The Myth of Having to Go Into a Season With Cap Space

[Derrick]

(08-18-2017, 09:34 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The biggest thing the rookie wage scale did was make it so the Bengals didn't have to negotiate contracts with rookies...thus ending holdouts. Smith was a long holdout. Justin Smith. Andre Smith. I'm sure there were others.

Rookies need to be in camp on time.

I hope you're right on the comparison to Atlanta.

What about the offensive line comparison?

[BenZoo2]

(08-18-2017, 09:54 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote:  Hindsight...but if you don't think Guard is a premium position in the NFL and you know you won't pay a guy as a free agent...why draft him in the 1st Round?

Also, the Bengals have somewhere near $18 million in cap space now - instead of paying a guy like Andre Smith over $3 million a year who has NEVER played Guard...why not sign an actual good Guard like Ronald Leary?

Jim - Have you heard anything on Eifert or Burfict extensions? Or even talks?

Because with the rookie wage scale as it is now you get that 5th year.  I'd rather have 5 years of a good player and the comp pick than to totally write off a position because I won't re-sign that player.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(08-18-2017, 02:38 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: I'm not sure why you're implying I'm angry or depressed about a sports team not winning. I'm simply stating facts. If that bothers you, I'm not sure what to tell you. But do me a favor and not assume something I'm not.
But it's extremely valid if you really take into consideration what happened then. And what's happened (or not happened) since then. I'll give you the respect to form your own conclusions and that's your provocative.

This wasn't meant to assess your state of mind, or mood, for that matter.  You railed against the "Bengals Brass" as you called them, questioning if we should "give them a pass" for "drafting shitty players", and I tried to emphasize that it wasn't just the management and that the players and coaches should also share the blame.  

One guy, Jeff Blake, pulled out a minor version of a Kurt Warner in the mid-90s and made the team fun to watch and had, for a brief moment, a very explosive offense.  Sure, it didn't last, but they gave him the opportunity to lead the team over a former first overall pick.  That took guts.

It was a "dark era" for that decade overall with that brief glimmer of light in Blake, but I laid out on another post the bad luck of their draft picks and how, before the rookie wage scale, they were crippled by those contracts.

Your last line, I think, was meant to state "that's your prerogative".  And you are absolutely correct.  I wasn't trying to change your mind or influence people on this board, but just trying to provide a little perspective of what happened to those teams before the rookie wage scale.  

The bottom line is they haven't won a playoff game since 1990, and no matter how close they were in 2015 with a backup QB, or the fact that they even made the playoffs with a rookie QB that no one thought would win a game, will change that mindset of so many fans.  It is constantly thrown in their faces.  I just prefer to look forward with optimism and enjoy what I believe is a very bright future.  

[Luvnit2]

(08-18-2017, 04:05 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I agree it happens other places Synric...but it's bad no matter how you slice it.

Think of the poor state healthcare and other programs are in. That money could be invested and used for other things.

$900 million of tax dollars. 0 playoff wins. That's a TERRIBLE return on investment!

It is if you don't understand business and ignore every benefit.
1. City gets city tax revenue from every player and paid employee from the Bengals.
2. City gets tax revenue from every opposing player, coach and employee who plays a game at PBS.
3. City gets tax revenue from every business (additional business they would not get if Bengals left the city)
4. City gets revenue from parking and concessions.

My point is this, remove the emotion and the city and county made a deal to keep tax revenue short and long term here by investing money. The alternative was to lose the team as the Chargers and Rams just did which is tax revenue that will never be recaptured.

Playoff wins is an emotional argument and has little to do with the investment aspect. and doe not hold water. The team draws well because they have been competitive the past 12 years or so. I understand people want to see Mike Brown is cheap, but in reality other than no practice field, that argument is lacking any teeth. If he is so cheap answer this question, why doesn't he take his Dad's name off of the stadium to receive millions yearly in revenue? He would literally have to do nothing other than remove Paul Brown's name from the stadium and let a huge company buy the rights.

[J24]

I don't think the problem is with how much we spend but with what we spend it on. For example we drafted Hunt and Clarke but yet we still signed MJ for 5 million. So basically we used two valuable draft slots and 5 million dollars of cap space on the same exact players but yet we didn't use any significant resources on players that could of complemented them. We sign Vrey and Minter but yet we have two third round picks at LB that have shown they can play but yet we don't play them.

[Circleville Guy]

My bigger gripe is how they spend that money. They seem to keep ageing vets for too long. They will pay that ageing vet that is no longer productive 3-6 mil a year and won't cut two of them to sign one productive player for say 9 mil. They could have franchised Whit during this Oline transition, that's one of the reasons that the tag is there. Keeping players because you like their kid may be a bad management idea too.... Just saying.. I wonder how many other players or coaches family members MB likes? There are so many obstacles that the team has to overcome that other teams don't. Players that have played for other organizations have to see this pretty plainly.

[*Synric*]

(08-19-2017, 04:21 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: My bigger gripe is how they spend that money. They seem to keep ageing vets for too long. They will pay that ageing vet that is no longer productive 3-6 mil a year and won't cut two of them to sign one productive player for say 9 mil. They could have franchised Whit during this Oline transition, that's one of the reasons that the tag is there. Keeping players because you like their kid may be a bad management idea too.... Just saying.. I wonder how many other players or coaches family members MB likes? There are so many obstacles that the team has to overcome that other teams don't. Players that have played for other organizations have to see this pretty plainly.

Franchise Tag Whit at over 14mil?

[*ochocincos*]

(08-18-2017, 08:28 PM)jowczarski Wrote: @ochocincos
Personnel moves/decisions can be debated in every city. But the fact is you can’t sign everyone. They’ve retained / extended the best players they’ve had since what, 2011? (And Whit is not really a good example of someone they didn’t want to retain. Dude spent a decade here with multiple extensions.)  If you knock them for not keeping a second or third receiver, then do they get extra credit for locking up Atkins and Dunlap, a HOF-track DT and a Pro Bowl pass rusher? There is a cap and 53 guys – and Jones and Sanu got over $72.5 million. I mean, you’re going to pay three wide receivers a total of $145 million over the length of their deals? It’s just not feasible. And the Bengals did match Detroit’s offer – Marvin just chose to leave to be a No. 1. That was his right.

I can’t argue with being more flexible in free agency or changing that thinking. As for the most-drafted players on a roster thing – but the Patriots and Packers and Steelers consistently rank in the top third of the league, along with the Bengals, in number of homegrown players on rosters. There are many ways to roster build, but the way the math works is you need starters playing four years on a rookie contract to help pay for stars elsewhere.

I’ll agree on scouting. And think about it – the staff has cycled. They’ve had three offensive coordinators and defensive coordinators since 2013. New position coaches came in in 2014 on defense with Matt Burke and Vance Joseph, and entire positional grouping on defense changed before 2016. I think you’re pointing more to the head coach?

Thanks for the response, Jim.

My issue with the extensions of certain players vs having others walk is guys like Peko and Maualuga in the past for IMO (much) more than they were worth all for the sake of familiarity and comfortability. Same for bringing back Andre Smith, who was coming off injury, past his prime, and playing a position he hasn't attempted to play since high school IIRC? And bringing back guys like Pat Sims and Brandon Thompson. We know what they are...role players. Many of us fans feel that the team rarely, if ever, really tries to go get that one big impactful player to really ascend to the next level (e.g. Peyton Manning to Denver). But yes, I do credit the Bengals for locking up players like AJ Green, Dalton, Dunlap, Atkins, etc. Just think they could have done better.

I get the Packers and Steelers process of homegrown players. However, it seems like the Steelers and Packers have hit on more of their draft picks compared to the Bengals, and that's led them to their overall better success. And they are also willing to let certain players go but they seem to have a nice up-and-comer ready to take his spot immediately after, which helps them. And both organizations also seem to start their younger players sooner than the Bengals do, which gets more use out of their rookie contracts.

In regards to staff cycling, I wasn't actually pointing more to Marvin. I was kind of meaning some of the longtime position coaches who have/had been here for years. Paul Alexander is the first that comes to mind. I also think about Jim Anderson, who many wanted gone at least a couple years before he actually retired in 2013. Jay Hayes would likely still be here if he didn't choose to go to TB. While Kevin Coyle was nice, if he hadn't left to Miami the Bengals wouldn't have had Vance Joseph, who I would argue improved the secondary from good to great. Obviously I know that Joseph would have left for a HC or DC position anyway, but I think it's pretty obvious that the Bengals should probably consider letting go of some of their position coaches more often if things get worse or stay stagnant. Most seem to only leave when they choose to do so.

The Bengals organization appears to put a great value on familiarity and while that's helped them avoid being one of the worst teams in the league again, I feel it's also held them back from taking that next step. Sometimes if you wanna get to the top, you have to be willing to take that next step and not be afraid of falling down.

[Hammerstripes]

The problem with the Bengals is definitely not the way they handle the cap. We have had just as good of a roster as any team in the league a few years and haven't managed to win in the playoffs. That's not a cap issue, it's not a personnel issue. It's a coaching/player issue.

There was no reason to lose to the Chargers at home a few years ago. The Steelers game was a win EVEN with a backup QB, yet they blew it.

I have no issue not spending big money on outside free agents. They usually come at a HUGE premium. Guys are getting twice as much as they deserve with the new system,

[THE PISTONS]

(08-19-2017, 07:35 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: The problem with the Bengals is definitely not the way they handle the cap.  We have had just as good of a roster as any team in the league a few years and haven't managed to win in the playoffs.  That's not a cap issue, it's not a personnel issue.  It's a coaching/player issue.

There was no reason to lose to the Chargers at home a few years ago.  The Steelers game was a win EVEN with a backup QB, yet they blew it.

I have no issue not spending big money on outside free agents.  They usually come at a HUGE premium.  Guys are getting twice as much as they deserve with the new system,

And who hires the coaches? Yeah...largely the same management team that hasn't won a playoff in 26+ years.

There are some outside free agents that are value. I'm talking 2nd and 3rd tier guys.

And, it's not like our own free agents are taking hometown discounts to stay. The salary cap is exploding every year and players want paid.

[THE PISTONS]

(08-18-2017, 08:28 PM)jowczarski Wrote: @ochocincos
Personnel moves/decisions can be debated in every city. But the fact is you can’t sign everyone. They’ve retained / extended the best players they’ve had since what, 2011? (And Whit is not really a good example of someone they didn’t want to retain. Dude spent a decade here with multiple extensions.)  If you knock them for not keeping a second or third receiver, then do they get extra credit for locking up Atkins and Dunlap, a HOF-track DT and a Pro Bowl pass rusher? There is a cap and 53 guys – and Jones and Sanu got over $72.5 million. I mean, you’re going to pay three wide receivers a total of $145 million over the length of their deals? It’s just not feasible. And the Bengals did match Detroit’s offer – Marvin just chose to leave to be a No. 1. That was his right.

I can’t argue with being more flexible in free agency or changing that thinking. As for the most-drafted players on a roster thing – but the Patriots and Packers and Steelers consistently rank in the top third of the league, along with the Bengals, in number of homegrown players on rosters. There are many ways to roster build, but the way the math works is you need starters playing four years on a rookie contract to help pay for stars elsewhere.

I’ll agree on scouting. And think about it – the staff has cycled. They’ve had three offensive coordinators and defensive coordinators since 2013. New position coaches came in in 2014 on defense with Matt Burke and Vance Joseph, and entire positional grouping on defense changed before 2016. I think you’re pointing more to the head coach?

@ThePistons – great point on the teams that have been to the Super Bowl since ’88. It’s been too long at this point, regardless of the positives that have happened since 2003.

@bambino5130 - Take Zeitler for example, they could have locked him up, when the Steelers chose to sign DeCastro for a similar deal at about 5 years and 10 million per

They could not have. I knew that situation very, very well – Zeitler was going to be the highest paid guard in football. The Bengals don’t believe guard is a $10M per year position. Frankly, neither do I. Trust me when I say Zeitler didn’t feel disrespected. He gambled on himself and it paid off.

Again, Whitworth doesn’t count IMO. At some point you gotta cut the cord and the Rams had to pay him that. He was paid handsomely over many years with many extensions. Reggie Nelson? Old and same kinda deal as Whit. You had Shawn William sitting there. Marvin Jones’ deal was matched, to the dollar, but he chose to go to Detroit.  He also gambled on himself. Would you have paid Marvin $40 million after missing all of 2014 with a foot injury? No one would have. Didn't hear a peep from anyone saying they should extend him in my first camp in '15. And he wasn't feeling disrespected, either. Hindsight is always 20-20.

Jim - I get that the Bengals don't want to pay a Guard $10 million a year...but with the explosion of the salary cap, $10 million this year is like $7.5 million in 2012. The salary cap in 2012 was $120.6 million and its $167 million this year.

That's what people don't get when they say huge contracts getting dished out. The NFL salary cap is growing at an exponential rate.

Inflation in the NFL is something that people have no concept of.

[Circleville Guy]

(08-19-2017, 04:46 PM)Synric Wrote: Franchise Tag Whit at over 14mil?

Absolutely! It's forone year to transition basically the whole line.

[*Synric*]

(08-20-2017, 02:26 AM)Circleville Guy Wrote: Absolutely! It's forone year to transition basically the whole line.

Your suggestion was to cut vets? I'm guessing MJ Pacman Vinny Rey.... Sign 1 guy for 9 million and then franchise tag Whitworth for 14million. 

All before they even draft....No bad idea bad idea.

[bambino5130]

(08-18-2017, 08:28 PM)jowczarski Wrote: @bambino5130 - Take Zeitler for example, they could have locked him up, when the Steelers chose to sign DeCastro for a similar deal at about 5 years and 10 million per

@jowczarski- They could not have. I knew that situation very, very well – Zeitler was going to be the highest paid guard in football. The Bengals don’t believe guard is a $10M per year position. Frankly, neither do I. Trust me when I say Zeitler didn’t feel disrespected. He gambled on himself and it paid off.

Again, Whitworth doesn’t count IMO. At some point you gotta cut the cord and the Rams had to pay him that. He was paid handsomely over many years with many extensions. Reggie Nelson? Old and same kinda deal as Whit. You had Shawn William sitting there. Marvin Jones’ deal was matched, to the dollar, but he [i]chose to go to Detroit. He also gambled on himself. Would you have paid Marvin $40 million after missing all of 2014 with a foot injury? No one would have. Didn't hear a peep from anyone saying they should extend him in my first camp in '15. And he wasn't feeling disrespected, either. Hindsight is always 20-20.[/i]

You don't think a guard is worth 10 million a year, I get that. Yet they turn around & give that money to Dre Kirkpatrick? You think he is worth that money with 2 other 1st round corners sitting on the bench? I also get not resigning Whit, even if you thinks two year deal at say 12 million is too much. So the plan of letting the #2 LT & say #6 G in the league walk out the door & you bring back in Andre Smith, ignore the Oline in the draft, & hope for the best? This game is won & lost on that line, & in the offseason the Bengals went from one of the best lines in football to one of the worst which could have been avoided if the FO was a little more proactive in 2016.

So here we are again 18.6 million left on the cap & neither Burfict nor Eiffert is resigned. When you year after year let your top Free Agents leave, remind me of the message that's sends to players & fans?

Also, they could have resigned Reggie Nelson for pennies on the dollar. Yes hindsight is 20/20, yet Old Reggie is still balling in Oakland, & Williams just got carted off the field.

[THE PISTONS]

(08-20-2017, 02:31 AM)Synric Wrote: Your suggestion was to cut vets? I'm guessing MJ Pacman Vinny Rey.... Sign 1 guy for 9 million and then franchise tag Whitworth for 14million. 

All before they even draft....No bad idea bad idea.

Why is It a bad idea. They have $18.6 million in cap space now.

This season looks like the offensive line is going to be what kills the season. Too much pressure on Dalton. They are doing a lot of 3 step drops instead of 5. We have all these fast WR's and can't let them use their speed with 5 step drops because of the line.

Then, the defense looks like a dominant D in practice because they're practicing against a bad line. Then, they go against a good one and aren't prepared.

And you think franchising Whitworth or Zeitler and signing a guy like Leary to be a dominant Guard is a bad idea?

Basically...that's like saying 'Cap Space is more valuable to me than competing.'

[muskiesfan]

I think the Bengals have done a decent job of keeping their own. I would have liked to have kept Marvin Jones, but Detroit was a chance for him to be THE guy. Sanu got seriously overpaid by the Falcons. I like the guy, but that was ridiculous money.

Whitworth hurt because they did try to keep him, but he mentioned a change of scenery. To me, that speaks volumes about our team. When one of your legends and leaders finally decides he needs to skip town for a change of scenery, something's not right.

Zeitler also got stupid money, but the team never made an attempt to keep him, ever. If you don't value the position, why spend a 1st round pick to let them walk in a few years? No matter how you slice it, that 1st round pick is worth a helluva lot more than the compensatory pick Brown covets when they leave.

Brown's free agency approach is a joke. We obviously had the money this year that we could have kept Whitworth or signed a free agent upgrade. Instead, we stayed par for the course and signed former players and cheap players. Don't get me wrong, I like the Minter signing, but we could have added real help on the OLine.

Everyone talks about the Pats, Steelers, Packers, and whoever else, but those teams have shown at times they're willing to go all in. For all the talk of the Steelers staying in house, they sure as hell made a serious play for DreK this year. How many times do the Pats trade for marquee players to bolster their team? People like to defend the Bengals approach, but Mike Brown half asses it. We are nowhere near the level of the elite teams in the NFL in terms of how their teams are run.

[THE PISTONS]

(08-20-2017, 10:27 AM)muskiesfan Wrote: I think the Bengals have done a decent job of keeping their own. I would have liked to have kept Marvin Jones, but Detroit was a chance for him to be THE guy. Sanu got seriously overpaid by the Falcons. I like the guy, but that was ridiculous money.

Whitworth hurt because they did try to keep him, but he mentioned a change of scenery. To me, that speaks volumes about our team. When one of your legends and leaders finally decides he needs to skip town for a change of scenery, something's not right.

Zeitler also got stupid money, but the team never made an attempt to keep him, ever. If you don't value the position, why spend a 1st round pick to let them walk in a few years? No matter how you slice it, that 1st round pick is worth a helluva lot more than the compensatory pick Brown covets when they leave.

Brown's free agency approach is a joke. We obviously had the money this year that we could have kept Whitworth or signed a free agent upgrade. Instead, we stayed par for the course and signed former players and cheap players. Don't get me wrong, I like the Minter signing, but we could have added real help on the OLine.

Everyone talks about the Pats, Steelers, Packers, and whoever else, but those teams have shown at times they're willing to go all in. For all the talk of the Steelers staying in house, they sure as hell made a serious play for DreK this year. How many times do the Pats trade for marquee players to bolster their team? People like to defend the Bengals approach, but Mike Brown half asses it. We are nowhere near the level of the elite teams in the NFL in terms of how their teams are run.

Are these guys being overpaid? The cap was $120 million in 2012. It's $167 million now.

I think that we're not adjusting our thinking accordingly. The 'no Guard is worth $10 million talk.' Well in 2012 dollars that equates to $7.5 million.

[muskiesfan]

(08-20-2017, 10:30 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Are these guys being overpaid? The cap was $120 million in 2012. It's $167 million now.

I think that we're not adjusting our thinking accordingly. The 'no Guard is worth $10 million talk.' Well in 2012 dollars that equates to $7.5 million.

I understand what you're saying, but for Sanu's production, yes I think he was seriously overpaid. For Zeitler, yes I think he was overpaid as well. Zeitler doesn't deserve to be the highest paid guard in the league.

The cap will rise ever year and players will make more every year. Prices for all positions will go up. I agree with that and understand that. There are still times that players will make more than they should. I would have gladly kept Zeitler at $10m a year.

[*Synric*]

(08-20-2017, 10:14 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Why is It a bad idea. They have $18.6 million in cap space now.

This season looks like the offensive line is going to be what kills the season. Too much pressure on Dalton. They are doing a lot of 3 step drops instead of 5. We have all these fast WR's and can't let them use their speed with 5 step drops because of the line.

Then, the defense looks like a dominant D in practice because they're practicing against a bad line. Then, they go against a good one and aren't prepared.

And you think franchising Whitworth or Zeitler and signing a guy like Leary to be a dominant Guard is a bad idea?

Basically...that's like saying 'Cap Space is more valuable to me than competing.'

For one this is all before the draft which would have turned out completely different if you cut starting players like MJ. Without a starting End would they have waited until the 3rd for Willis? More likely they would have either took Barrnet or or reached for Taco. 

Two if you did that then there would be no possible way to extend anyone. I know your gonna argue they haven't yet. But at least they have the chance to do so. 

What I do know is the Bengals have built one of the better overall rosters in football they are doing something right. Complaining about caps and contracts doesn't fix tackling issues or dropped passes.

PS. Then there's cutting vets...look at pacman cutting him is what saving 7m with no dead cap? Looks great idea on the surface but they are sending out a message saying the Bengals cut you before you make a big part of the money...and it's not just the players your also taking money out the sports agencies pocket. Do you think that agency is going to continue recommending doing business with the Brown family after they screwed them over? Unlikely. It's not as cut and dry as reading a number from a website.

[THE PISTONS]

It's really tough to see our team with 3 wins and enough cap space still after a Burfict extension to upgrade 2-3 positions.