Bengals Turned Down 2nd Rounder

[Murdock2420]

(08-10-2017, 08:23 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I have seen no one state this team would be better off with AJ in this or any recent thread.

If AJM=Driskall then why hasn't anyone offered us a 2nd for Driskall?

It has been shown (not speculated) that when Andy went down AJM kept this team competitive. His only regular season loss was in overtime to the eventual SB champs. And our playoff game was the most competitive since Sam Wyche was HC.

AJM's lawyers wants aside if AJM is considered a restricted FA after this year we can tag him with a 1st or 2nd and get what is currently offered or better and still have the use of his services for this year.

The very folks that are saying this organization is stupid for not pulling the trigger, would be the same ones saying this organization is stupid id AJM went elsewhere, did a serviceable job as a starter, the Bengals are competitive, Andy goes down, and we trot out Jeff Driskall.

I would not be saying this team was stupid if McCarron goes elsewhere via trade and becomes an All-Pro.

The team is set on Dalton as the starter, so pulling the trigger on a high draft pick for a back-up is a no brainer.

As for Driskel, why haven't teams come offering for him, that's easy...he has no game film. However, the coaches saw enough in him to claim him on waivers and waste a spot on the 53 man roster all year for him. If he is good enough to be on the 53...then McCarron can be dealt. 

As for the lawyers, they want him to be an Unrestricted Free Agent at the end of the year, due to the first year being spent on the NFI part time, the Bengals want him to be a Restricted Free Agent where they can place the tender on him. No real reason to believe the NFI will keep that first season from counting and he'll be gone at season's end....for nothing. 

If Dalton goes down, it would not matter if it was Driskel or McCarron coming in. The team will scale back the playbook and just like when McCarron was in there, everyone else will have to play at a much higher level. It's why Trent Dilfer has a Super Bowl ring, the team around him, was amazing and he didn't make many mistakes. 

I just don't understand planning for failure vs planning to win. Keeping McCarron is planning for Dalton to be hurt (which he isn't often at all.) and that is planning for failure.

[Pat5775]

(08-10-2017, 08:23 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I have seen no one state this team would be better off with AJ in this or any recent thread.

If AJM=Driskall then why hasn't anyone offered us a 2nd for Driskall?

It has been shown (not speculated) that when Andy went down AJM kept this team competitive. His only regular season loss was in overtime to the eventual SB champs. And our playoff game was the most competitive since Sam Wyche was HC.

AJM's lawyers wants aside if AJM is considered a restricted FA after this year we can tag him with a 1st or 2nd and get what is currently offered or better and still have the use of his services for this year.

The very folks that are saying this organization is stupid for not pulling the trigger, would be the same ones saying this organization is stupid id AJM went elsewhere, did a serviceable job as a starter, the Bengals are competitive, Andy goes down, and we trot out Jeff Driskall.

Um... No... No I wouldn't 

[*jason*]

(08-10-2017, 04:23 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: Nah  McCarron is worth more as a backup than a crap shot 2nd rounder next year...  Especially with OL not looking great yet.

If someone wants McCarron they can pay the asking price.   if they don't want to do that they don't want McCarron.


But if they are naming teams its probly more fake news.

This... Print names, or it didn't happen. The dumbass that made that offer should be fired if it is true.

[Whatever]

(08-10-2017, 08:43 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I would not be saying this team was stupid if McCarron goes elsewhere via trade and becomes an All-Pro.

The team is set on Dalton as the starter, so pulling the trigger on a high draft pick for a back-up is a no brainer.

As for Driskel, why haven't teams come offering for him, that's easy...he has no game film. However, the coaches saw enough in him to claim him on waivers and waste a spot on the 53 man roster all year for him. If he is good enough to be on the 53...then McCarron can be dealt. 

As for the lawyers, they want him to be an Unrestricted Free Agent at the end of the year, due to the first year being spent on the NFI part time, the Bengals want him to be a Restricted Free Agent where they can place the tender on him. No real reason to believe the NFI will keep that first season from counting and he'll be gone at season's end....for nothing. 

If Dalton goes down, it would not matter if it was Driskel or McCarron coming in. The team will scale back the playbook and just like when McCarron was in there, everyone else will have to play at a much higher level. It's why Trent Dilfer has a Super Bowl ring, the team around him, was amazing and he didn't make many mistakes. 

I just don't understand planning for failure vs planning to win. Keeping McCarron is planning for Dalton to be hurt (which he isn't often at all.) and that is planning for failure.

I really don't get this philosophy.  Why sign backups and draft depth players, then?  That's just planning to fail.  By this logic, every team should just roll with a rookie UDFA QB every year because the season is over once the starter goes down.  Of course, the Pats won a SB with a backup QB named Brady, but whatever.  I guess the Texans didn't get the memo when they beat us with their 3rd stringer a few years back.

I personally believe McCarron is a game manager, but that's still worth a lot more than a 2nd in today's NFL. There's a reason why teams make ridiculous draft day trades for the chance to draft a top prospect and back the Brinks truck up to the doors of guys like Osweiler and Glennon.  If I buy a new car, I'm not just going to sell the old one for half of it's blue book value just because the only reason I'm going to drive it is my new one's in the shop.  

To this point, McCarron has proven to be at least good enough to beat bad teams.  With our schedule this year, we play a lot of bad teams.  If Andy goes down for a lengthy period, I do think McCarron can keep us in the playoff hunt.  With Driskel, the season is probably over.  

The other big part of this equation is that Marvin is in a contract year. With his job on the line,he's going to hang his fist on the table to keep the backup QB he knows he can win with, and unless someone blows Mike away with a deal, it's not going to happen. The positive here is, there's no excuses for Lewis.  

McCarron really doesn't have a leg to stand on in his case.  A player has to be on a full pay roster list for at least 6 games to accrue a season towards FA.  He was on the active roster for three games his rookie year, and the NFI the rest of the year.  The NFI is not a full pay list.  For a player on the NFI, the team literally gets to choose how much they pay the player, from $0.00 all the way up to their normal salary.  If McCarron's argument is that the Bengals chose to pay him his full salary while he was on the NFI, so he should accrue a season, he's going to get massive resistance from the NFLPA.  Even if he somehow wins, the owners are going to dick over every player that goes on the NFI to ensure they hold their rights another year.

[MaineBengal]

I'd turn down a 2nd for AJ McC also. Two reasons.

1. Our offensive line is.... uncertain. Backup QB could be essential this year.

2. If/when AJ McC leaves as a FA and signs a big contract elsewhere (he's a QB after all), we'll get a comp pick, possibly as high as a 3rd rounder. So to offer a 2nd rounder instead is really just a one, maybe two round upgrade. Not enough value.

[THE PISTONS]

Game managers do good on extremely talented offenses. On teams that lack talent...they won't move the needle enough to make the team go to the next level.

That's the conundrum for McCarron. The teams that need QB's are mainly really bad like the Browns, Jets, etc. There are possibly 1 or 2 exceptions. Maybe a team like the Cardinals will want him.

Bad teams like Chicago generally offer these above average QB's big contracts and they go in and fail because they're just not elite enough to make everyone around them better.

McCarron's best bet to become a star is here...but he won't beat Dalton out.

[Murdock2420]

(08-10-2017, 10:18 PM)Whatever Wrote: I really don't get this philosophy.  Why sign backups and draft depth players, then?  That's just planning to fail.  By this logic, every team should just roll with a rookie UDFA QB every year because the season is over once the starter goes down.  Of course, the Pats won a SB with a backup QB named Brady, but whatever.  I guess the Texans didn't get the memo when they beat us with their 3rd stringer a few years back.

I personally believe McCarron is a game manager, but that's still worth a lot more than a 2nd in today's NFL. There's a reason why teams make ridiculous draft day trades for the chance to draft a top prospect and back the Brinks truck up to the doors of guys like Osweiler and Glennon.  If I buy a new car, I'm not just going to sell the old one for half of it's blue book value just because the only reason I'm going to drive it is my new one's in the shop.  

To this point, McCarron has proven to be at least good enough to beat bad teams.  With our schedule this year, we play a lot of bad teams.  If Andy goes down for a lengthy period, I do think McCarron can keep us in the playoff hunt.  With Driskel, the season is probably over.  

The other big part of this equation is that Marvin is in a contract year. With his job on the line,he's going to hang his fist on the table to keep the backup QB he knows he can win with, and unless someone blows Mike away with a deal, it's not going to happen. The positive here is, there's no excuses for Lewis.  

McCarron really doesn't have a leg to stand on in his case.  A player has to be on a full pay roster list for at least 6 games to accrue a season towards FA.  He was on the active roster for three games his rookie year, and the NFI the rest of the year.  The NFI is not a full pay list.  For a player on the NFI, the team literally gets to choose how much they pay the player, from $0.00 all the way up to their normal salary.  If McCarron's argument is that the Bengals chose to pay him his full salary while he was on the NFI, so he should accrue a season, he's going to get massive resistance from the NFLPA.  Even if he somehow wins, the owners are going to dick over every player that goes on the NFI to ensure they hold their rights another year.

That is my point.

It has nothing to do with not having back-ups and having depth but to turn down a 2nd round pick because you are afraid Dalton will go down??? Depth at WR, OL, LB, every team does that, but look around the league at back-ups for QBs. Everyone has a game manager at #2, some guy that can come in and run the basic offense and hopefully not turn the ball over.

With the exception of New England, who is grooming their #2 to take over for Brady sooner rather then later, I can't think of any other team that turns down a 2nd round pick for their back-up QB. And, game managing QBs can be had via free agency. Christian Ponder is sitting on a boat fishing somewhere, hell RG3 is sitting around looking for a gig, Kaep is unsigned, and there will be more guys cut coming up as camp moves forward. All 3 of those guys could fill in and game manage as well as McCarron. If someone wants to overpay for him with a 2nd round pick...you have to make the move.

[Murdock2420]

(08-10-2017, 10:33 PM)MaineBengal Wrote: I'd turn down a 2nd for AJ McC also. Two reasons.

1. Our offensive line is.... uncertain. Backup QB could be essential this year.

2. If/when AJ McC leaves as a FA and signs a big contract elsewhere (he's a QB after all), we'll get a comp pick, possibly as high as a 3rd rounder. So to offer a 2nd rounder instead is really just a one, maybe two round upgrade. Not enough value.

The 3rd round comp pick comes at the end of round 3. The value in an early 2nd round pick vs an end of round three pick is pretty big. Pick #34/35 from Cleveland vs pick #97 to #107

[THE PISTONS]

I think that Driskel being really bad factors in. Get rid of McCarron and you have Driskel. That's a massive drop off.

[THE PISTONS]

From what I've read...the CBA should make McCarron a Bengal for 2 years. He shouldn't get his 1st year credited as a season.

So there's that.

[MaineBengal]

(08-10-2017, 10:41 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: The 3rd round comp pick comes at the end of round 3. The value in an early 2nd round pick vs an end of round three pick is pretty big. Pick #34/35 from Cleveland vs pick #97 to #107

I hear you, but a) no guarantee it will be an early 2nd rounder, and b) lots of good 3rd rounders in the league. This past draft is a great example, I remember a lot of analysts talking about how there weren't big differences from pick #20 to pick #100. Not enough value in that jump to potentially leave the QB position in Driskel's hands.

So basically we're talking about jumping up 30-60 spots, in exchange for 1, maybe 2 years of AJ McC's services.

[THE PISTONS]

(08-10-2017, 10:45 PM)MaineBengal Wrote: I hear you, but a) no guarantee it will be an early 2nd rounder, and b) lots of good 3rd rounders in the league. This past draft is a great example, I remember a lot of analysts talking about how there weren't big differences from pick #20 to pick #100. Not enough value in that jump to potentially leave the QB position in Driskel's hands.

Analysts also put the 1st Round talent label on about 60 guys.

But, I agree. The time to do this trade would have been before the draft so they could draft a replacement.

And the Bengals wouldn't trade a QB making $700k and sign a free agent like Kaepernick for $4 million. 

[Whatever]

(08-10-2017, 10:37 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: That is my point.

It has nothing to do with not having back-ups and having depth but to turn down a 2nd round pick because you are afraid Dalton will go down??? Depth at WR, OL, LB, every team does that, but look around the league at back-ups for QBs. Everyone has a game manager at #2, some guy that can come in and run the basic offense and hopefully not turn the ball over.

With the exception of New England, who is grooming their #2 to take over for Brady sooner rather then later, I can't think of any other team that turns down a 2nd round pick for their back-up QB. And, game managing QBs can be had via free agency. Christian Ponder is sitting on a boat fishing somewhere, hell RG3 is sitting around looking for a gig, Kaep is unsigned, and there will be more guys cut coming up as camp moves forward. All 3 of those guys could fill in and game manage as well as McCarron. If someone wants to overpay for him with a 2nd round pick...you have to make the move.

That's because most teams don't have a backup QB with even game manager starter potential.  You think you're going to get one of the Chiefs top 2 QB's for a 2nd?

Ponder has a 75.9 career QBR to McCarron's 97.1.  There's a large discrepancy, there.  RGIII has a toxic locker room rep and a long injury history.  Kaepernick nobody will touch because of all the bad pr that comes along with him.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(08-10-2017, 10:48 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Analysts also put the 1st Round talent label on about 60 guys.

But, I agree. The time to do this trade would have been before the draft so they could draft a replacement.

And the Bengals wouldn't trade a QB making $700k and sign a free agent like Kaepernick for $4 million. 

Ponder signed with the 49ers last year for $800k. He's as backup-y as they come and could hold you over for 1-2 games if Dalton gets a concussion.

(If Dalton has a long term injury, it doesn't matter if it's McCarron or Ponder, season's over.)

I would take Ponder and a 2nd rounder over McCarron, and you only pay $100k more. Easy choice.

[TKUHL]

(08-10-2017, 11:02 PM)Whatever Wrote: That's because most teams don't have a backup QB with even game manager starter potential.  You think you're going to get one of the Chiefs top 2 QB's for a 2nd?

Ponder has a 75.9 career QBR to McCarron's 97.1.  There's a large discrepancy, there.  RGIII has a toxic locker room rep and a long injury history.  Kaepernick nobody will touch because of all the bad pr that comes along with him.

This.

[BenZoo2]

(08-10-2017, 10:48 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Analysts also put the 1st Round talent label on about 60 guys.

But, I agree. The time to do this trade would have been before the draft so they could draft a replacement.

And the Bengals wouldn't trade a QB making $700k and sign a free agent like Kaepernick for $4 million. 

Don't be so sure. I don't think it would take 4 mil to sign kap. He needs to find a roster this year or risk sitting out an entire year. Makes getting on a roster next year more difficult.

(08-10-2017, 11:02 PM)Whatever Wrote: That's because most teams don't have a backup QB with even game manager starter potential.  You think you're going to get one of the Chiefs top 2 QB's for a 2nd?

Ponder has a 75.9 career QBR to McCarron's 97.1.  There's a large discrepancy, there.  RGIII has a toxic locker room rep and a long injury history.  Kaepernick nobody will touch because of all the bad pr that comes along with him.

The bengals have shown they could care less about public opinion. Pac man is still here. Mixon was drafted. If Mikey thinks he can get a good player cheap he does it.

With 12 picks last year it would have been hard justifying losing ajm for another pick. I doubt they'd take a 2nd for him next year. I suspect they slap at least a 2nd round tender on him.

[TKUHL]

I don't see what the big deal is. Brown said he wants a first round pick for AJ, so until rumors come out that they passed on a 1st round pick there's no reason to be shocked at all.

[*Go Cards*]

(08-10-2017, 08:23 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I have seen no one state this team would be better off with AJ in this or any recent thread.

If AJM=Driskall then why hasn't anyone offered us a 2nd for Driskall?

It has been shown (not speculated) that when Andy went down AJM kept this team competitive. His only regular season loss was in overtime to the eventual SB champs. And our playoff game was the most competitive since Sam Wyche was HC.

AJM's lawyers wants aside if AJM is considered a restricted FA after this year we can tag him with a 1st or 2nd and get what is currently offered or better and still have the use of his services for this year.

The very folks that are saying this organization is stupid for not pulling the trigger, would be the same ones saying this organization is stupid id AJM went elsewhere, did a serviceable job as a starter, the Bengals are competitive, Andy goes down, and we trot out Jeff Driskall.

Would not care one bit if AJM did good elsewhere if he were traded at all. 

He is a back up QB in the eyes of the Bengals coaches. He has no future here as anything else unless Dalton gets seriously hurt. 

It is screwing him by not doing so if he is that good. Believe this AJM fans, if truth were told he wants to be traded. 

He wants to start and that is not happening here soon. Dalton is nowhere near retiring. 

But hey if he that good and is our future ?  Then trade Dalton, he would bring more anyway. 

Yet the coaches and most fans know he is not. Or he would be starting. 

Would argue the other but Murdock has already covered those bases. Do not know enough about Driskell but he made roster. Marvin does not usually carry 3 QB's so they see something in him. 

Believe a second is what he is worth, but somehow hope Mikey wins and gets his 1st. 

[TKUHL]

(08-10-2017, 08:23 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I have seen no one state this team would be better off with AJ in this or any recent thread.

If AJM=Driskall then why hasn't anyone offered us a 2nd for Driskall?

It has been shown (not speculated) that when Andy went down AJM kept this team competitive. His only regular season loss was in overtime to the eventual SB champs. And our playoff game was the most competitive since Sam Wyche was HC.

AJM's lawyers wants aside if AJM is considered a restricted FA after this year we can tag him with a 1st or 2nd and get what is currently offered or better and still have the use of his services for this year.

The very folks that are saying this organization is stupid for not pulling the trigger, would be the same ones saying this organization is stupid id AJM went elsewhere, did a serviceable job as a starter, the Bengals are competitive, Andy goes down, and we trot out Jeff Driskall.

See my post page 1.    In all honestly AJ is more valuable to this team right now than a 2nd round pick.

[grampahol]

There's nothing guaranteed about a 2nd round pick that means much more than having a very solid backup QB that knows our system and playbook.
You know pretty much what we have in McCarron at this point whereas a 2nd round pick? I wouldn't do it unless he's a very high 2nd rounder and there's a specific player we absolutely need and can get.  Otherwise you're just letting go of a known player for an unknown generic 2nd round pick,  period.