(04-12-2017, 04:26 PM)Wyche Wrote: So, what's your take on the first half? Something changed, and from what I watched, Phillips changed up the coverage. Am I wrong? I know AJ can play in this league, but something caused him and the passing game to be a non factor in the second
Since I saw MCCarron play other teams that also use zone coverage I am guessing that the problems in the second half of the Denver were not as simple as "zone defense". If playing "zone defense" was all it took to make the '15 Broncos defense elite then every one of us cound be NFL defensive coordinators.
(04-12-2017, 04:49 PM)BigSeph Wrote: Second half AJM was 9-17 with 2 sacks, but multiple possessions where the Bengals didn't even attempt a pass. Broncos switched to zone, but McCarron drove the team down the field with 4 minutes to go to tie the game back up. Didn't have Eifert to eat up zone underneath, threw a lot of passes to Kroft and Hill and some incomplete deep shots. Did have a nice completion to Sanu for 20 yards vs cover 3 on a 3rd and 16.
Defense gave up 390 yards in that game, most of them in the 2nd half. Offense not possessing the ball contributed to the defense wearing down, but it's not like the Bengals didn't try to run the ball and chew up clock.
Bengals averaged 3.3 yards per carry, Broncos averaged 5.4. Brock Osweiler passed for 299 yards against the super-awesome Bengals defense.
AJM was obviously confused by Wade Phillips switching to zone blitz and zone defenses in the second half, but the Broncos played man almost the entire year and AJM forced them to stop doing what made them the best defense in the NFL. Hats off to a HOF defensive coordinator, he adjusted, AJM looked rattled in the second half.
And then AJM choked in overtime.
What's your take on Andy Dalton's playoff and primetime TV performances in his career? Has he ever had an 87.8 rating in those moments?
This was my take as well. McCarron is without a doubt the best backup in the league, and would...at the very least... make a serviceable starter IMO.
As for Dalton, his primetime performances have not been too bad lately, he seems to have progressed rather nicely as of late. Yes, he has had quite a few games since his early years in Primetime games above 87.8. The playoffs have been his achilles heel, for sure. That said, it was AJ's too.....and Carson Palmer's, and Jon Kitna's. In fact, it's been every "QB's Achilles Heel" since Marv got here.....defense, RBs, you name it. Everyone has struggled against playoff caliber opponents for 15 years.
(04-12-2017, 04:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Since I saw MCCarron play other teams that also use zone coverage I am guessing that the problems in the second half of the Denver were not as simple as "zone defense". If playing "zone defense" was all it took to make the '15 Broncos defense elite then every one of us cound be NFL defensive coordinators.
Ah yes....the good ol oversimplification and words in the mouth trick, and don't forget the twists and turns to dodge the question at hand.....of course, two of those zone defenses were a part of a couple of the worst teams in the league....but nevermind that, right? Baltimore d was 24th, 9ers were 18th, but their offense was 32nd....and that d was 29th in yards allowed. What defense did Pitt run?
FWIW, I don't recall saying that he couldn't read a zone defense.....I just said it was a struggling point for him, and that he was a bit slower reading it than most starters. That may, or may not improve with more time behind center. Carry on with your crusade though....
(04-12-2017, 03:00 PM)BigSeph Wrote: 1. Likewise when ignorant posters claim he has a terrible arm, can't beat zone defense, got sacked too much, has no pocket presence, etc I point out Brady's rate stats vs McCarron's rate stats in their first NFL season of playing time and shut those absurd criticisms down.
2. Players can improve, and it often takes first team reps and game experience.
3. I'm not putting a cap on McCarron because I'm in love with Andy Dalton. Both QBs are at least average NFL QBs as-is right now, AJM has the potential to improve and become what Andy is - an above average NFL QB. And maybe more.
With less choking in big moments.
1. Look, if you can't even admit the dude has a weak arm, it exposes how biased you are...whether you realize it or not. I know what I've seen (struggles against zone, lack of pocket awareness etc), and unlike the guy who literally posts in Mac-related threads exclusively, I don't have any bias for or against the guy. The people in charge of this organization would never replace Andy Dalton barring a career ending injury or Palmer situation. Anyone with a shred of common sense knows this. So I have no fear that Mac would take Dalton's job even if he truly were capable...which he's clearly not.
No hate for McCarron or love for Dalton influences my take. If you had a Cody Core avatar and constantly sang his praises while claiming he were a "star in the making", I'd shoot that down too.
2. Yeah. I already said that.
3. Yeah I put a "cap" on McCarron just like I've put a cap on Dan LeFevour/Jordan Palmer, and any late round WR that's been drafted over the last 10 years. People have a tendency to hype the ever loving crap out of our backups.
_____________________
If you think McCarron has no major flaws, then why was he drafted late in round 5? Why is he still a Bengal?
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
(04-13-2017, 10:19 AM)Wyche Wrote: This was my take as well. McCarron is without a doubt the best backup in the league, and would...at the very least... make a serviceable starter IMO.
As for Dalton, his primetime performances have not been too bad lately, he seems to have progressed rather nicely as of late. Yes, he has had quite a few games since his early years in Primetime games above 87.8. The playoffs have been his achilles heel, for sure. That said, it was AJ's too.....and Carson Palmer's, and Jon Kitna's. In fact, it's been every "QB's Achilles Heel" since Marv got here.....defense, RBs, you name it. Everyone has struggled against playoff caliber opponents for 15 years.
I counted 2 in his career. Dolphins 2016 and Cardinals 2015.
(04-13-2017, 01:09 PM)BenZoo2 Wrote: I'm trying to decide if your an unabashed aj lover, or Andy hater
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Zac Taylor 2019-2020: 6 total wins
Zac Taylor 2021-2022: Double-digit wins each season, plus 5 postseason wins
Zac Taylor 2023: 9 wins despite losing Burrow half the season
Zac Taylor 2024: Started 1-4. If he can turn this into a playoff appearance, it will be impressive.
(04-13-2017, 11:36 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. Look, if you can't even admit the dude has a weak arm, it exposes how biased you are...whether you realize it or not. I know what I've seen (struggles against zone, lack of pocket awareness etc), and unlike the guy who literally posts in Mac-related threads exclusively, I don't have any bias for or against the guy. The people in charge of this organization would never replace Andy Dalton barring a career ending injury or Palmer situation. Anyone with a shred of common sense knows this. So I have no fear that Mac would take Dalton's job even if he truly were capable...which he's clearly not.
No hate for McCarron or love for Dalton influences my take. If you had a Cody Core avatar and constantly sang his praises while claiming he were a "star in the making", I'd shoot that down too.
2. Yeah. I already said that.
3. Yeah I put a "cap" on McCarron just like I've put a cap on Dan LeFevour/Jordan Palmer, and any late round WR that's been drafted over the last 10 years. People have a tendency to hype the ever loving crap out of our backups.
_____________________
If you think McCarron has no major flaws, then why was he drafted late in round 5? Why is he still a Bengal?
1. The "weak arm" argument was due to his performance at the combine when he still had a hurt shoulder.
2. One would have said Aaron Rodgers would have taken Favre's job his first couple years if he "truly were capable." Or Steve Young would have taken Montana's. You get the point.
3. Put a cap on Tom Brady, Tony Romo, Kurt Warner, you'd make a great NFL GM if you only relied on true studs like Akili Smith, Andre Ware, Tim Couch and Ryan Leaf.
4. McCarron has one major flaw - lack of NFL experience. That's where Andy has the edge on AJM. Arm strength is a non-issue, he had a 53mph throw at the combine with a bum shoulder, Dak Prescott had a 54mph throw. Garoppalo had a 55mph throw. Nobody's constantly bagging on their arm strength. AJM's been working with Tom House who has improved the velocity of Tom Brady, Drew Brees, and Andy Dalton. If you don't want to sound like you're completely ignorant, then stop making ignorant comments about his arm strength.
(04-13-2017, 01:09 PM)BenZoo2 Wrote: I'm trying to decide if your an unabashed aj lover, or Andy hater
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I've said many times that Andy Dalton is a top-tier QB in the NFL and AJM does not deserve to start over him.
I point out Dalton's flaws when I see a bunch of guys having an AJM-bashing party, and attempt to address their bizarre criticisms of AJM (like "can't read zone" or "has a weak arm" or "lost the game vs Steelers").
True. But I think the bengals have made it clear Andy is their guy. And if aj is all that and a bag of chips then we should be adding usable pieces to the roster while we can.
(04-13-2017, 01:26 PM)BigSeph Wrote: Out of what, 17 primetime/playoff games?
So 5 times out of 17, Andy Dalton did better than AJM did vs the #1 defense of the eventual SB champions at Denver in his second start ever?
5 is a lot better than 2 though.
Well, one of those was against that same tough Denver D....and one on the road against eventual Super Bowl Champs New England
Seriously man, I'm not bashing the kid.....nor propping up Dalton....just pointing out how I see it.
That said, what you're not realizing (probably because you weren't around), is that Andy Dalton was criticized FAR more than AJM (and still is by some) ever was, or will be on the old board. So, what you are seeing is a group of guys that stood behind him and told people to calm down....he was young, and a 2nd rounder. He has gone on to become what some of us thought he would...and 2015 even surpassed that for me. So, when people come on here and are perceived to be bashing Andy to prop up AJ, it may get a little testy.
To be fair to both of them, Marvin Lewis sucks. His teams are RARELY prepared for the bright lights, and it shows. For example, the New England game I highlighted.....14 had a very solid game, but AJ Green all of the sudden gets butter fingers and fumbles and drops balls, Sanzenbacher fumbles, seems we turned one over in the kicking game, and the defense was horrid. You see, that's a fifteen year pattern, and there have been several QBs.
(04-13-2017, 12:59 PM)BigSeph Wrote: I counted 2 in his career. Dolphins 2016 and Cardinals 2015.
You can't count.
117.4 @ Pats (stout D)
93.1 vs Broncos (same defense Mac faced)
139.8 vs Browns
99.8 @ Cardinals (stout D)
111.8 vs Dolphins (playoff team)
All since 2014. Plus plenty of other games where he was close to 87.8.
(04-13-2017, 01:13 PM)BigSeph Wrote: 1. The "weak arm" argument was due to his performance at the combine when he still had a hurt shoulder.
2. One would have said Aaron Rodgers would have taken Favre's job his first couple years if he "truly were capable." Or Steve Young would have taken Montana's. You get the point.
3. Put a cap on Tom Brady, Tony Romo, Kurt Warner, you'd make a great NFL GM if you only relied on true studs like Akili Smith, Andre Ware, Tim Couch and Ryan Leaf.
4. McCarron has one major flaw - lack of NFL experience. That's where Andy has the edge on AJM. Arm strength is a non-issue, he had a 53mph throw at the combine with a bum shoulder, Dak Prescott had a 54mph throw. Garoppalo had a 55mph throw. Nobody's constantly bagging on their arm strength. AJM's been working with Tom House who has improved the velocity of Tom Brady, Drew Brees, and Andy Dalton. If you don't want to sound like you're completely ignorant, then stop making ignorant comments about his arm strength.
1. That throw was lofted 40 yards and proves nothing about his arm. Just ask the best deep thrower in team history:
Quote:"[The deep ball] doesn’t have to do with arm strength," Blake said. "It has to do with trajectory, because the deep ball is not a hard throw. It’s a finesse throw."
When Mac can flick a 50 yard rope like this - on the run, wake me up:
Notice the difference in trajectory.
2. Ugh. McCarron is not Steve Young or Aaron Rodgers. Just stop. Both of those guys were regarded as exceptional QBs waiting in the wings. McCarron isn't held in the same regard by anyone but you.
3. Ah...Brady, Romo and Warner. You realize that there's been literally hundreds of QBs drafted late (or undrafted), and beyond those 3 examples, there's pretty much no late round/undrafted QBs that amounted to anything. Finding a franchise QB or even a good starter that late is around the same odds as getting struck by lightning. That's why those guys are all great stories.
4. McCarron has no major flaws. Got it.
(04-13-2017, 01:42 PM)Wyche Wrote: Well, one of those was against that same tough Denver D....and one on the road against eventual Super Bowl Champs New England
Seriously man, I'm not bashing the kid.....nor propping up Dalton....just pointing out how I see it.
That said, what you're not realizing (probably because you weren't around), is that Andy Dalton was criticized FAR more than AJM (and still is by some) ever was, or will be on the old board. So, what you are seeing is a group of guys that stood behind him and told people to calm down....he was young, and a 2nd rounder. He has gone on to become what some of us thought he would...and 2015 even surpassed that for me. So, when people come on here and are perceived to be bashing Andy to prop up AJ, it may get a little testy.
To be fair to both of them, Marvin Lewis sucks. His teams are RARELY prepared for the bright lights, and it shows. For example, the New England game I highlighted.....14 had a very solid game, but AJ Green all of the sudden gets butter fingers and fumbles and drops balls, Sanzenbacher fumbles, seems we turned one over in the kicking game, and the defense was horrid. You see, that's a fifteen year pattern, and there have been several QBs.
Well said, Wyche. I remember people calling for LeFevour to start year 1 over Dalton. Or when people were calling for Jason Campbell to start. We're going into year 7, with Dalton setting multiple franchise records and we're still having stupid debates about whether or not some 5th round backup that looked okay for a couple games is better than our franchise QB.
People should understand the playoff/prime-time struggles by now. As you can see from my sig, Dalton has been better in prime-time lately, but this has been a hot topic with the Bengals since long before Dalton was around. Palmer struggled in prime-time here (passer rating in mid-70's), and 4 different QB's have been under center for a playoff game, with none posting a rating better than 68.3. Hint: 68.3 is still very bad. Dalton posted a near identical 67.4 against the Chargers and was roasted.
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
(04-12-2017, 03:04 PM)BigSeph Wrote: How did Andy do last year when the O-line's play fell off?
There's not a QB in the NFL that is going to put up amazing stats when he has < 2 seconds to throw. You can't even see if a safety's going to bite on an underneath route or stay deep on a post route.
Of course I'm an AJM homer, that's why the irrational criticisms from so many "fans" of this team bother me. None of it makes any sense, and none of it is rooted in reality.
It's just Andy homerism disguised as AJM-bashing.
Andy played very well considering the terrible O-line play last year.
Much better than AJM would considering he holds onto the ball too damn long.
When AJM did start in 2015 he was sacked much more than Andy per game cause he held onto the ball so much longer.
That was with a much better O-line than we had last year.
When Mac can flick a 50 yard rope like this - on the run, wake me up:
Notice the difference in trajectory.
2. Ugh. McCarron is not Steve Young or Aaron Rodgers. Just stop. Both of those guys were regarded as exceptional QBs waiting in the wings. McCarron isn't held in the same regard by anyone but you.
3. Ah...Brady, Romo and Warner. You realize that there's been literally hundreds of QBs drafted late (or undrafted), and beyond those 3 examples, there's pretty much no late round/undrafted QBs that amounted to anything. Finding a franchise QB or even a good starter that late is around the same odds as getting struck by lightning. That's why those guys are all great stories.
4. McCarron has no major flaws. Got it.
1. Why would I ask Jeff Blake what he thinks about AJM's arm strength? What would his subjective opinion matter?
Maybe AJM could make throws that get you hot and bothered if he actually played in NFL games.
2. AJM is held in high regard by me, Nick Saban, Bill Polian, Bucky Brooks and many others. We all agree he should be a starter somewhere right now, and would be successful. You're throwing your hat in with Todd McShay who calls him a "third tier" QB with inadequate arm strength. Meanwhile McShay was really high on JaMarcus Russell, Brian Brohm, Blaine Gabbert, and other million dollar arms with ten cent heads.
3. Dak Prescott was drafted last year at the end of the 4th round. Kirk Cousins was drafted in the 4th round. You keep trying to make general statements yet it's easy to refute them from recent data. Jeff Garcia (undrafted), Russell Wilson (3rd round), Mark Brunell (5th round), the list goes on. It's also just as likely that a 1st round QB is a bust as it is that they end up a 5+ year starter in the league. So let's not pretend like being a 1st round QB is what makes you good, and not getting picked in the 1st and succeeding anyway makes you lucky or some one of a kind story.
Can we be done now? You keep making generalizations and none of them are rooted in reality.
(04-13-2017, 03:52 PM)BigSeph Wrote: It was also AJM's first NFL experience, and his sack rate was almost exactly the same as Tom Brady's in his first year of NFL experience.
Try again.
So? Try what again? Stating the truth? Okay, Dalton has a much faster release than AJM.
Do you actually believe AJM could become a Tom Brady cause of their sack rate?
(04-13-2017, 03:49 PM)BigSeph Wrote: 1. Why would I ask Jeff Blake what he thinks about AJM's arm strength? What would his subjective opinion matter?
Maybe AJM could make throws that get you hot and bothered if he actually played in NFL games.
2. AJM is held in high regard by me, Nick Saban, Bill Polian, Bucky Brooks and many others. We all agree he should be a starter somewhere right now, and would be successful. You're throwing your hat in with Todd McShay who calls him a "third tier" QB with inadequate arm strength. Meanwhile McShay was really high on JaMarcus Russell, Brian Brohm, Blaine Gabbert, and other million dollar arms with ten cent heads.
3. Dak Prescott was drafted last year at the end of the 4th round. Kirk Cousins was drafted in the 4th round. You keep trying to make general statements yet it's easy to refute them from recent data. Jeff Garcia (undrafted), Russell Wilson (3rd round), Mark Brunell (5th round), the list goes on. It's also just as likely that a 1st round QB is a bust as it is that they end up a 5+ year starter in the league. So let's not pretend like being a 1st round QB is what makes you good, and not getting picked in the 1st and succeeding anyway makes you lucky or some one of a kind story.
Can we be done now? You keep making generalizations and none of them are rooted in reality.
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