Players speak for first time on Marvin's contract situation

[grampahol]

Well that wishful thinking about Paul Gunther taking over for Marvin sounds great, but you, me and everyone else in the known universe knows he'll likely be someone else's HC and Marvin will just have to be retained one more season to break in the next DC who will also become someone elses HC in a few years. 
For all intents and purposes the Bengals are the Marvin Lewis school of someone else's head coach.  

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(06-23-2017, 08:56 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: My response to what the players said:  Meh.  Not much here, just typical player speak about team, winning, etc.  They know better than to put their results on their coach.

My response to Marv's current situation:  Prove it.  Marv had to deal with a horrible kicking game a year ago that single-handedly lost two games and lead to another tie.  He has dealt with unfortunate injuries at key positions and inopportune times.  So has every other coach.  Not just the NFL, but virtually every job is "what have you done for me lately"?  He has been given all the tools to go deep in to the playoffs and potentially win it all.  The Bengals didn't have to give him this opportunity.  I was very excited at the proposed "transition plan" to Hue Jackson, who I was 100% behind as our coach of the future.  However, the Browns overwhelmed him and wouldn't let him leave without a contract.  Good for them.  I applaud that dedication.  It screwed the Bengals, and the answer was not to throw it to someone from outside or a guy like Paulie G before he was ready.  

Marv was the option that gave us the best chance to win this year, historical record in the postseason notwithstanding.  

Personally, I love Marv for what he has done for this organization.  I also hate his conservative nature and his inability to manage the clock.  Hurry up looks like a middle school team that has never tried it before.  Drives me nuts.  

In the end, I feel he deserves this last shot at the big one.  Paulie will likely take over next year, regardless of the result.

This is exactly how i feel about the situation, great post man.

Just hoping this team carries Marv to a SB win and he moves on and all is forgotten while Paulie G takes over next year
knowing how to adjust in the game to help the team win when they are up against the wall. This to me is ideal, i doubt
we hire a coach not in house and i bet Guenther's Defense will be pretty damn great this year.

He will be the obvious choice.

[Big Boss]

Knowing our luck, our next head coach will be Paul Alexander or Ken Zampese.

Guenther is the only in-house hire I'd be somewhat comfortable with.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(06-23-2017, 03:50 PM)Big Boss Wrote: Knowing our luck, our next head coach will be Paul Alexander or Ken Zampese.

Guenther is the only in-house hire I'd be somewhat comfortable with.

Don't say shit like that man!!!

[jowczarski]

Thanks so much!
I’ll hit these in a couple groups so it’s not just a huge post:

@Sled21 He's at that point of win one or be gone.. this is a "what have you done for me lately" league....

I honestly have no inclination about his future should they go 6-10. My gut says they’ll move on (but he won’t be “fired” – his contract expired). Then again, they extended him after 2010. If they go 10-6 and lose in the first round…I think he’s back. And that axiom has applied in nearly every other city than Cincinnati

@TheUberHuber firing marvin is going to magically get us a playoff win is absurd

Philadelphia (Andy Reid) and Chicago (Lovie Smith) are really the only “comps” in that they won a bunch (yes, yes, I know the each at least went to Super Bowls) but I think there is a thought that the grass isn’t always greener … it just needs to bloom on your side for once.

@murdock2420 When the stories of how other teams and other coaches handle things start to swirl around, I'm sure Marvin and Mike don't measure up.

I think this was the case for ownership pre-CBA, or pre-salary cap floor and especially pre-Paul Brown Stadium. As for Marvin, I think there is a large respect level for him across the league, to be honest. X’s & O’s … that’s nearly impossible to tell. I think there is something to be said for the fact that the team really took off when the level of assistant coaches went up a notch. I don’t think that’s a knock on Lewis. Assistant coaches are very important – and there’s nothing wrong with a “CEO” mentality. He also should get credit for hiring them. I think there’s something to be said about 0-7 or the “big game” record (however you wish to definite them), however.

And Dungy is a good pull.

@TheUberHuber – health

Honestly – a big deal, IMO. I wasn’t here previous to 2015, but I think it’s pretty clear where this team was lacking in terms of star power / talent when it hit certain postseasons before that – and in ’15, the guy who probably would’ve finished second or third in the MVP voting was out with a cast on his thumb. Literally the entire team was healthy except for literally the ONE person who couldn’t afford to not be.

@masterpanthera_t - considering that this is a MB owned team, it may not be realistic to expect that a transition would be smooth to a new coach, simply because MB is not keen on conceding any ground to the new coach that Marvin had to work hard to earn.

There’s something to be said here. While I think Mike has moved to the side in some areas, Marvin has helped usher that. It’s a very, very unique working environment. A culture shock for nearly any assistant or previous head coach in the league. They may have a list of possible candidates (I think you always have to) but I imagine there would be some tie to Cincinnati.

@BFritz21 - Marvin is an old-school coach in his thinking about the game, which is more of a ground-and-pound and play defense, 

This may be true to an extent, but he did make a wildly out of the box hire with Jay Gruden. And Hue Jackson – while he loves to run the ball – it’s hard to call him traditional. And while the jury is out on Zampese, his whole life has been about throwing it all over the place. At least since 2011, the offense has opened up a bit (at least in terms of style / playbook).

@Dr.Bombay

Thanks for the question. I don’t make a special motion over there, but it’s a valid question. Winston clearly loves it here. Last year, Dansby has nothing but positives to say – I think largely because he played a bunch. I haven’t spoken much to Randy, to be honest, just “business” if you will.

[cincyfan429]

Marvin should get no contract extension. Just based on his playoff record and if you look at all the playoff losses the Bengals were outscored in the second half by like 92 to 24. That's bad coaching bad halftime adjustments. I think he has proven he cant win and they need a change because the window is closing on this team quickly. Its comical hes been there this long with out a single playoff victory.

[jowczarski]

@Murdock2420 - Marvin gets a job helping Duke Tobin.

This is a popular opinion. Marvin does indeed scout players, but that all comes after the season ends and has more to do with the workouts and combine. Scouting talent is a collaborative effort of the entire staff, by position group. I think if “Marvin went upstairs” it wouldn’t be a GM type of role, but more advisory i.e. ceremonial. That’s pure speculation on my part.

@grampahol –
Yeah, there’s nothing there about Pittsburgh at all, and Marvin has had to move Mike along in some ways to keep current with other NFL clubs. Conversely, Mike doesn’t say no – he just needs to see that that way (whatever it may be) can win games and it’s not just something to do “just to do.”

@Pat5775 - One playoff win is not enough to warrant an extension IMO. The team has to play with fire in the postseason and Primetime games this season. They have to show some balls and not wilt under the lights. If they do that, then sure, by all means extend Marv for another year...

Honest question (and some devils advocate): At what point are the players at fault for any of the performance on the field? I understand the complaints about game planning, strategy, etc. – but in the end someone has to make the throw, catch the pass, make the stop when it matters in such “big” games.

@masterpanthera_t; @pat5775 – re: Guenther
I know Guenther aspires to be a head coach, but he has yet to even be interviewed. That doesn’t mean much, but I think other teams want to see his unit put together a dominant performance from week 1-16. You can take bits of pieces of each of the last couple seasons and say “the defense played well/top 10 level” but unlike Jay or Hue’s offenses, his defenses haven’t really popped.

@Bfine32 For a player to even think and/or suggest they cannot win because of the coach is silly and is a dynamic that I have pointed out many times. 

I didn’t expect any player to dip into the past while the present is still at hand. I guess I was thinking we might get a “he deserves to be here” type of thing.

@SHRacerX – ‘transition plan.’
I’m not sure how real that was, to be honest.

[*SHRacerX*]

(06-23-2017, 11:54 AM)sandwedge Wrote: Pretty much my thinking also. I think the job is Guenther's next year, if he wants it. Guenther came out last season with a statement about needing to get younger and faster by playing more of the rookies. Lewis didn't like it, but eventually I think saw that Guenther was right.  I wouldn't be to upset if Guenther was named the HC next season. 

This is an excellent point.  I had forgotten all about that endless thread about how Marv cut Paulie at the knees.  He directly countered what Paulie said in the media, which the majority of folks around here thought was pretty shytty.  

Maybe Katie and Troy paid close attention to that???

They can't let this one get away, a la Hue Jackson.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(06-23-2017, 12:31 PM)grampahol Wrote: Well that wishful thinking about Paul Gunther taking over for Marvin sounds great, but you, me and everyone else in the known universe knows he'll likely be someone else's HC and Marvin will just have to be retained one more season to break in the next DC who will also become someone elses HC in a few years. 
For all intents and purposes the Bengals are the Marvin Lewis school of someone else's head coach.  

But I thought the Bengals were cheap?  Why pay more for a coach?  Marvin is earning much more than I would expect Paulie to get in his first contract?  This is obviously sarcasm, but I think Paulie has seen the likes of Coyle go elsewhere and fail and the likes of Vance Joseph go elsewhere and have mild success.  Hue?  Jury is still out but I sure like what they are doing.  

I think Paulie knows what he has here and wants to stay.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(06-23-2017, 03:50 PM)Big Boss Wrote: Knowing our luck, our next head coach will be Paul Alexander 

Allright, dammit!  You owe me a new keyboard and monitor!  Coffee soaked!!!

[*SHRacerX*]

(06-24-2017, 12:23 AM)jowczarski Wrote: @Sled21 He's at that point of win one or be gone.. this is a "what have you done for me lately" league....

I honestly have no inclination about his future should they go 6-10. My gut says they’ll move on (but he won’t be “fired” – his contract expired). Then again, they extended him after 2010. If they go 10-6 and lose in the first round…I think he’s back. And that axiom has applied in nearly every other city than Cincinnati

I don't know, Jim.  That isn't how it played out for Marty Shottenheimer, Andy Reid, or John Fox.  And I don't think the fans want to see him beyond this year.  Ticket sales are still important to the organization.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(06-24-2017, 12:37 AM)jowczarski Wrote: @SHRacerX – ‘transition plan.’
I’m not sure how real that was, to be honest.

The Bengals were even quoted as saying it was real.  And it only had one more year of Marv.  So, almost like Billings getting injured in preseason, we were stuck with Peko playing a lot more than just in a rotational role.  Peko, like Marv, is a good guy, but I think a lot of us were ready for an upgrade...just like with Marv.  I really, really wanted Hue.  

[Whatever]

(06-24-2017, 09:54 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: The Bengals were even quoted as saying it was real.  And it only had one more year of Marv.  So, almost like Billings getting injured in preseason, we were stuck with Peko playing a lot more than just in a rotational role.  Peko, like Marv, is a good guy, but I think a lot of us were ready for an upgrade...just like with Marv.  I really, really wanted Hue.  

I honestly never really cared for Hue.  I think he proved in Oakland that he doesn't have the best mind for personnel decisions.  I also thought his playcalling got way too cute at times.  It seemed like he was more interested in showcasing his gadget plays so he could look like an offensive genius at times than actually trying to win football games.

[*SHRacerX*]

(06-24-2017, 03:56 PM)Whatever Wrote: I honestly never really cared for Hue.  I think he proved in Oakland that he doesn't have the best mind for personnel decisions.  I also thought his playcalling got way too cute at times.  It seemed like he was more interested in showcasing his gadget plays so he could look like an offensive genius at times than actually trying to win football games.

I couldn't disagree more, but that's fine...right?  I mean, if we all agreed that the Bengals are awesome and the steelers are the devil, it just wouldn't be that much fun around here.  (BANHAMMER)

Seriously, if Carson Palmer didn't sit around and drink beer while playing the role of quitting pouter, that season might have been quite different for the Raiders.  They were playing really good ball before Campbell went down.  If he would have gotten the Palmer that went to the Cards a short while later, they may have been a playoff team.

And one thing I will say for Hue when it comes to the Browns:  his guys play hard.  His team will not be a pushover this year and I give him two to three years before he is primed to be a perennial playoff team. 

[grampahol]

You know..IF the Bengals go on to win the super bowl this year and stomp every opponent into the ground under their cleats all the arguments about Marvin not being up to the job will be mute. The simple fact of the matter is that everyone stinks up until the point that they don't. I have never made the assumption that Marvin is incapable of taking the team all the way.  Its simply not all on any one individual. On every single play of every snap there's always 22 players on the field and any number of coaches and assistant coaches. There are just too many moving parts to a team to blame success or failure on one person. You can use the argument that the buck stops there, but without your best players playing their best it's tough to pin it all on the guy in charge of hiring and firing. There's just so many intangible factors that nobody can reliably predict from day to day and there's also such things as referee biases and league interference and perceived bias towards certain teams and markets. 
In a perfect world none of the alleged biases and cheating would ever take place, but having the suspicious mind that I have I wouldn't be surprised to find out just how much of certain teams success is because there are no laws prohibiting the league from fixing the outcomes of games and championships. 
If you put all of that into the equation, cheating, league bias, market share, MONEY, etc., is it even possible that any coach could make this team win any championship?  These are unanswerable questions because we can't find the answers. 
Ok..I'm rattling on now..    
There is a possibility that Marvin has been playing against a stacked deck the entire time. 

[firstand10]

How long has Marvin been head coach of the Bengals? And with the talent he's had,where is this team at? Win some playoff games and then talk contract extensions! Changing coaches at mid season is not good thing. Unless you are trying to tell the team get your heads outta your @#$$#or someof you will be next!

[Murdock2420]

(06-24-2017, 12:37 AM)jowczarski Wrote: @Murdock2420 - Marvin gets a job helping Duke Tobin.

This is a popular opinion. Marvin does indeed scout players, but that all comes after the season ends and has more to do with the workouts and combine. Scouting talent is a collaborative effort of the entire staff, by position group. I think if “Marvin went upstairs” it wouldn’t be a GM type of role, but more advisory i.e. ceremonial. That’s pure speculation on my part.

That is awesome insight. I was unaware of how it was handled, just have been able to notice a trend in drafting since Marvin took over the reigns of the team. No more Akili Smith type of picks instead the team usually gets praise for finding value in most rounds. 

[grampahol]

Little off topic Jim, but how do you feel about your article basically rebranded by Kyle Phelps on SBnation? Imitation the sincerest form of flattery or just one real lazy dude ripping off your work? 
  https://www.cincyjungle.com/2017/6/24/15861438/bengals-players-marvin-lewis-contract-year

I ran across it a little while ago and thought, 'Hmmm..seems I've read all this somewhere else,  word for word.' I guess if it's ok for a presidential candidate's wife it's ok on the sports pages as well.  Personally I don't particularly have a love affair with plagiarism. 

[HarleyDog]

(06-24-2017, 06:03 PM)grampahol Wrote: On every single play of every snap there's always 22 players on the field and any number of coaches and assistant coaches.

Only in Pittsburgh. The rest of the NFL coaches are required to be off the field during play.

[BURROWorBUST]

(06-23-2017, 11:54 AM)sandwedge Wrote: Pretty much my thinking also. I think the job is Guenther's next year, if he wants it. Guenther came out last season with a statement about needing to get younger and faster by playing more of the rookies. Lewis didn't like it, but eventually I think saw that Guenther was right.  I wouldn't be to upset if Guenther was named the HC next season. 

Although I think we blew it when we let Vance Joseph get away, I Gunther might be a good HC for us. Can't say for sure. We had alot of injuries on the defense last year (Hardison and Billings, just to name two) that forced Peko and MJ into playing far more than they should have.  Dansby was a disappointment (over the hill). We lacked speed in the middle of the field. So we got gashed on the ground and couldn't generate a pass rush to save our lives. We put way too much pressure on our secondary. We knew what we need to do in the draft, and we took care of business. You could even say we got lucky. Who knew that Willis and Lawson would drop as far as they did. Either way, it allowed us to seriously upgrade our WR corps and our situation at RB. Plus, we've got a real competition for a kicker to replace Nuge, but I hope we don't have to attempt as many FGs if our Red Zone offense can pick up.