According to yahoo, Bengals tied with Giants for 18th best QB options in the NFL

[BURROWorBUST]

Maybe they should follow suit with the Washington Post and NYTimes and retract this fake news.

[Shake n Blake]

(06-30-2017, 05:55 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So you have Andy above "separated from":

Marcus Mariota
Carson Palmer
Sam Bradford
Jamis Winston
Dak Prescott

Give him a homer rank of 15th. Why do folks get mad when a site rates him late teens? The dude is a mid-tier QB. Too good to replace, not good enough to carry a team.  Folks that say they want to see more from the young QBs were the same folks that were comparing him to Peyton and Brady after 3 years. 

Why do other folks try to act like Dalton definitely can't be 12-14 to anyone other than a "homer"? 

Btw, I'd be curious to know which QB really can "carry a team" on his own. Even if you just want to classify Brady, Rodgers and Brees as that type of QB, there are only 5 QBs like that at most. I guess that means that most QB's would fall under your "mid-tier" classification, so I guess most of the league has a similar problem (you do make it sound like a problem). 

Fwiw, yes I would take Andy over all of those guys. 

Palmer: Dalton has been better than Palmer for 90% of his career, including last year.
Bradford: Lol just stop. 
Winston: I'll take the guy with only 15 INTs in the last 2 years over the guy with 33. Dalton has been better by just about every statistical measure.
Mariota: Again, Dalton has been better by every just about every statistical measure. While getting sacked at a much higher rate and with a run game that doesn't compare to Tennessee's.
Dak Prescott: Is it really unbelievable to you that people aren't buying Dak stock after 1 season behind the best line in football? We all (at least) saw the Bengals/Cowboys game last year, and it was obvious that Dak benefited greatly from having an eternity to throw the ball and also having a run game that clearly carried the team (Zeke led the league in rushing while Dak was 19th in pass yards).

[*bfine32*]

(07-01-2017, 11:43 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Why do other folks try to act like Dalton definitely can't be 12-14 to anyone other than a "homer"? 

Btw, I'd be curious to know which QB really can "carry a team" on his own. Even if you just want to classify Brady, Rodgers and Brees as that type of QB, there are only 5 QBs like that at most. I guess that means that most QB's would fall under your "mid-tier" classification, so I guess most of the league has a similar problem (you do make it sound like a problem). 

Fwiw, yes I would take Andy over all of those guys. 

Palmer: Dalton has been better than Palmer for 90% of his career, including last year.
Bradford: Lol just stop. 
Winston: I'll take the guy with only 15 INTs in the last 2 years over the guy with 33. Dalton has been better by just about every statistical measure.
Mariota: Again, Dalton has been better by every just about every statistical measure. While getting sacked at a much higher rate and with a run game that doesn't compare to Tennessee's.
Dak Prescott: Is it really unbelievable to you that people aren't buying Dak stock after 1 season behind the best line in football? We all (at least) saw the Bengals/Cowboys game last year, and it was obvious that Dak benefited greatly from having an eternity to throw the ball and also having a run game that clearly carried the team (Zeke led the league in rushing while Dak was 19th in pass yards).

Why do folks act like it's an insult to agree that Andy falls in the lower teens range.

Your "reasons" any is better than the one's listed sorta jump around:

Andy has a career passer rating of 89.1, Carson has a passer rating of 89.5 during that same timeframe. While CP9 has went over 4,000 4 times and Andy has done it 2 times. Not sure how that equals to 90% of his career

Since getting out of the blackhole of the Rams Sam has done very well at QB, to include better than Andy last year with zero running game and no receivers of note

Jameis' 1st 2 years were much better than Andy's (dude has never thrown for less that 4,000) and the arrow is pointing straight up. I have no doubt you would take Andy over Jamis, just don't be surprised that your line is much shorter and much more Orange and Black than the line that would take Jameis

Not sure what measurable you are using to put Andy above Mariota; as Mariota has a career passer rating of well over 90. I see you pointed to Mariota's running game. Why no mention of his receiving corp?

Not "unbelievable" to me at all that folks are not buying Dak stock; however, is it unbelievable to you that some folks are buying it after he came of the best Rookie season in NFL history? Hell we won't even bring into focus his first palyoff game versus Andy's. 

Point is ranking Andy 18th (the article even says they expect Andy to bounce back) is not an insult and can easily be justified.  

[*bfine32*]

FWIW, These are the QBs I'd rather go into 2018 with than Andy:
Tom Brady
Andy Luck
Marcus Mariota
Ben Rothliesberger
Philip Rivers
Alex Smith
David Carr
Dak Prescot
Kirk Cousins
Matt Ryan
Jameis Winston
Drew Brees
Cam Newton
Matt Stafford
Aaron Rodgers
Russell Wilson

So I guess I have Andy rated around 17th. As I mentioned before he's not the problem on this team (at least in Regular season), but I'm not going to put him anywhere around 11th best in the NFL.

[Joelist]

Yahoo Sports? Really? Basically the National Enquirer of Sportscasting, and now that the Verizon acquisition of Yahoo is complete it is on borrowed time before Verizon shuts it down.

[Luvnit2]

I don't get torn up when writers who I have zero respect make an attempt to devalue AD or others. I have seen the same song and dance over and over again. The fact is AD lost two solid WR's prior to the start of the year in Sanu and Jones. He did not have a top 5 catching TE talent in Eifert most of the year. He lost Green for 6 games who is arguably a top 5 WR in the NFL and future HOF player. Yet,he had a very solid year.

Add in the line stunk last year. I thought AD proved last year under this circumstances he is a top 10 QB. So, in my mind writers who write for popularity (ratings) who snub guys like small market AD to push the bigger market guys are just chumps with a pen and paper.

[*Nately120*]

(07-02-2017, 08:07 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I don't get torn up when writers who I have zero respect make an attempt to devalue AD or others. I have seen the same song and dance over and over again. The fact is AD lost two solid WR's prior to the start of the year in Sanu and Jones. He did not have a top 5 catching TE talent in Eifert most of the year. He lost Green for 6 games who is arguably a top 5 WR in the NFL and future HOF player. Yet,he had a very solid year.

Add in the line stunk last year. I thought AD proved last year under this circumstances he is a top 10 QB. So, in my mind writers who write for popularity (ratings) who snub guys like small market AD to push the bigger market guys are just chumps with a pen and paper.

It sure was nice of the Bengals to win a whopping 6 games to make the yearly quest of badmouthing the Bengals even easier for these pundits. 

The Bengals are victims of media bias. Let's ignore the fact that we haven't made a playoff push in 26 years and we have an owner who does nothing to promote the brand, though. 

Lots of pundits point out that Dalton is in a bad situation but they get labeled as Bengals haters by us. There is just no winning with the fanbase of a disenfranchised franchise.

[Housh]

Iv watched a lot of football.

Dalton doesn't come off as a guy who is ranked in the late teens of QBs in TODAYS NFL.

Hes a top 10 QB at least.


Hes also been one of the QBs with the worst supporting cast in the league. His line is awful, his top running backs and receivers are literally almost always hurt for big games. Also his defense doesn't help at all in the field position game. They may get the stops here and there but they don't get sacks or turnovers so almost every offensive possession Dalton has to go the length of the field to score.



Dalton aint a top tier QB but if you told me you could name 10 QBs better than him id have to ask you to take all 10 of those QBs and act like they were on our team with our line. Saying stuff like Dak Prescott is better is just disrespect to me. You put Rex Grossman behind that o line and hed be amazing.

[Housh]

(07-01-2017, 03:17 PM)bfine32 Wrote: FWIW, These are the QBs I'd rather go into 2018 with than Andy:
Tom Brady
Andy Luck
Marcus Mariota
Ben Rothliesberger
Philip Rivers
Alex Smith
David Carr
Dak Prescot
Kirk Cousins
Matt Ryan
Jameis Winston
Drew Brees
Cam Newton
Matt Stafford
Aaron Rodgers
Russell Wilson

So I guess I have Andy rated around 17th. As I mentioned before he's not the problem on this team (at least in Regular season), but I'm not going to put him anywhere around 11th best in the NFL.

I could only agree with 7 of your names. I also wanted to cross over Derek Carr until he balled out for another season or 2. I think anybody whose been doing it 2 years or less is automatically out. I almost take it as disrespect to rank Dak and Winston ahead of Andy right now. Couple other names are sexy names but Dalton statistically has been as good or BETTER than them for the duration of their careers. Like Cam, and Alex Smith.

Based off my ideas Dalton is easily top 10. Give Andy Dak's o line and hell be just as good or even better at throwing the ball. Also remember Dalton is very sneaky at running in first downs and TDs. Hes not a runner but is consistently one of the most effective scoring QBs on the ground.


My fave feature of Andy's is he never complains or throws anyone under the bus. He plays hard and takes it all in stride. When guys are hurt he plays with the same passion as he does during the 2 games all season where everyone is healthy lol

Im glad hes our QB

[Joelist]

Dak Prescott had the perfect set of circumstances his rookie season. Dominant running game, dominant offensive line, quality WRs and TE and playing in a weak division. I'm not hating on him but the reality is he rarely faced any kind of pressure in the pocket and the run game meant defenses could not key on the pass. And even with that he very much posted game manager numbers.

[*ochocincos*]

(06-30-2017, 05:55 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So you have Andy above "separated from":

Marcus Mariota
Carson Palmer
Sam Bradford
Jamis Winston
Dak Prescott

Give him a homer rank of 15th. Why do folks get mad when a site rates him late teens? The dude is a mid-tier QB. Too good to replace, not good enough to carry a team.  Folks that say they want to see more from the young QBs were the same folks that were comparing him to Peyton and Brady after 3 years. 

I didn't say I have Andy "separated from" list you gave, you said that.
You told me to give 14 names and then Andy, so I did.

And yes, I'd put Dalton over Bradford.
All the others I would put into the same tier (which I did in a separate thread from a month or so ago).
I'm probably harder on Palmer than most because of so many frustrating memories when he was a Bengal (there were good memories too, not trying to say Palmer was terrible).
The reason I rank Dalton higher than the youngsters is because I want to see more than three years from a QB before I put them ahead of Dalton.
While Dalton hasn't been great, he's been consistent over six years.
Could Mariota, Winston, Prescott, and/or Carr surpass Dalton in my list? Sure they can. But right now I think at least a couple of those young QBs will be in line for some regression. That's why I keep them lower until after Year 3. Wait and See approach.

[*bfine32*]

(07-02-2017, 04:20 PM)Housh Wrote: I could only agree with 7 of your names. I also wanted to cross over Derek Carr until he balled out for another season or 2. I think anybody whose been doing it 2 years or less is automatically out. I almost take it as disrespect to rank Dak and Winston ahead of Andy right now. Couple other names are sexy names but Dalton statistically has been as good or BETTER than them for the duration of their careers. Like Cam, and Alex Smith.

Based off my ideas Dalton is easily top 10. Give Andy Dak's o line and hell be just as good or even better at throwing the ball. Also remember Dalton is very sneaky at running in first downs and TDs. Hes not a runner but is consistently one of the most effective scoring QBs on the ground.


My fave feature of Andy's is he never complains or throws anyone under the bus. He plays hard and takes it all in stride. When guys are hurt he plays with the same passion as he does during the 2 games all season where everyone is healthy lol

Im glad hes our QB

Did you really cross off Matt Ryan?

[Shake n Blake]

(07-01-2017, 02:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 1. Why do folks act like it's an insult to agree that Andy falls in the lower teens range.

2. Your "reasons" any is better than the one's listed sorta jump around:

3. Andy has a career passer rating of 89.1, Carson has a passer rating of 89.5 during that same timeframe. While CP9 has went over 4,000 4 times and Andy has done it 2 times. Not sure how that equals to 90% of his career

4. Since getting out of the blackhole of the Rams Sam has done very well at QB, to include better than Andy last year with zero running game and no receivers of note

5. Jameis' 1st 2 years were much better than Andy's (dude has never thrown for less that 4,000) and the arrow is pointing straight up. I have no doubt you would take Andy over Jamis, just don't be surprised that your line is much shorter and much more Orange and Black than the line that would take Jameis

6. Not sure what measurable you are using to put Andy above Mariota; as Mariota has a career passer rating of well over 90. I see you pointed to Mariota's running game. Why no mention of his receiving corp?

7. Not "unbelievable" to me at all that folks are not buying Dak stock; however, is it unbelievable to you that some folks are buying it after he came of the best Rookie season in NFL history? Hell we won't even bring into focus his first palyoff game versus Andy's. 

Point is ranking Andy 18th (the article even says they expect Andy to bounce back) is not an insult and can easily be justified.  

1. Because putting the QB with the 10th best active passer rating at 18th seems a bit much.

2. No they don't.

3. Dalton has had a better passer rating in 4 of the last 6 years. That includes Dalton's rookie season, where Palmer beat him by 0.1 points. So maybe I should've said Dalton has been better 66.7% of the time?

4. Who is "jumping around" again? Even if you just include Bradford's 2 years away from the Rams, he has thrown fewer TDs and more INT's than Dalton in the same amount of games. Dalton had a better rating by a whopping 19.8 points in 2015 and Bradford was better by 7.5 points last year. Even with better talent, Bradford has a losing record as starter (14-15) and hasn't even appeared in a playoff game. So if Dalton has been better over the last 2 years, better for their careers, has more accolades and achievements, and has made the playoffs...why are you picking Bradford?

5. "Much better"? Really? The only big difference I see is bulk yardage. Everything else is similar with Dalton slightly winning some categories and Winston slightly winning others. Dalton had an 83.9 rating while Winston has an 85.2. Adjusting for the fact that passing numbers seem to gradually increase every year, I'd say there's little to no difference there. BTW...this list is about right now, not who you would want 5 years from now, or who was better early in their careeer. You're jumping around more than House of Pain. 

6. Over the same time frame, Dalton has a better passer rating, 1 more total TDs, 4 fewer INTs, 5 fewer fumbles, and 1202 more passing yards. As for receivers, you can do worse than Rishard Matthews, Kendall Wright and Delanie Walker. Just ask Dalton after last year.

7. Depends on how much stock you're buying. It was a fine rookie season (best ever is highly debatable), but he also probably had the easiest scenario for a rookie QB that I've seen since Kaepernick. He had established veteran stars at WR and TE, the league's leading rusher and the best line in the business. We've seen what Dalton is capable of with even 2/3rd's of that. Btw, where is Kaepernick now (a guy I'm sure you and others swore was better than Dalton early on).

(07-01-2017, 03:17 PM)bfine32 Wrote: FWIW, These are the QBs I'd rather go into 2018 with than Andy:
Tom Brady
Andy Luck
Marcus Mariota
Ben Rothliesberger
Philip Rivers
Alex Smith
David Carr
Dak Prescot
Kirk Cousins
Matt Ryan
Jameis Winston
Drew Brees
Cam Newton
Matt Stafford
Aaron Rodgers
Russell Wilson

So I guess I have Andy rated around 17th. As I mentioned before he's not the problem on this team (at least in Regular season), but I'm not going to put him anywhere around 11th best in the NFL.

Ok. So basically you put every decent QB in the league ahead of Dalton.

[sandwedge]

(07-01-2017, 03:17 PM)bfine32 Wrote: FWIW, These are the QBs I'd rather go into 2018 with than Andy:
Tom Brady
Andy Luck
Marcus Mariota
Ben Rothliesberger
Philip Rivers
Alex Smith
David Carr
Dak Prescot
Kirk Cousins
Matt Ryan
Jameis Winston
Drew Brees
Cam Newton
Matt Stafford
Aaron Rodgers
Russell Wilson

So I guess I have Andy rated around 17th. As I mentioned before he's not the problem on this team (at least in Regular season), but I'm not going to put him anywhere around 11th best in the NFL.

This is why people shouldn't drunk post.....

[*bfine32*]

(07-03-2017, 01:28 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. Because putting the QB with the 10th best active passer rating at 18th seems a bit much.

2. No they don't.

3. Dalton has had a better passer rating in 4 of the last 6 years. That includes Dalton's rookie season, where Palmer beat him by 0.1 points. So maybe I should've said Dalton has been better 66.7% of the time?

4. Who is "jumping around" again? Even if you just include Bradford's 2 years away from the Rams, he has thrown fewer TDs and more INT's than Dalton in the same amount of games. Dalton had a better rating by a whopping 19.8 points in 2015 and Bradford was better by 7.5 points last year. Even with better talent, Bradford has a losing record as starter (14-15) and hasn't even appeared in a playoff game. So if Dalton has been better over the last 2 years, better for their careers, has more accolades and achievements, and has made the playoffs...why are you picking Bradford?

5. "Much better"? Really? The only big difference I see is bulk yardage. Everything else is similar with Dalton slightly winning some categories and Winston slightly winning others. Dalton had an 83.9 rating while Winston has an 85.2. Adjusting for the fact that passing numbers seem to gradually increase every year, I'd say there's little to no difference there. BTW...this list is about right now, not who you would want 5 years from now, or who was better early in their careeer. You're jumping around more than House of Pain. 

6. Over the same time frame, Dalton has a better passer rating, 1 more total TDs, 4 fewer INTs, 5 fewer fumbles, and 1202 more passing yards. As for receivers, you can do worse than Rishard Matthews, Kendall Wright and Delanie Walker. Just ask Dalton after last year.

7. Depends on how much stock you're buying. It was a fine rookie season (best ever is highly debatable), but he also probably had the easiest scenario for a rookie QB that I've seen since Kaepernick. He had established veteran stars at WR and TE, the league's leading rusher and the best line in the business. We've seen what Dalton is capable of with even 2/3rd's of that. Btw, where is Kaepernick now (a guy I'm sure you and others swore was better than Dalton early on).


Ok. So basically you put every decent QB in the league ahead of Dalton.

Of course I jumped around; it was a mirror of your reply and to show that an argument can be made. You and others can roll with it being disrespectful. Put Right Now in bold all you want and I'd still take Mariota and Winston over Andy right now. If you and others here think that's unfair, drunk, ect....that's on you. I'd be willing to wager you guys would have to call a few more folks unfair or drunk

As to my list: I did not put every decent QB in the league ahead of him. Hell I left off 2 QBs that have won a SB, I left off Tannehill who is younger and coming off a better year. I left off CP9 because I don't like him. I didn't put any rookies on there; although I am eager to see what Tribisky can do in Chicago.

You and others think top 10ish is right, I think late teens in right. All we can doo is look what those that get paid to rate such things place folks for validation of our views.

I'm getting a hoot out of those that are saying we "must wait" to give the young QBs any credit. How quick were those very folks comparing Andy to Peyton and Brady?

As to the top 10 active passer rating. That sounds great. That ties him with Matt Schaub.   

[*bfine32*]

(07-03-2017, 09:30 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I didn't say I have Andy "separated from" list you gave, you said that.

Actually I stated separated because you included folks you couldn't separate him from. So I figured if they weren't on the list you had separated them from Andy. I do give you credit to be unbiased enough to consider that mid-late teens may not be a terrible place for Andy.  

[*Nately120*]

Good ol' Bengals fans. We want to cross off Carr and Prescott etc. but wanted the world to apologize profusely for doubting us when we ended up going 9-7 and losing to a 3rd string QB in the playoffs.

There is no winning...but this thread is about Dalton. When Dalton was drafted by the Bengals and Boomer said "Good luck, kid" we decided he was just a big ol' hater. Here we are 6 years later using the fact that Dalton was brought into a relatively stagnant situation to defend him (and rightly so, in my mind).

[Housh]

There aint 15 Qbs better than Andy flat out.

Forget situations, forget years in the league. Andy is not in the bottom half of QBs in the league. I think its silly to even say that.

Arguments can be made for top 10, and 10-15 tho.

[Essex Johnson]

(07-01-2017, 03:17 PM)bfine32 Wrote: FWIW, These are the QBs I'd rather go into 2018 with than Andy:
Tom Brady
Andy Luck
Marcus Mariota
Ben Rothliesberger
Philip Rivers
Alex Smith
David Carr
Dak Prescot
Kirk Cousins
Matt Ryan
Jameis Winston
Drew Brees
Cam Newton
Matt Stafford
Aaron Rodgers
Russell Wilson

So I guess I have Andy rated around 17th. As I mentioned before he's not the problem on this team (at least in Regular season), but I'm not going to put him anywhere around 11th best in the NFL.

I will take Andy over these QBs  highlights and I am on the bubble with Newton, Stafford and Carr 
 Newton especially after watching him last year his skills at QB really regressed in my opinion...  Stafford and Andy are splitting hairs for me .. Carr i think is the very solid but not great difference with Andy.. Finally Dak only has One year is not enough for me for Dak to put him above Andy at this point.. so im high end 11, low end 14

[Shake n Blake]

(07-03-2017, 04:16 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 1. Of course I jumped around; it was a mirror of your reply and to show that an argument can be made. You and others can roll with it being disrespectful. 2. Put Right Now in bold all you want and I'd still take Mariota and Winston over Andy right now. If you and others here think that's unfair, drunk, ect....that's on you. I'd be willing to wager you guys would have to call a few more folks unfair or drunk

3. As to my list: I did not put every decent QB in the league ahead of him. Hell I left off 2 QBs that have won a SB, I left off Tannehill who is younger and coming off a better year. I left off CP9 because I don't like him. I didn't put any rookies on there; although I am eager to see what Tribisky can do in Chicago.

4. You and others think top 10ish is right, I think late teens in right. All we can doo is look what those that get paid to rate such things place folks for validation of our views.

5. I'm getting a hoot out of those that are saying we "must wait" to give the young QBs any credit. How quick were those very folks comparing Andy to Peyton and Brady?

6. As to the top 10 active passer rating. That sounds great. That ties him with Matt Schaub.   

1. Ok. If you say so Mr. Bfine.

2. If that's your opinion, I respect that. The part I don't respect is where you've been suggesting that only a homer would take Andy over some of the guys you listed. It's quite easy (as I've shown you) to make an argument for Andy against any of them. He stacks up quite well and has had a fine career. Perhaps saying he belongs in the top 10 is a bit optimistic, but saying he ranks 18th is definitely about as bad as you can possibly rank him without people brushing your opinion off as utterly ridiculous.

3. I would've put Eli on your list over Mariota or Winston. IMO, Tannehill did not have a better season than Dalton although it looks debatable either way. CP9 wasn't better than Dalton so whether you like him or not should be irrelevant. Trubisky isn't even viewed as a good prospect...it was a weak QB class.

4. I'm sure you've always deferred to these same "experts" when it's been time to rank coaches? Somehow I doubt that.

5. I've never made that Peyton (or Brady) comparison. You'll have to take that up with guys like Philhos. So you can't use that argument against me. 

6. Matt Schaub was a fantastic QB for most of his career. Dalton's career rating is also better than:

Andrew Luck
Derek Carr
Carson Palmer
Matt Stafford
Cam Newton
Ryan Tannehill
Eli Manning
Joe Flacco
Alex Smith
Sam Bradford