According to yahoo, Bengals tied with Giants for 18th best QB options in the NFL

[Pat5775]

(07-07-2017, 09:00 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The entire team has not been bad. There have been some standout performances:

Benson's 168 yard performance in '09

Green-Ellis running for over 5 ypc, Leon's pick 6, Green's 80 yard performance in '12

Marvin's 130 yard performance, Gresh with 68 and a TD, Rey's 12 tackle game in '13

V.Rey with 6 tackles and an FF, the RBs combining for over 10 catches and 100 yards in '14

Green with 71 and a TD, Burfict with 5 tackles, 1 INT, 1 sack, and 1 FF in '15

We've had plenty folks show up; yet some will look to dismiss these to divert blame from the elephant in the room. It's just you're fighting from both sides when your QB and team leader is out there absolutely stinking it up. The fact that we've come close to overcoming these performances 2-3 times is amazing. Some would just look to dimiss these,

I know you and many other want to say it is the fault of a HC with a defensive pedigree that Andy has shit the bed 4 straight times; however, it is not a logic I can buy. The QB has choked; who knows why? In Carson's case I remember reading a study by Carl Jung that explained his personality type would cause him to crash on the big stage; perhaps he needs to study Andy and Mikey come off the dime to pay for a couple sports psychologists. 

Oh, and even though you did not answer my question I will answer yours directly if the above didn't point to it. Any player that played poorly in any game is the fault of the player.

Oh so close. A damn solid argument up into the last line. What if the players were set up for failure? What if the entire team was handcuffed by piss-poor game planning and minimal (or a complete lack of) adjustments? If that were the case then it absolutely is not the complete fault of the players.

I'll admit, Andy has played poorly in the playoffs (and Primetime and steeler games). But again, it's been 14 years. 14 years of the same thing. At what point will you acknowledge that Marvin is more a part of the problem than the solution? What has Marvin ever done to make you think he's capable of leading this team to a super bowl win? 

[*bfine32*]

(07-08-2017, 09:22 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I agree and as I looked back, our future HOF receiver dropped a TD against the Chargers (around 50 yards) in the home loss. He also dropped a TD pass against the Texans. Those 2 drops hurt AD's QB rating in playoff games.

But my main point of your argument is you are using around 5% of the games AD has started as your 100% analysis of him. You ignore his numbers are better than most active QB's in the regular season, but inflate his poor numbers in the post season. One playoff game, he has Rex B. has his best receiver option. He also played at Houston (great defense) as a rookie and 2nd year QB with a rookie and 2nd year number 1 receiver who is great, but made a lot of mistakes in the early years too.

This is just not true and I have mentioned such in previous posts. IF I simply used those playoff games as a measuring stick then I would have Eli, Flacco, Kaepernick, and pretty much any other NFL QB that has taken a snap in the playoffs over Andy and despite popular opinion I do not. If there were no such thing as playoffs Andy would arguably be a top 10 QB and Marvin would definitely be a top 10 HC.

Unfortunately you must consider these performances when ranking the players/HC. This is why I have Andy around 17 in the NFL, hell, I could by 16th if it would make folks happier that I placed him in the top 1/2.  The difference is I have Marvin around 19ish as a HC and many around here have him 33rd. Why? Playoff results. 

[Essex Johnson]

(07-08-2017, 02:40 PM)bfine32 Wrote: This is just not true and I have mentioned such in previous posts. IF I simply used those playoff games as a measuring stick then I would have Eli, Flacco, Kaepernick, and pretty much any other NFL QB that has taken a snap in the playoffs over Andy and despite popular opinion I do not. If there were no such thing as playoffs Andy would arguably be a top 10 QB and Marvin would definitely be a top 10 HC.

Unfortunately you must consider these performances when ranking the players/HC. This is why I have Andy around 17 in the NFL, hell, I could by 16th if it would make folks happier that I placed him in the top 1/2.  The difference is I have Marvin around 19ish as a HC and many around here have him 33rd. Why? Playoff results. 

So using your logic.. first how can you rate a QB that has no or maybe one game playoff results with someone that has multiple games either way.. finally if you are rating playoff results in looking at ranking of QBs.. are you also using making the playoffs in your ranking ??  

Seems to me if you going to rank a QB by how they perform in the playoffs,, I would also include getting to the playoffs in my ranking. 

[Essex Johnson]

(07-07-2017, 09:00 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The entire team has not been bad. There have been some standout performances:

Benson's 168 yard performance in '09

Green-Ellis running for over 5 ypc, Leon's pick 6, Green's 80 yard performance in '12

Marvin's 130 yard performance, Gresh with 68 and a TD, Rey's 12 tackle game in '13

V.Rey with 6 tackles and an FF, the RBs combining for over 10 catches and 100 yards in '14

Green with 71 and a TD, Burfict with 5 tackles, 1 INT, 1 sack, and 1 FF in '15

We've had plenty folks show up; yet some will look to dismiss these to divert blame from the elephant in the room. It's just you're fighting from both sides when your QB and team leader is out there absolutely stinking it up. The fact that we've come close to overcoming these performances 2-3 times is amazing. Some would just look to dimiss these,

I know you and many other want to say it is the fault of a HC with a defensive pedigree that Andy has shit the bed 4 straight times; however, it is not a logic I can buy. The QB has choked; who knows why? In Carson's case I remember reading a study by Carl Jung that explained his personality type would cause him to crash on the big stage; perhaps he needs to study Andy and Mikey come off the dime to pay for a couple sports psychologists. 

Oh, and even though you did not answer my question I will answer yours directly if the above didn't point to it. Any player that played poorly in any game is the fault of the player.

So again I just don't see your logic in your ranking of QB.. and downgrading more with playoff performance... it seems a bit twisted.. if a QB like Andy is getting to the playoffs but not performing well gets dropped for that over say a player that maybe has performed well with stats but say gets to playoffs maybe 1 time out of 5 years.. maybe they even win one game in playoffs ,, it seems that that QB that is getting to the playoffs year after year... is getting there because they have performed well in general in regular season or they would not even be in the playoffs.

I do believe Andy does get knocked back some for his playoff performance as he should.. maybe a couple spots but lets say he had the exact stats and overall win record but only made the playoffs 2 times.. and say was 0-2 in the playoffs would you have him higher in your ranking than you do being 0-4. 

[Shake n Blake]

(07-07-2017, 09:00 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The entire team has not been bad. There have been some standout performances:

Benson's 168 yard performance in '09

Green-Ellis running for over 5 ypc, Leon's pick 6, Green's 80 yard performance in '12

Marvin's 130 yard performance, Gresh with 68 and a TD, Rey's 12 tackle game in '13

V.Rey with 6 tackles and an FF, the RBs combining for over 10 catches and 100 yards in '14

Green with 71 and a TD, Burfict with 5 tackles, 1 INT, 1 sack, and 1 FF in '15

We've had plenty folks show up; yet some will look to dismiss these to divert blame from the elephant in the room. It's just you're fighting from both sides when your QB and team leader is out there absolutely stinking it up. The fact that we've come close to overcoming these performances 2-3 times is amazing. Some would just look to dimiss these,

I know you and many other want to say it is the fault of a HC with a defensive pedigree that Andy has shit the bed 4 straight times; however, it is not a logic I can buy. The QB has choked; who knows why? In Carson's case I remember reading a study by Carl Jung that explained his personality type would cause him to crash on the big stage; perhaps he needs to study Andy and Mikey come off the dime to pay for a couple sports psychologists. 

Oh, and even though you did not answer my question I will answer yours directly if the above didn't point to it. Any player that played poorly in any game is the fault of the player.

There are 22 starters on a football team, we've played 7 playoff games, and this is all you can scrape together? Most of these weren't even impressive performances. 6 tackles and a FF? 11 carries for 63 yards and 2 catches for negative 9? Some average looking games for AJ and Gresh? The fact that this is some of the best performances we've seen across 7 playoff games is just more evidence for my argument.

What about these duds?

2005

Kitna: 24-40-197-1-2 (60.1 rating) + fumble
Rudi and Chris Perry: 15-59-1 (3.9 per carry) with 8 catches for 25 yards (3.1 per catch)
Chad: 4-59-0 on 6 targets
Housh: 4-25-1 on 11 targets

Defense allowed 31 points, 144 rush yards and a 148.7 passer rating to Ben. Only 1 sack and 0 turnovers forced (from a D that led the league in that category)

2009

Palmer: 18-36-146-0-1 (58.3 rating) + fumble
Chad: 2-28-0 on 6 targets
Caldwell: 2-25-0 on 8 targets
Shayne: 0-2 on clutch FGs

4th ranked defense allowed 24 points, 171 rush yards and a 139.4 rating to Mark Sanchez. 0 sacks and 0 turnovers forced.

2011

Benson and Bernard Scott: 13-25-1 (1.9 per carry) with 4 catches for 27 yards (Benson had a drive-killing drop)
AJ Green: 5-47-0 on 11 targets

Top 5 defense allowed 31 points, 188 rush yards and a 97.7 rating to TJ Yates. Only 2 sacks and 0 turnovers forced.

2012

No big choke jobs on offense outside of Dalton, although it's clear we abandoned the run too early in a close game (BJGE went 11-63-0)

Defense held Texans to 19 points, but allowed 158 rush yards. Only 1 sack, but did get the pick 6 by Leon.

(This is the only game where you could really argue that if Dalton just played a little better, we could've won)

2013

Gio: 12-45-0 (3.8 per carry) with 7 catches for 73 yards, but was inefficient with targets (11) and had a crucial fumble
AJ Green: 3-34-0 on 9 targets

Top 3 defense allowed 27 points, 196 rush yards and a 118.7 rating to Rivers. Only 1 sack and 0 turnovers forced.

2014

Hill/Bernard: 16-53-1 (only 3.3 per carry) with 8 catches for 46 yards (only 5.8 per catch)
Mo Sanu: 3-31-0 on 7 targets in a game where we needed him desperately
Brandon Tate: Nothing on 5 targets

Top 5 defense allowed 26 points, 110 rush yards and a 104.0 rating to Luck. Only 1 sack and 1 turnover forced.

2015 

McCarron: 23-41-212-1-1 (68.3 rating) + 3 fumbles
Hill/Gio: 18-78-1 (4.3 per carry...which was inflated by Hill's 38 yarder) with 5 catches for 29 yards on 8 targets + Hill's crucial fumble
Eifert: 5-58-0 on 9 targets
Jones and Sanu: 7-49-0 on 12 targets

Defense allowed only 18 points, but allowed 167 rush yards and a 92.0 rating to Ben. Defense did get 4 sacks and 2 turnovers. Easily the best game for the D in the playoffs and it still wasn't all that impressive. Especially considering the lack of composure at the end. This game is also yet more proof that the defense isn't adversely affected by a multiple turnover game from the QB/offense. We had 4 turnovers in this game (most ever in the playoffs under Marv) yet the D turned in their best performance.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now looking this all over, what makes you think it's all Andy's fault? Especially in the 3 games he didn't even suit up for?

[Earendil]

(07-10-2017, 12:10 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Now looking this all over, what makes you think it's all Andy's fault? Especially in the 3 games he didn't even suit up for?

Bias

[*bfine32*]

(07-10-2017, 12:23 PM)Earendil Wrote: Bias

This is hilarious. I generally agree with where the experts rank Andy and I'm the one who has bias. 

[Earendil]

(07-10-2017, 12:51 PM)bfine32 Wrote: This is hilarious. I generally agree with where the experts rank Andy and I'm the one who has bias. 

I don't care about expert rankings.  What I care about is the fact that you can't seem to recognize that there is a systemic problem with this team in the playoffs that goes beyond Andy Dalton.  I'll admit he hasn't played well in those games, but to put those losses solely on his shoulders is just wrong. Has he been part of the problem? Sure, I'll grant you that.  But as I've said before, there's plenty of blame to go around on this team.

And here I go doing the same thing I said others shouldn't do, and taking the bait.

[Essex Johnson]

(07-10-2017, 12:51 PM)bfine32 Wrote: This is hilarious. I generally agree with where the experts rank Andy and I'm the one who has bias. 

Well here is irony... does one year of not making the playoffs , having a losing season though your stats are decent move you that much in the QB ranking ?  I pulled some expert articles on NFL QB rankings and look where they had Andy after 2016

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2016/6/2/11841708/andy-dalton-ranked-as-5th-best-quarterback-in-nfl

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000669961/article/andy-dalton-top10-quarterback-top-100-ranking-stokes-great-debate

So look at these experts talk about a top 10 QB after 2016.. now they are ranking him 19   WTF....

No way a QB with 6 years in should fall 9 spots from year 5th to year 6 performance.  

Look at Newton.. he had a horrible year last year and his ranking is from 7 to 10 in most polls, so he slipped maybe 3 to 5 spots from the year before.. Andy drops 8 to 10 spots and has a much better year last year than Cam... 

These rankings are way too volatile year to year for sure by the so called experts and yes their bias does seem to show when you compare the one year slide of Andy vs. Cam... after Andy had a better year than Cam overall

[Housh]

(07-09-2017, 10:36 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: So again I just don't see your logic in your ranking of QB.. and downgrading more with playoff performance... it seems a bit twisted.. if a QB like Andy is getting to the playoffs but not performing well gets dropped for that over say a player that maybe has performed well with stats but say gets to playoffs maybe 1 time out of 5 years.. maybe they even win one game in playoffs ,, it seems that that QB that is getting to the playoffs year after year... is getting there because they have performed well in general in regular season or they would not even be in the playoffs.

I do believe Andy does get knocked back some for his playoff performance as he should.. maybe a couple spots but lets say he had the exact stats and overall win record but only made the playoffs 2 times.. and say was 0-2 in the playoffs would you have him higher in your ranking than you do being 0-4. 

Its kinda like crapping on LeBron for making 8 finals because he could only win 3.


So would not making it at all have been better for his legacy?

If LeBron was 2-2 in the finals and was losing every year in the ECF would people want that more?


Not Dalton related but same family of criticism

[Housh]

Then theres a question of would Andy have had a monster playoff game by now his coach wasn't Marvin Lewis? Ill always remember that one year we had Green healthy in the playoffs, and Marvin thought it was a great idea to literally not even throw to him the ball and use him as a decoy.


You gotta be a special type of horrible to come up with that as your playoff gameplan.......

Or maybe Andy has a good game by now if we could find him a running back that could get more that 2 ypc in the playoffs. Kinda hard to find pass lanes when teams are dropping 7 and 8 into coverage and your RB still cant find yardage.

Maybe itd help if Andy's #1 option could actually find the endzone in the playoffs. Remember AJ Green only just recently scored his 1st EVER TD IN THE PLAYOFFS 




I definitely acknowledge Andy has made horrible plays in the playoffs. I remember wanting him dead after he threw that pick 6 to JJ Watt right before halftime.

But after I take in all the facts and history I am forced to lean more towards being an Andy apologist than a non believer of Andy. I mean lets keep it real. AJ McCarron got put in the same situation and ended up having a game as mediocre as what Andy usually does. Its just AJ McCarron happened to put together a great drive at the very end so we look at that game as a good game for some reason.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(07-08-2017, 09:15 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I think you are confusing the game played in week 17 at NY that year or another year. We played the Jets on a frozen field, but not at home.

 I was referring to b saying the field was frozen in the '09 playoff game.

[*ochocincos*]

It's clear many of these rankings put a lot of significance on playoff wins and stats, and that's where the Bengals and Dalton have floundered.
Personally, I put more stock into regular season performance since it's 16 games vs 1-4 games, and I also view QBs like starting pitchers in MLB...Need to have had at least a few seasons of good production before I consider you to be a good player because just like SPs, young QBs can have early success because there isn't much tape on them.

Regardless, with Dalton helping the Bengals to the playoffs in his first five seasons, that has come to be expected and keeps him above 20. Given the fact his stats have been poor and the Bengals have never won in the playoffs during his tenure, that's also why Dalton continues to hover around the middle while being considered to have a low ceiling. Since the Bengals did not make the playoffs last year, he's dropped a significant amount because he was expected to take the team to the playoffs.

If we want to see Dalton climb the rankings, the Bengals need to make the playoffs again and ideally win 1+ games with Dalton at the helm... and/or some of the younger more "hopeful" QBs like Carr, Mariota, Winston, Prescott follow the same route of rarely making/winning playoff games.

[Luvnit2]

(07-08-2017, 02:40 PM)bfine32 Wrote: This is just not true and I have mentioned such in previous posts. IF I simply used those playoff games as a measuring stick then I would have Eli, Flacco, Kaepernick, and pretty much any other NFL QB that has taken a snap in the playoffs over Andy and despite popular opinion I do not. If there were no such thing as playoffs Andy would arguably be a top 10 QB and Marvin would definitely be a top 10 HC.

Unfortunately you must consider these performances when ranking the players/HC. This is why I have Andy around 17 in the NFL, hell, I could by 16th if it would make folks happier that I placed him in the top 1/2.  The difference is I have Marvin around 19ish as a HC and many around here have him 33rd. Why? Playoff results. 

My argument to your playoff being added is I agree, it should be counted. But, I also think a QB should be dinged if he does not make the playoffs as a rookie, 2nd year QB and 3rd year QB because to play in the playoffs, it is your leader's job to get you into the playoffs. I don't see you ding guys who did not make it in the early years of them being on an NFL roster, some did not start right away so again they should be dinged as not good enough to start as well.

[Luvnit2]

(07-11-2017, 03:01 PM)Wyche Wrote:  I was referring to b saying the field was frozen in the '09 playoff game.

I know, I think in 2009 week 17 we played the Jets in New York on a frozen field which may have others confused. I agreed with you, I was at the 2009 game and not close to a frozen field (we have heaters anyway while they did not have them in the old Jet stadium), it was cold and windy, but field was in great shape..

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(07-14-2017, 12:11 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I know, I think in 2009 week 17 we played the Jets in New York on a frozen field which may have others confused. I agreed with you, I was at the 2009 game and not close to a frozen field (we have heaters anyway while they did not have them in the old Jet stadium), it was cold and windy, but field was in great shape..

Oh.....I gotcha....we were there too....pretty cold in the stands....thank goodness for vendor supplied Club Level seats so we could go in and warm up from time to time.

[*bfine32*]

(07-14-2017, 12:07 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: My argument to your playoff being added is I agree, it should be counted. But, I also think a QB should be dinged if he does not make the playoffs as a rookie, 2nd year QB and 3rd year QB because to play in the playoffs, it is your leader's job to get you into the playoffs. I don't see you ding guys who did not make it in the early years of them being on an NFL roster, some did not start right away so again they should be dinged as not good enough to start as well.

Hmm, many here say we cannot put QBs in their first couple years ahead of Andy; yet you suggest we can ding them if they do not make the playoffs or start right away. Perhaps we just look for ways to increase Andy's awesomeness. 

[Bengalsrob]

I didn't look through the rankings, but I believe they said him and Eli are ranked together? That's cool, because they've both picked up some sensational weapons, and we will see what they do with them this year, should be a fun watch. Still, I just have to pause and throw in my 2 cents on Marvin. When we're rolling on offense, dammit keep going; put the foot on the throttle and don't let up. It really hit home to me in one thread when somebody mentioned Sam Wyche crushing Glanville and the Oilers. Bellichick would beat everybody 50 points every game if he could. I don't necessarily subscribe to leaving the starters in to do it when we are WAY ahead, but we can cross that bridge when and if we come to it, because we are seldom in that situation.

[Essex Johnson]

(07-14-2017, 01:07 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Hmm, many here say we cannot put QBs in their first couple years ahead of Andy; yet you suggest we can ding them if they do not make the playoffs or start right away. Perhaps we just look for ways to increase Andy's awesomeness. 

And perhaps others  ding  with overbearing weight  for a single game compared to a complete season to bring down Andy's awesomeness

[*bfine32*]

(07-16-2017, 05:24 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: And perhaps others  ding  with overbearing weight  for a single game compared to a complete season to bring down Andy's awesomeness

Or Marvin's?