The Myth of Having to Go Into a Season With Cap Space

[*ochocincos*]

(11-30-2018, 10:51 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Well...and they lowballed Whitworth who was the team leader. And ultimately paid more without equal production.

Was it a lowball? I thought it was essentially about the same deal as the Rams on a per-year basis but was only 1 year, not 3?

[*Synric*]

(11-30-2018, 10:44 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: As has been brought up in other threads, keeping Whitworth likely was cheaper than having to pay Ced and Glenn. Plus, Whitworth is way more productive than that duo.

(11-30-2018, 10:51 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Well...and they lowballed Whitworth who was the team leader. And ultimately paid more without equal production.

Whitworth stated publicly that the biggest reason he left Cincy is because he wanted a change. You can't blame the FO for a player not wanting to be here anymore.

Quote:"At one point it was just purely loyalty, all you know is Cincinnati and you just need to go back there because that’s all you know," Whitworth said. "I started to really open my eyes to man, what a challenge, and a new place, that would be something that invigorates me and makes me want to push even harder and do even more, find some other part of me that I don’t know exists that I can challenge myself to become. And that’s what really intrigued me about the move.

"And then when I realized I was open to moving, and moving on to a new challenge, I really wanted to be away from Cincinnati’s situation. I wasn’t as keen on going somewhere where’d I play Cincinnati and be around it. I wanted to go far away and kind of have a fresh start."

[THE PISTONS]

(11-30-2018, 10:59 AM)Synric Wrote: Whitworth stated publicly that the biggest reason he left Cincy is because he wanted a change. You can't blame the FO for a player not wanting to be here anymore.

I can't blame the front office for the player not wanting to be here anymore because he wants to be in a different situation not run by the front office?

[Sled21]

(11-30-2018, 10:58 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Was it a lowball? I thought it was essentially about the same deal as the Rams on a per-year basis but was only 1 year, not 3?

Correct....

[*ochocincos*]

(11-30-2018, 11:06 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Correct....

Thanks for confirmation. I guess in terms of total compensation, it is a lowball, but when looking at it on a per-year basis, it's not.
I can somewhat understand the Bengals' logic when negotiating with Whitworth because they probably only had another year, maybe two before he would decline/retire given his age. However, he wasn't showing any signs of decline yet and it's proven to be a mistake by the Bengals to gamble on his decline/retirement.

[*ochocincos*]

Something else worth noting when I was just looking at contracts...
Andy Dalton is the 20th highest-paid QB on an average-per-year basis at $16 mill a year. He is also the lowest paid veteran long-term starter in the league. All other QBs lower are either on rookie deals, backup-level deals, or stopgap starter deal (Tyrod Taylor, $15.25 mill a year for 2 years, right after Dalton on a per-year basis).
Dalton also has the lowest percentage of his contract guaranteed out of all veteran starters at just 17.7%

I think this is important for two reasons:
1) It means there really isn't much of a hit if Dalton were to be released
2) Dalton isn't getting paid nearly as much as most other QB starters in the league, which allows the Bengals to put more money toward other positions. They are paying fair contracts to their star players in Atkins, Dunlap, and Green. The glaring individuals who are probably getting "overpaid" based on their performance are Kirkpatrick (13th highest paid CB) and Cordy Glenn (8th highest paid LT).

So I think outside of a couple bloated contracts in DK and Glenn, the Bengals really just need to get (better) production from (some of) their guys on rookie deals and cheaper veterans.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-30-2018, 11:56 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Thanks for confirmation. I guess in terms of total compensation, it is a lowball, but when looking at it on a per-year basis, it's not.
I can somewhat understand the Bengals' logic when negotiating with Whitworth because they probably only had another year, maybe two before he would decline/retire given his age. However, he wasn't showing any signs of decline yet and it's proven to be a mistake by the Bengals to gamble on his decline/retirement.

Tackles generally don't play well after age 35. He's a total freak of nature.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-30-2018, 02:12 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Tackles generally don't play well after age 35. He's a total freak of nature.

Right, I think that was the justification for only the 1-year contract. But you'd think the organization would know Whitworth more than anyone else for whether he would decline or not after 35. Oh well, it's been done for almost two years now.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-30-2018, 12:13 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Something else worth noting when I was just looking at contracts...
Andy Dalton is the 20th highest-paid QB on an average-per-year basis at $16 mill a year. He is also the lowest paid veteran long-term starter in the league. All other QBs lower are either on rookie deals, backup-level deals, or stopgap starter deal (Tyrod Taylor, $15.25 mill a year for 2 years, right after Dalton on a per-year basis).
Dalton also has the lowest percentage of his contract guaranteed out of all veteran starters at just 17.7%

I think this is important for two reasons:
1) It means there really isn't much of a hit if Dalton were to be released
2) Dalton isn't getting paid nearly as much as most other QB starters in the league, which allows the Bengals to put more money toward other positions. They are paying fair contracts to their star players in Atkins, Dunlap, and Green. The glaring individuals who are probably getting "overpaid" based on their performance are Kirkpatrick (13th highest paid CB) and Cordy Glenn (8th highest paid LT).

So I think outside of a couple bloated contracts in DK and Glenn, the Bengals really just need to get (better) production from (some of) their guys on rookie deals and cheaper veterans.

And MJ. But yes. I agree with your analysis.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-30-2018, 02:36 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: And MJ. But yes. I agree with your analysis.

Yes MJ too, forgot him. Good catch.
MJ is 29th highest paid 4-3 DE.

[fredtoast]

When teams sign free agents they don't pay them according to how they rank among all players at their position. They pay them according to what players at that position are available in free agency that year. Lots of players get overpaid because they become free agents at the right time.

So before you release Kirkpatrick you have to look at what you can get for the same price in free agency that year. It doesn't help to save a couple of million dollars if the replacement is not as good.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-30-2018, 02:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: When teams sign free agents they don't pay them according to how they rank among all players at their position.  They pay them according to what players at that position are available in free agency that year.  Lots of players get overpaid because they become free agents at the right time.

So before you release Kirkpatrick you have to look at what you can get for the same price in free agency that year.  It doesn't help to save a couple of million dollars if the replacement is not as good.

We both know that if they released Kirkpatrick...that they'd probably draft a CB with their 1st Round pick. 

[fortyyearfan]

(08-16-2017, 12:49 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Agreed. Holding onto the $ the way the Bengals do is a very conservative approach, as there's no guarantee extensions will actually happen. If they don't happen, Bengals "roll it over" to next year with the same uncertainty. Rinse and repeat.

By the way all die-hard Bengals fans,IF you really want to have your voice heard,you can write to Mr.Mike Brown at the Bengals address,and he reads all his mail.I know this for a fact,but keep it clean and to the point.He at times will respond to your letter if it has true meaning and is of value. All of us want positive changes,and believe me,he knows this and wants the same thing. For one thing, Mike Brown is not cheap,he pays his players good,he just built a state of the art wt room with all the goodies and he is getting ready for a covered shelter to practice under at his expense.He wants a super bowl more than any one on here,lets get behind him and if you write a ton of letters from a lot of fans,he will take notice,I know this for a fact as he returns my letters with a letter from him.I have them in my office and I have like 15 of them over the years.I help with the draft and I pimped hard for Andrew Billings and Mr. Joe Mixon,which we got.Andrew Billings has been Okay for this season and he is still learning,this is his first full year,but draft another stud DT and watch him in 2019.I will pick a D-lineman in this 2019 draft and we will go from there.

When you write to Mr. Brown,make sure you put at to the side Attn:Mr. Mike Brown,President and CEO. He gets his mail and his secterary reads them all to him and he WILL ANSWER YOU BACK IF you are sincere,clean and make sense. He knows what all of us think and he is on our side.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-30-2018, 03:02 PM)fortyyearfan Wrote: By the way all die-hard Bengals fans,IF you really want to have your voice heard,you can write to Mr.Mike Brown at the Bengals address,and he reads all his mail.I know this for a fact,but keep it clean and to the point.He at times will respond to your letter if it has true meaning and is of value. All of us want positive changes,and believe me,he knows this and wants the same thing. For one thing, Mike Brown is not cheap,he pays his players good,he just built a state of the art wt room with all the goodies and he is getting ready for a covered shelter to practice under at his expense.He wants a super bowl more than any one on here,lets get behind him and if you write a ton of letters from a lot of fans,he will take notice,I know this for a fact as he returns my letters with a letter from him.I have them in my office and I have like 15 of them over the years.I help with the draft and I pimped hard for Andrew Billings and Mr. Joe Mixon,which we got.Andrew Billings has been Okay for this season and he is still learning,this is his first full year,but draft another stud DT and watch him in 2019.I will pick a D-lineman in this 2019 draft and we will go from there.

When you write to Mr. Brown,make sure you put at to the side Attn:Mr. Mike Brown,President and CEO. He gets his mail and his secterary reads them all to him and he WILL ANSWER YOU BACK IF you are sincere,clean and make sense. He knows what all of us think and he is on our side.

Who uses snail mail nowadays?

[fredtoast]

(11-30-2018, 03:04 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Who uses snail mail nowadays?

Who reads Forty's posts?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-30-2018, 03:04 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Who uses snail mail nowadays?

Come on ocho....you know Mikey still does....so long as he isn't spending coin on the stamp.

[Bambam]

(11-30-2018, 03:02 PM)fortyyearfan Wrote: By the way all die-hard Bengals fans,IF you really want to have your voice heard,you can write to Mr.Mike Brown at the Bengals address,and he reads all his mail.I know this for a fact,but keep it clean and to the point.He at times will respond to your letter if it has true meaning and is of value. All of us want positive changes,and believe me,he knows this and wants the same thing. For one thing, Mike Brown is not cheap,he pays his players good,he just built a state of the art wt room with all the goodies and he is getting ready for a covered shelter to practice under at his expense.He wants a super bowl more than any one on here,lets get behind him and if you write a ton of letters from a lot of fans,he will take notice,I know this for a fact as he returns my letters with a letter from him.I have them in my office and I have like 15 of them over the years.I help with the draft and I pimped hard for Andrew Billings and Mr. Joe Mixon,which we got.Andrew Billings has been Okay for this season and he is still learning,this is his first full year,but draft another stud DT and watch him in 2019.I will pick a D-lineman in this 2019 draft and we will go from there.

When you write to Mr. Brown,make sure you put at to the side Attn:Mr. Mike Brown,President and CEO. He gets his mail and his secterary reads them all to him and he WILL ANSWER YOU BACK IF you are sincere,clean and make sense. He knows what all of us think and he is on our side.

This is hilarious. If mike cared about winning he would hire a gm. There isn’t another franchise that would have gone on this long with the same gm without winning a playoff game. He is cheap. Look at how much cap space we have. Mike is still stuck in the 70’s and until he learns that the league has changed we are doomed as a franchise. I will believe the practice bubble when I see it.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-30-2018, 04:15 PM)Wyche Wrote: Come on ocho....you know Mikey still does....so long as he isn't spending coin on the stamp.

Heck, even email is starting to get phased out at companies. They are moving toward collaboration apps like Slack or Flowdock.

[I_C_DeadPeople]

End of the day there are two issues with the cap management:

First, the Bengals manage their cap in a very conservative manner. Successful teams manage it in an aggressive fashion. That puts us probably $10-$15M BEHIND other teams each year. Other teams know the cap is going up every year so they can push money out in time which the Bengals never do. This also effects how we attempt to re-sign players. Lets use Zeitler - at the time perhaps 5 years at $10M per year seems high, but 3 years later good guards are now at $12-$14M so the latter part of the contract is favorable.

Second, they are inconsistent with the 'we sign our own' - they will let a good player go because they want too much but then then sign others to values far more than they should have. They are not clinical enough in this part of player management.

Now an additional issue is inconsistent coaching and hot/cold drafting - both could be fixed with more/better staff in these areas.

Each one of these in of itself is not the end of the world but combine them all and you have no chance to compete with the best teams.

[t3r3e3]

(11-30-2018, 03:04 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Who uses snail mail nowadays?

Guys that drive Luminas and eat at Wendy’s