ESPN DOWN GRADES BENGALS DUE TO HEAD COACH

[*bfine32*]

(07-15-2017, 12:09 PM)McC Wrote: Boomer.

Boomer was drafted in 1984 by Paul Brown. 

[*Nately120*]

(07-15-2017, 12:02 PM)bfine32 Wrote: As to the demanding a trade part. List the other career QBs drafted during the MB era that have demanded a trade.....

Boomer and Carson, aka the only franchise QBs Mike Brown has ever had to deal with.  We can also point out that Sam Wyche, Corey Dillon, Chad Johnson (who was all Ohsostinko at that point so who cared), and Marvin Lewis himself all expressed a need to get away from this franchise at one point or another.  The fact that Mike Brown went with keeping a HC in Dave Shula under his thumb rather than being challenged by Bill Cowher also speaks to what he looks for in assembling a franchise.

Also, think back to the end of 2010 and Carson had some bounce-back games without Chad and TO on the field and people were fairly optimistic about Carson moving forward with the young WRs.  It wasn't until he wanted out that we decided that he was the reason we stunk.  The real saving grace was Gruden talking Mike Brown out of Mallet or Kaepernick and into Dalton.  We would have likely fallen as hard as the experts predicted had our storied GM gotten his way.  

(07-15-2017, 12:17 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Boomer was drafted in 1984 by Paul Brown. 

Right, Mike inherited Boomer and Wyche and alienated both of them in rather quick fashion and replaced them with David Klingler and Dave Shula. 

[*bfine32*]

(07-15-2017, 12:21 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Boomer and Carson, aka the only franchise QBs Mike Brown has ever had to deal with.  We can also point out that Sam Wyche, Corey Dillon, Chad Johnson (who was all Ohsostinko at that point so who cared), and Marvin Lewis himself all expressed a need to get away from this franchise at one point or another.  The fact that Mike Brown went with keeping a HC in Dave Shula under his thumb rather than being challenged by Bill Cowher also speaks to what he looks for in assembling a franchise.

Also, think back to the end of 2010 and Carson had some bounce-back games without Chad and TO on the field and people were fairly optimistic about Carson moving forward with the young WRs.  It wasn't until he wanted out that we decided that he was the reason we stunk.  The real saving grace was Gruden talking Mike Brown out of Mallet or Kaepernick and into Dalton.  We would have likely fallen as hard as the experts predicted had our storied GM gotten his way.  



Right, Mike inherited Boomer and Wyche and alienated both of them in rather quick fashion and replaced them with David Klingler and Dave Shula. 

First, I already pointed out Boomer was not drafted under the MB era.

Secondly, no one is arguing Mike Brown's prowess as a GM/owner (If you are looking for someone to sing MB's praises you will have to look elsewhere). I just balked at the assertion that one could compare the Boomer situation to the Carson situation in an attempt to mitigate what CP9 did. It is an insult to Boomer

MB's first draft choice was Boomer's replacement. Boomer saw this and other regime changes and offered to move out of the picture. MB agreed to trade Boomer if he stayed one year to mentor Klingler; Boomer agreed.

This is nothing similar to the personal decision CP9 made. The team had drafted/signed to build around him and had no viable replacement on the squad.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(07-15-2017, 10:58 AM)Nately120 Wrote: That's all well and good, but you have to admit the one thing you love more than just about everything except your family is a business that is run by a guy who isn't trying to make said business as great as it can be.  Carson Palmer was an employee who didn't feel the organization was trying to win and he wanted to play for one that was.  So be it.  The fact that you think Carson is a piss poor QB is also telling of your sour grapes mentality because he was top 3 at least once in Cincy and he's been top 3 once since he left.  The guy has been an NFL starting QB for over a decade and you can ask the Browns/Texans/Jets etc if those sort of players grow on trees.  

Only in pro sports do people like you and me take to heart the way a business is run.  I can't imagine us rooting for various sandwich shops and taking it personally when they do well, or don't do well, or hire and fire and lose employees.

You best not say shit about Jersey Mike's.....or we'll have problems.

[McC]

(07-15-2017, 12:17 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Boomer was drafted in 1984 by Paul Brown. 

Yes, but he was traded by Mike because he wanted out.

[*Nately120*]

(07-15-2017, 12:29 PM)bfine32 Wrote: First, I already pointed out Boomer was not drafted under the MB era.

Secondly, no one is arguing Mike Brown's prowess as a GM/owner (If you are looking for someone to sing MB's praises you will have to look elsewhere). I just balked at the assertion that one could compare the Boomer situation to the Carson situation in an attempt to mitigate what CP9 did. It is an insult to Boomer

MB's first draft choice was Boomer's replacement. Boomer saw this and other regime changes and offered to move out of the picture. MB agreed to trade Boomer if he stayed one year to mentor Klingler; Boomer agreed.

This is nothing similar to the personal decision CP9 made. The team had drafted/signed to build around him and had no viable replacement on the squad.

Well, it's clearly not THE SAME, but it's pretty similar.  Carson didn't elect to be drafted by the Bengals any more than Boomer wanted to see Paul Brown kick the bucket and leave his son in charge.  Carson DID elect to sign a long-term contract here, but both Boomer and Carson had little to no faith in Mike Brown...which is the main point.

When Carson demanded the trade I recall many of the former player analysts giving him grief but Boomer sticking up for by saying that people who didn't have to play for Mike Brown didn't understand the whole situation.  I think the main thing is that Carson himself admitted that it was a selfish decision and that he "quit" but the real argument is whether or not that was a justified action.  

This article from 2011 sums up the feelings I have, really.

https://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/mccarthy/story/2011-11-06/carson-Palmer-nfl-week-9/51099024/1

Some highlights:

When Sharpe asked Palmer if he quit on his old Cincinnati Bengals teammates and the city with his position he'd rather retire than play in Cincinnati, Palmer made no bones that he did.

"It was a selfish decision. I knew what I was doing. I knew the ramifications. I knew that it was what was best for me and what was best for them."
Carson said he understands he'll "take heat for it" but it was "the right decision to be made."


"Let's not kid ourselves. He did quit on them," said ex-Pittsburgh Steelers coach [/url]Bill Cowher. "It worked out fine for Cincinnati. It worked out fine for Oakland. But you can't have your way and say, 'I don't want to play for you. I'm going to quit until you trade me.' It doesn't work that way."



But former Bengals QB Boomer Esiason and ex-Miami Dolphins star [url=http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/People/Athletes/NFL/Dan+Marino]Dan Marino defended the 31-year old Palmer.
Said Esiason: "I've been in those shoes and walked a mile in those shoes. They don't build statues for players in Cincinnati, I can tell you."
Added Marino: "You only have one career. He only has one career. He didn't want it to be in Cincinnati anymore."


Boomer's point that they don't build statues for players in Cincy goes along with the notion that Mike Brown just isn't interested in building and promoting the Bengal's brand, history, and image.  You can see that in fans, too.  How many former players do we actually hold in high regard?  Munoz, and we all love Anderson but the guy had to go to Pittsburgh to actually win something.  He's just built a culture that kills loyalty and longevity (unless you are one of two very mediocre coaches), but it's his brand to build.

[*bfine32*]

(07-15-2017, 02:42 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Well, it's clearly not THE SAME, but it's pretty similar.  

No need to cap lock the same; as utilizing the same as my use of not the same was to point to dissimilar relevant aspects; apparently you thought I used it to illustrate exact clone.

If you think Boomer's and CP9's situations were similar then that's on you and as you mentioned earlier: folks may let their personal feelings get involved. The were not similar pretty or otherwise. 

But like I said: I merely interjected when I saw folks trying to mitigate what Carson did. Which has absolutely nothing to do with the OP.

[*Nately120*]

(07-15-2017, 02:54 PM)bfine32 Wrote: No need to cap lock the same; as utilizing the same as my use of not the same was to point to dissimilar relevant aspects; apparently you thought I used it to illustrate exact clone.

If you think Boomer's and CP9's situations were similar then that's on you and as you mentioned earlier: folks may let their personal feelings get involved. The were not similar pretty or otherwise. 

But like I said: I merely interjected when I saw folks trying to mitigate what Carson did. Which has absolutely nothing to do with the OP.

Both times Mike Brown was at odds with the HC and both times the franchise QB demanded a trade.  If that hain't similar, I don't know what similar is.  Anywho, we're off topic here let's get back to complaining about Marvin Lewis and/or complaining about the fact that he's the best coach we're ever going to get here thanks to Mike Brown.  

[*bfine32*]

(07-15-2017, 03:48 PM)Nately120 Wrote: If that hain't similar, I don't know what similar is.   

We'll take you at your word,

[*Nately120*]

(07-15-2017, 04:15 PM)bfine32 Wrote: We'll take you at your word,

Scenario 1
Mike Brown
HC of Bengals
QB of Bengals

Scenario 2
Mike Brown
HC of Bengals
QB of Bengals


Alas, the minutia betwixt those lines of text could fill volumes.

[*bfine32*]

(07-15-2017, 04:27 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Scenario 1
Mike Brown
HC of Bengals
QB of Bengals

Scenario 2
Mike Brown
HC of Bengals
QB of Bengals


Alas, the minutia betwixt those lines of text could fill volumes.

Scenario 1.

QB in the middle of a regime change
QB’s replacement had been drafted with the #5 overall team
QB had never played a down with Mike Brown as GM
QB had never played a down with his new HC
QB agrees to stay on a year to aid in the transition process
 
Scenario 2.
QB has been the leader of the same regime for 7 years
There is no viable replacement for QB on current roster
QB signed a Contract extension with the same regime
QB has had the same HC/OC his whole year
QB refuses to help the team in anyway and vows to never step foot in the facility again
 
You got: they are both QBs and had Head Coaches
 
This will be my last post on the matter as I have kicked this can down the road before. I just could not remain silent when someone(s) tried to tarnish Boomer Esiason by comparing his actions to Carson Palmer’s.

[*Nately120*]

(07-15-2017, 05:25 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Scenario 1.

QB in the middle of a regime change
QB’s replacement had been drafted with the #5 overall team
QB had never played a down with Mike Brown as GM
QB had never played a down with his new HC
QB agrees to stay on a year to aid in the transition process
 
Scenario 2.
QB has been the leader of the same regime for 7 years
There is no viable replacement for QB on current roster
QB signed a Contract extension with the same regime
QB has had the same HC/OC his whole year
QB refuses to help the team in anyway and vows to never step foot in the facility again
 
You got: they are both QBs and had Head Coaches
 
This will be my last post on the matter as I have kicked this can down the road before. I just could not remain silent when someone(s) tried to tarnish Boomer Esiason by comparing his actions to Carson Palmer’s.

I'm here to call out the guy who can't get along with a list of coaches and players.  I was unaware I was besmirching the honor of the guy who was first to defend Carson.  Wacky. 

[*Synric*]

I hate playing the blame game.

Marvin Lewis has built something in Cincy us fans haven't seen since the late 80s early 90s....a winner. I always see people saying if they fire Marvin Lewis and hire someone new it'll get them over the playoff hump. These people mention the very few coaches who have came right in and won a superbowl...but less face it coaches change every season (odd statistic from Good morning football said something like 16% last season and 14% the year before) and the odds point to them more likely running good teams into the ground like a Rex Ryan or Chip Kelly. Hell if you want to hit closer to home look at what happened to the defense after changing up a few of just the position coaches not even the coordinator.

Myself I absolutely love what Marvin has built in Cincy a family that good players want to apart of and coaches that leave Cincy try to imitate...that's why they resign more of their own draft picks than most of other teams in the league. 

[Pat5775]

(07-15-2017, 12:02 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Carson did not make a business decision; he made a personal one. No way was his objective to get closer to the Super Bowl when he left here for Oakland. As to the prolonging the career stance that too as incorrect; as he was sacked 1 out of every 20.1 passing attempts in Cincy while being sacked 1 out of every 17.9 attempts since he left (1-16.7 as a Cardinal). Seems both sides might be putting their own feelings in the situation.

As to the demanding a trade part. List the other career QBs drafted during the MB era that have demanded a trade.....

Why? They all sucked. No need to ask for a trade when no other team in the league would even want you to hand out Gatorade. 

[Pat5775]

(07-15-2017, 06:17 PM)Synric Wrote: I hate playing the blame game.

Marvin Lewis has built something in Cincy us fans haven't seen since the late 80s early 90s....a winner. I always see people saying if they fire Marvin Lewis and hire someone new it'll get them over the playoff hump. These people mention the very few coaches who have came right in and won a superbowl...but less face it coaches change every season (odd statistic from Good morning football said something like 16% last season and 14% the year before) and the odds point to them more likely running good teams into the ground like a Rex Ryan or Chip Kelly. Hell if you want to hit closer to home look at what happened to the defense after changing up a few of just the position coaches not even the coordinator.

Myself I absolutely love what Marvin has built in Cincy a family that good players want to apart of and coaches that leave Cincy try to imitate...that's why they resign more of their own draft picks than most of other teams in the league. 

Well don't get me wrong, I'm very happy that Marvin brought us out the the shit-storm that was the 90's and I'll always be grateful for that. But it's very obvious that's the best he's ever going to do. He is not going to get us over the hump. So why bother sticking with something that has shown time and time again it won't work? 

Be it poor game planning, lack of poise, poor adjustments, playing scared, playing the wrong personnel, misuse of timeouts, enabling pathetic behavior, taking the pedal of the gas too soon, etc. For some reason (or all reasons) Marvin has shown he is not the man to take us to a super bowl. That should be the ultimate goal IMO. Merely making the playoffs and winning the AFC north every few years, only to fall flat on our faces as soon as wild card weekend starts isn't cute anymore. You cannot be afriad to make a change and you cannot assume it will automatically bring us back to the 90's. 

In order to take that next step we need to find a coach that won't continuously have his team wilt under the pressure of big games. It's beyond time to take a chance on someone else. If it does bring us back to terrible, 90's-like football, so be it. At least the team will have tried to make themselves better.

[*Synric*]

(07-16-2017, 02:24 AM)Pat5775 Wrote: Be it poor game planning, lack of poise, poor adjustments, playing scared, playing the wrong personnel, misuse of timeouts, enabling pathetic behavior, taking the pedal of the gas too soon, etc. For some reason (or all reasons) Marvin has shown he is not the man to take us to a super bowl.

Every statement here is a matter of opinion and pointing blame at just one individual when it's a team effort. OC and DC are a MAJOR PART OF the game planning, adjustments, poise, player development not to mention position coaches. Everyone is to blame for poor playoff performances not just Marvin Lewis. 

I know the next argument people make after I say this is well its been different teams and assistant coaches Marvin Lewis is thr only constant. I reply yea but assistant coaches under Marvin Lewis go on to be head coaches and every single one of them day the same thing....they want to build what Lewis has in Cincy.

The way I feel about it is The grass is rarely greener on thr other side of the fence. There are a hell of alot more Rex Ryans and Chip Kelly's that will run a good team into thr ground and thr good players leave than there are Jon Grudens. Me im stickimg with thr guy that gives them rhe chance by getting to the playoffs than one that might might be the chosen one the savior. That's my opinion a5 least...of course I need a new drink and I'm completely full of shat.

[Pat5775]

(07-16-2017, 03:29 AM)Synric Wrote: Every statement here is a matter of opinion and pointing blame at just one individual when it's a team effort. OC and DC are a MAJOR PART OF the game planning, adjustments, poise, player development not to mention position coaches. Everyone is to blame for poor playoff performances not just Marvin Lewis. 

I know the next argument people make after I say this is well its been different teams and assistant coaches Marvin Lewis is thr only constant. I reply yea but assistant coaches under Marvin Lewis go on to be head coaches and every single one of them day the same thing....they want to build what Lewis has in Cincy.

The way I feel about it is The grass is rarely greener on thr other side of the fence. There are a hell of alot more Rex Ryans and Chip Kelly's that will run a good team into thr ground and thr good players leave than there are Jon Grudens. Me im stickimg with thr guy that gives them rhe chance by getting to the playoffs than one that might might be the  chosen one the savior. That's my opinion a5 least...of course I need a new drink and I'm completely full of shat.

Let me have what you're drinking, I want to get loaded too 

[*Nately120*]

(07-15-2017, 06:17 PM)Synric Wrote: I hate playing the blame game.

Marvin Lewis has built something in Cincy us fans haven't seen since the late 80s early 90s....a winner. I always see people saying if they fire Marvin Lewis and hire someone new it'll get them over the playoff hump. These people mention the very few coaches who have came right in and won a superbowl...but less face it coaches change every season (odd statistic from Good morning football said something like 16% last season and 14% the year before) and the odds point to them more likely running good teams into the ground like a Rex Ryan or Chip Kelly. Hell if you want to hit closer to home look at what happened to the defense after changing up a few of just the position coaches not even the coordinator.

Myself I absolutely love what Marvin has built in Cincy a family that good players want to apart of and coaches that leave Cincy try to imitate...that's why they resign more of their own draft picks than most of other teams in the league. 

Meh, this whole narrative that we are a consistent winner than the rest of the NFL should hold in high regard played a lot better before we won 6 games and missed the playoffs by a mile.  Optimism is all well and good, but you have to admit the bar around here is set pretty low if we are supposed to hold our heads up high and rub our proverbial one-n-done rings in people's faces.

Marvin Lewis is what winning looks like to Bengals fans only...it reminds me of the way 4 straight SB losses only looked like winning to Bills fans.  If you can't win it all, redfine what winning is.

[*bfine32*]

(07-16-2017, 02:08 AM)Pat5775 Wrote: Why? They all sucked. No need to ask for a trade when no other team in the league would even want you to hand out Gatorade. 

Not sure I would put Jeff Blake in the unable to hand out Gatorade category. But that's just me

[*bfine32*]

(07-16-2017, 10:59 AM)Nately120 Wrote: If you can't win it all, redfine what winning is.

Or if you make the playoffs 5 of 6 years. Winning your division a couple times along the way, redefine what failure is. Stupid Bengals fans