it doesn't hurt his draft status as much.

[SunsetBengal]

(04-07-2017, 10:02 AM)Au165 Wrote: Because you can see it on the MRI's they did on him at the combine. He may have not even known it was there until after the MRIs. The most likely reason why "we" know about it, someone wants him to drop so has leaked the information. That is what happens this time of the year, it literally happens every year.

We were reading about shoulder issues with Allen way before the combine.  I'm saying that whatever is going on in his shoulder is obviously hampering him, and to simply dismiss it as harmless "mild arthritis" is just plain foolhardy.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-07-2017, 09:59 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: If it's something that won't affect him for 15-20 years, why are we hearing about it now?  What I'm saying is that it must have affected him already, or else no one would know about it..

Because he had surgery on his shoulders due to labral tears and that had to be medically checked, and during that medical exam, it was discovered Allen also had mild arthritis. But just because it was flagged doesn't mean it would be guaranteed to affect the individual early on.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000788884/article/alabamas-jonathan-allen-out-to-prove-shoulders-not-a-hindrance

Alabama team doctor Lyle Cain Wrote:"But he's played without any problems," Cain explained. "This is something that a lot of offensive linemen and defensive linemen have, things guys play with their whole careers. It's just a little earlier for him because he got hurt in college."

If a team is very wary of the medicals, it makes sense to skip on Allen. But if what Allen's doctors say is true, there should be little to no worry and the team that takes him could get a steal.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-07-2017, 10:08 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: We were reading about shoulder issues with Allen way before the combine.  I'm saying that whatever is going on in his shoulder is obviously hampering him, and to simply dismiss it as harmless "mild arthritis" is just plain foolhardy.

There's misconception. It wasn't just arthritis. He had labral tears that required surgery. Upon the medical exams after that surgery, it was discovered Allen had mild arthritis.
But the surgeries to repair the tears were done over two years ago for one and a year ago for the other, and he had very good 2015 and 2016 seasons.

Ultimately, Allen is in the same boat as Fournette and John Ross. Both have some (potential) red flags in terms of medicals, but all have proven to produce through any surgeries and injuries.

So if you're worried about shoulder issues for Jonathan Allen, skip him. But for the team willing to take a chance and it does prove that he isn't hindered by it, the team(s) that passed will likely regret it.

[Au165]

(04-07-2017, 10:08 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: We were reading about shoulder issues with Allen way before the combine.  I'm saying that whatever is going on in his shoulder is obviously hampering him, and to simply dismiss it as harmless "mild arthritis" is just plain foolhardy.

Can you link me to a report before March 2nd about arthritis in both shoulders?

[Big Boss]

Does he fit our scheme?

[Luvnit2]

(04-07-2017, 05:12 AM)sonofstat Wrote: Every year there seems to be a highly rated prospect who despite nothing wrong seems to drop a bit as other prospects get 'hot' and rise up the board.

Wondering this year if Jonathan Allen slides and would he be someone we look at if he's available at #9???  

At the start of the mock draft cycle he was consistently in the top 5 , even top 3 projection (think i even saw a #2 to the 49'ers on some nfl.com mocks) . Mayock has consistently had him at #1 in his DL rankings.

I've seen barely any chat about him and wondered if he was now in play and what people thought of him (could he slide out ot DE??)

Love for him to slide to us at 9. If so, he is no brainer as the long term medical issues won't come into play for 10 years

[Au165]

(04-07-2017, 10:34 AM)Big Boss Wrote: Does he fit our scheme?

He can play 3 technique, which is what Geno plays, but can line up at DE. My guess is year one he'd be in on pass rushing downs at DT next to Geno and maybe some play as a DE in base formations.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-07-2017, 11:11 AM)Au165 Wrote: He can play 3 technique, which is what Geno plays, but can line up at DE. My guess is year one he'd be in on pass rushing downs at DT next to Geno and maybe some play as a DE in base formations.

He's currently a bit too big for his height (6'3", 286 lbs) if he's going to be a 4-3 DE, even as a base DE.

The DEs for the Bengals that are 280+ lbs are all 6'5"+, so they have more length than Allen. Wallace Gilberry is about the same height as Allen and Thomas, but Gilberry is 270 lbs. Solomon Thomas (who I have 2nd on big board behind Garrett) is near ideal measurements and athleticism for a 4-3 base DE that swings inside, as he's 6'3", 273 lbs.

This is further reflected in Allen's athleticism and strength, as he's shown worse compared to Thomas.

Allen:
5.00 40, 21 reps bench, 30.0" vert, 108.0" broad, 7.49 3-cone, 4.50 SS

Thomas:
4.69 40, 30 reps bench, 35.0" vert, 126" broad, 6.95 3-cone, 4.28 SS

I would hope that if Allen could shed about 10-15 lbs, he could be much quicker and get closer to Thomas's measurables.

[Au165]

(04-07-2017, 12:27 PM)ochocincos Wrote: He's currently a bit too big for his height (6'3", 286 lbs) if he's going to be a 4-3 DE, even as a base DE.

The DEs for the Bengals that are 280+ lbs are all 6'5"+, so they have more length than Allen. Wallace Gilberry is about the same height as Allen and Thomas, but Gilberry is 270 lbs. Solomon Thomas (who I have 2nd on big board behind Garrett) is near ideal measurements and athleticism for a 4-3 base DE that swings inside, as he's 6'3", 273 lbs.

This is further reflected in Allen's athleticism and strength, as he's shown worse compared to Thomas.

Allen:
5.00 40, 21 reps bench, 30.0" vert, 108.0" broad, 7.49 3-cone, 4.50 SS

Thomas:
4.69 40, 30 reps bench, 35.0" vert, 126" broad, 6.95 3-cone, 4.28 SS

I would hope that if Allen could shed about 10-15 lbs, he could be much quicker and get closer to Thomas's measurables.

Not worried about the size compared to what we normally do, based on Guenthers recent comments we are just looking for players not the specific measurable at this point. Allen has better production than Thomas against better teams, I['ll take the tape over the measurable. This isn't saying Thomas is bad, but he has gotten a lot of hype late but I am not sure it is all warranted so I have cooled on him a bit. Allen will be able to rush from inside, or out, with success at the next level. Is 275 a better size? Maybe, but he can be successful as stated.

Edit:

Allen has a good comp in Michael Bennett.

Height 6'4 Weight 274

5.13 SEC 40
24 REPS bench
31.0 INCH vert
110.0 INCH broad

Bennett a little taller and a little lighter, but it's not crazy to think we could take a little weight off Allen.

[Au165]

By the way just saw this

NFL teams hoping that former University of Alabama defensive lineman Jonathan Allen might drop in the upcoming draft due to shoulder concerns shouldn’t hold their breath. At least that’s the way ESPN analyst Mel Kiper Jr. sees things playing out.

“I haven’t heard anybody who says they’d take him off their list,” Kiper said Wednesday afternoon. “It’s not going to hurt him.