Bengals Turned Down 2nd Rounder

[THE PISTONS]

(08-10-2017, 04:20 PM)BengalD Wrote: Think you hit the nail on the head. It's kind of like an insurance policy for sustainable play this year and next year should Dalton sustain a serious injury. AJ becomes the next franchise QB.

Yeah...and believe me I really like Dalton and think he's light-years away from McCarron.

But...I wonder IF the Bengals feel the same way. The really expensive years of Daltons contract are coming up too and if they go to McCarron...they could likely save $4-6 million a year.

[THE PISTONS]

(08-10-2017, 04:38 PM)Wyche Wrote: Leonard pretty well sums it up for me Xeno.  Besides, maybe we could turn that 2nd rounder into a baller on the oline.

That's the thing. Before the draft...you use the 2nd on offensive line or get another good player.

Cam Robinson went at 34. Forest Lamp G went at 38. Kizer went at 54. (The Browns could have been the team offering us this trade with the Jackson connection.) C Ethan Pocic went at 58.  G Dion Dawkins at 63.

Then you take a Kaaya or some other QB to develop.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-10-2017, 04:44 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: That's the thing. Before the draft...you use the 2nd on offensive line or get another good player.

Cam Robinson went at 34. Forest Lamp G went at 38. Kizer went at 54. (The Browns could have been the team offering us this trade with the Jackson connection.) C Ethan Pocic went at 58.  G Dion Dawkins at 63.

Then you take a Kaaya or some other QB to develop.

Now you're just making me sick Pistons....

[BengalD]

(08-10-2017, 04:36 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: A player who doesn't play is never worth more than a player who will play.

I'm pretty sure we're not allowed to use those words anymore. Lol


If Dalton gets hurt because of this crap OL, despite his great pre-snap reads and quick release, how would McCarron fare any better than Driskel behind it? Both would lead the team to a losing season, if not get hurt themselves. Then a hurt McCarron won't even get you a 2nd rounder.

The thing I take away from the discussion is - AJ pretty much won the Bengals a playoff game, it was lost by bone headed penalties. Driskel wouldn't have been close to playing at that level.

[*bfine32*]

(08-10-2017, 04:36 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: If Dalton gets hurt because of this crap OL, despite his great pre-snap reads and quick release, how would McCarron fare any better than Driskel behind it? Both would lead the team to a losing season, if not get hurt themselves. Then a hurt McCarron won't even get you a 2nd rounder.

You do not know this. AJ has a winning record as a starter in the regular season and got us closer to a playoff victory than we have ever been in the last 20 years.

Keeping AJ makes plenty sense if you want to win now.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(08-10-2017, 04:38 PM)Wyche Wrote: Leonard pretty well sums it up for me Xeno.  Besides, maybe we could turn that 2nd rounder into a baller on the oline.

Psh, who needs sunscreen to prevent sunburn when I have aloe to make sunburns I get a little less painful?

(08-10-2017, 04:39 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yeah...and believe me I really like Dalton and think he's light-years away from McCarron.

But...I wonder IF the Bengals feel the same way. The really expensive years of Daltons contract are coming up too and if they go to McCarron...they could likely save $4-6 million a year.

Really expensive years? $15.7m, $16.3m, $16.2m, $17.7m are his cap his for this year and the next three years. That is a STEAL today.

McCarron has this year and next year under team control, and then he'll need a new contract. Keep in mind MIKE GLENNON just got $15m/yr, Carr just got $25m/yr, Luck got $24.6m/yr. Kirk Cousins is making $24m this year.

In fact, there are currently 19 QBs making more yearly than Andy Dalton. That is a huge number when you figure Goff, Wentz, Winston, Bortles, Watson, Mariota, Petty/Hackenburg, Siemian/Lynch, and Prescott are all on their rookie deals still.

So 19 make more than Dalton, 9 are still on their rookie contracts. That means there are (by my count, could be off by one or two) only 3 starting QBs who aren't on a rookie contract and make less than Dalton. Tyrod Taylor, Mike Glennon, and Bryan Hoyer.

Meanwhile say McCarron starts in 2018, and he does well. You then have to shell out a $20m+/yr (of which there's currently 14) deal to him, which means any money you MIGHT save in 2018 would instantly be wiped away, and then you'd still have a lesser QB.

That's math and stats.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-10-2017, 04:47 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You do not know this. AJ has a winning record as a starter in the regular season and got us closer to a playoff victory than we have ever been in the last 20 years.

Keeping AJ makes plenty sense if you want to win now.

You're right, we don't know that.  That said, he took a lot of sacks behind what was a pretty good oline in '15.  It's fairly easy to speculate that behind this bunch, with the way he holds on to the ball back there, he'd take a crap ton of sacks.  Unless the line makes big strides from last year, anyone that isn't getting the ball out of their hands pretty damn quickly ain't gonna have much fun back there.  Think David Carr.......

[BengalD]

(08-10-2017, 04:57 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Psh, who needs sunscreen to prevent sunburn when I have aloe to make sunburns I get a little less painful?



Really expensive years? $15.7m, $16.3m, $16.2m, $17.7m are his cap his for this year and the next three years. That is a STEAL today.

McCarron has this year and next year under team control, and then he'll need a new contract. Keep in mind MIKE GLENNON just got $15m/yr, Carr just got $25m/yr, Luck got $24.6m/yr. Kirk Cousins is making $24m this year.

In fact, there are currently 19 QBs making more yearly than Andy Dalton. That is a huge number when you figure Goff, Wentz, Winston, Bortles, Watson, Mariota, Petty/Hackenburg, Siemian/Lynch, and Prescott are all on their rookie deals still.

So 19 make more than Dalton, 9 are still on their rookie contracts. That means there are (by my count, could be off by one or two) only 3 starting QBs who aren't on a rookie contract and make less than Dalton. Tyrod Taylor, Mike Glennon, and Bryan Hoyer.

Meanwhile say McCarron starts in 2018, and he does well. You then have to shell out a $20m+/yr (of which there's currently 14) deal to him, which means any money you MIGHT save in 2018 would instantly be wiped away, and then you'd still have a lesser QB.

That's math and stats.

The going rate is always going up (at least to date), so the analogy about glennon tells me AJ would be worth more then just on the inflation of the salary.  And if you didn't pay him, who do you pay that's better? I'll take. AJ all day over a player like glennon. I'll take AJ over Cousins for that matter.

[Murdock2420]

I hope this is a fake story, if it isn't someone in the Bengals front office needs to be beaten about the head with a bat for saying no. I don't care if it is before the draft after the draft, or five minutes from now. If someone offers you a 2nd round pick for your back-up QB you say "Yes".

The only way you don't say yes is if he is being groomed to take over for your current starter and in this situation, there is no reason to believe that at all.

McCarron at the end of the season leaves and the Bengals get a Comp pick...oh joy....a 4th round most likely and at the end of the round. Instead of getting a 2nd round pick that would be in the top 50 most likely.

This nonsense of, what happens if Andy goes down. Well...the truth is simple, if Dalton goes down for any length of time, be it with McCarron or without him, the team isn't going anywhere unless every other player steps up their game. The reason the team was in the playoff game with pitt after losing Dalton wasn't because of McCarron's play, he was a game manager, the rest of the team stepped up around him, until they didn't....

Keeping a guy for a "what if" scenario is planning for failure not building for success. All you have to do is look at New England, Brady gets hurt, Cassel looks good and the Pats cashed in on that netting a 2nd round pick for the guy after that season. Winners make those types of moves, losers are scared and can't make those types of moves, it's just like the game planning and adjustments.

[XenoMorph]

(08-10-2017, 05:11 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I hope this is a fake story, if it isn't someone in the Bengals front office needs to be beaten about the head with a bat for saying no. I don't care if it is before the draft after the draft, or five minutes from now. If someone offers you a 2nd round pick for your back-up QB you say "Yes".

The only way you don't say yes is if he is being groomed to take over for your current starter and in this situation, there is no reason to believe that at all.

McCarron at the end of the season leaves and the Bengals get a Comp pick...oh joy....a 4th round most likely and at the end of the round. Instead of getting a 2nd round pick that would be in the top 50 most likely.

This nonsense of, what happens if Andy goes down. Well...the truth is simple, if Dalton goes down for any length of time, be it with McCarron or without him, the team isn't going anywhere unless every other player steps up their game. The reason the team was in the playoff game with pitt after losing Dalton wasn't because of McCarron's play, he was a game manager, the rest of the team stepped up around him, until they didn't....

Keeping a guy for a "what if" scenario is planning for failure not building for success. All you have to do is look at New England, Brady gets hurt, Cassel looks good and the Pats cashed in on that netting a 2nd round pick for the guy after that season. Winners make those types of moves, losers are scared and can't make those types of moves, it's just like the game planning and adjustments.

They still don't know if he will be a RFA or not. as he missed his whole rookie season with injury.

[*bfine32*]

(08-10-2017, 05:04 PM)Wyche Wrote: You're right, we don't know that.  That said, he took a lot of sacks behind what was a pretty good oline in '15.  It's fairly easy to speculate that behind this bunch, with the way he holds on to the ball back there, he'd take a crap ton of sacks.  Unless the line makes big strides from last year, anyone that isn't getting the ball out of their hands pretty damn quickly ain't gonna have much fun back there.  Think David Carr.......

AJ took 4 sacks his very first game as a starter. He cleaned that up to only 2 his next game and 1 the following. He did get sacked 3 times in his first ever playoff game; however Andy got sacked 4 in his.

The point being anyone that just arbitrarily says the Bengals are stupid for not trading AJ for a 2nd may not know what the hell they are talking about. Why did New England hold on to Jimmy G? 

[Murdock2420]

(08-10-2017, 05:14 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: They still don't know if he will be a RFA or not. as he missed his whole rookie season with injury.

Even if he is a RFA, why keep him here when you can get something of greater value for him?

If he is a RFA then he is here this year and next and then he is gone for a 4th round Comp pick while the team is still carrying 3 QBs because they like Driskell. If he was the only back-up they kept, and he has another season after this, eh...maybe...maybe you keep him but with Driskell here it just makes no sense to keep him around when there is a pick that can be used at other positions of need. 

[BengalD]

(08-10-2017, 05:11 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I hope this is a fake story, if it isn't someone in the Bengals front office needs to be beaten about the head with a bat for saying no. I don't care if it is before the draft after the draft, or five minutes from now. If someone offers you a 2nd round pick for your back-up QB you say "Yes".

The only way you don't say yes is if he is being groomed to take over for your current starter and in this situation, there is no reason to believe that at all.

McCarron at the end of the season leaves and the Bengals get a Comp pick...oh joy....a 4th round most likely and at the end of the round. Instead of getting a 2nd round pick that would be in the top 50 most likely.

This nonsense of, what happens if Andy goes down. Well...the truth is simple, if Dalton goes down for any length of time, be it with McCarron or without him, the team isn't going anywhere unless every other player steps up their game. The reason the team was in the playoff game with pitt after losing Dalton wasn't because of McCarron's play, he was a game manager, the rest of the team stepped up around him, until they didn't....

Keeping a guy for a "what if" scenario is planning for failure not building for success. All you have to do is look at New England, Brady gets hurt, Cassel looks good and the Pats cashed in on that netting a 2nd round pick for the guy after that season. Winners make those types of moves, losers are scared and can't make those types of moves, it's just like the game planning and adjustments.

The patriots are coached by a something super natural. There must be some alien influence tthere as bellychick takes civilians and retired players off the street midway through the season and wins super bowls - so that's not even a fair comparison. Ugh - the fact the pats can do that just made myself sick!

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(08-10-2017, 04:46 PM)BengalD Wrote: The thing I take away from the discussion is - AJ pretty much won the Bengals a playoff game, it was lost by bone headed penalties. Driskel wouldn't have been close to playing at that level.

AJ didn't pretty much win shit in the playoffs. He was worse than nothing for the first 3 quarters against the 30th ranked pass defense, and the defense was beastly, hurt the opposing starting QB, and got turnovers.

AJ McCarron's first 3 quarters: 14/25 (56%), 116 yards (4.64 YPA), 0 TD/1 INT, 3 Sacks, 3 Fumbles.

Yup, that sure looks like the performance of a football messiah against the 30th ranked pass defense. The defense kept them in it, hurt Roethlisberger, forced a drive from the Steelers side of the field, which they scored on due to pass interference, did get a long FG drive, but then scored again because of a big defensive stop and an Adam Jones 24 yard punt return put them at the Steelers 45 to start.

Defense and special teams almost won the Bengals a playoff game. McCarron was shit. If McCarron had done ANYTHING against the 30th ranked pass defense for the first three quarters, the Bengals would have won that game in blowout fashion. Heck, even if he did nothing, but just didn't suck, they would have won that game in blowout fashion.

(08-10-2017, 04:47 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You do not know this. AJ has a winning record as a starter in the regular season and got us closer to a playoff victory than we have ever been in the last 20 years.

Keeping AJ makes plenty sense if you want to win now.

AJ had the best offensive talent this team has EVER had at once, and only beat the Blaine Gabbert 49ers and Ryan Mallett Ravens.

He also stood like the stone when he wasn't running directly into passrushers with happy feet, while playing in a significantly dumbed down offense, taking 15 sacks in less than 5 games, behind an OL that Dalton took 21 in a little over 12 games. McCarron would be murdered behind this OL.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(08-10-2017, 05:08 PM)BengalD Wrote: The going rate is always going up (at least to date), so the analogy about glennon tells me AJ would be worth more then just on the inflation of the salary.  And if you didn't pay him, who do you pay that's better? I'll take. AJ all day over a player like glennon. I'll take AJ over Cousins for that matter.

You just missed the entire point of my reply to their post. Who else do you pay that's better? Dalton, who you already have under contract at $16.5m/yr over the next 4 years. That was my point, cutting Dalton wouldn't save you money.

[Murdock2420]

(08-10-2017, 05:19 PM)BengalD Wrote: The patriots are coached by a something super natural. There must be some alien influence tthere as bellychick takes civilians and retired players off the street midway through the season and wins super bowls - so that's not even a fair comparison. Ugh - the fact the pats can do that just made myself sick!

They do it because of their system and the type of guys they sign off the street. They sign guys who will buy into the system and do their job and not try to be a one man team. A game manager at QB can win the Super Bowl if the rest of the team is doing their job. 

This team needs to just embrace that style. Stop being afraid of "what if" and just make moves that benefit the team. They play afraid against pitt and the more "elite" teams, instead of believing they are one of those elite teams. It all starts at the top and flows down into the team. If you want to be a winner and you want to be elite, then you have to act it and do what winners do, not worry about what might happen.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-10-2017, 05:15 PM)bfine32 Wrote: AJ took 4 sacks his very first game as a starter. He cleaned that up to only 2 his next game and 1 the following. He did get sacked 3 times in his first ever playoff game; however Andy got sacked 4 in his.

The point being anyone that just arbitrarily says the Bengals are stupid for not trading AJ for a 2nd may not know what the hell they are talking about. Why did New England hold on to Jimmy G? 

To answer that question would be more speculation.....but Tommy Terrific IS 40....how much longer can he go?  At that age, he could go down at any time, and the end draws nigh anyway.  Jimmy looked pretty good in relief, and maybe that is their plan going forward.  Only the Pats know for sure.

AJ got sacked against two of the better teams in the league quite frequently, as did Dalton in his early action.  After watching both play, it is my belief that McCarron would have taken at least 10-15 more sacks last season behind this line.  Dalton was sacked 7 times in week one alone, and has the second fastest release time in the league.  Again, purely speculation on my part, but using what I've seen from 14 and an admittedly short sample size from 5 as my basis.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-10-2017, 05:24 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: They do it because of their system and the type of guys they sign off the street. They sign guys who will buy into the system and do their job and not try to be a one man team. A game manager at QB can win the Super Bowl if the rest of the team is doing their job. 

This team needs to just embrace that style. Stop being afraid of "what if" and just make moves that benefit the team. They play afraid against pitt and the more "elite" teams, instead of believing they are one of those elite teams. It all starts at the top and flows down into the team. If you want to be a winner and you want to be elite, then you have to act it and do what winners do, not worry about what might happen.

So much truth.  Even Tom Brady said that when interviewing with Willie McGinnest the other day.  He pretty much said the defense carried him to the first SB and won it.

[Murdock2420]

(08-10-2017, 05:15 PM)bfine32 Wrote: AJ took 4 sacks his very first game as a starter. He cleaned that up to only 2 his next game and 1 the following. He did get sacked 3 times in his first ever playoff game; however Andy got sacked 4 in his.

The point being anyone that just arbitrarily says the Bengals are stupid for not trading AJ for a 2nd may not know what the hell they are talking about. Why did New England hold on to Jimmy G? 

(08-10-2017, 05:24 PM)Wyche Wrote: To answer that question would be more speculation.....but Tommy Terrific IS 40....how much longer can he go?  At that age, he could go down at any time, and the end draws nigh anyway.  Jimmy looked pretty good in relief, and maybe that is their plan going forward.  Only the Pats know for sure.

This is what I was saying is the one exception to not trading your back-up QB. Brady is nearing the end, even if he doesn't want to believe it, Father Time is undefeated and the Pats have found the guy they think will be the heir apparent. 

Does anyone here really believe that McCarron would do better under center here than Dalton or that Dalton is nearing the end and McCarron is being groomed to replace him? If that is your belief, okay so be it...I can see not wanting to trade him but this team is worse with McCarron under center than with Dalton.

[Earendil]

What if the OL gets Andy broken in half and he never plays again? I'm not saying I agree or disagree with this decision, but it's something to think about.

On the plus side, we wouldn't be arguing about Andy's ranking with pundits anymore.