Four consecutive years

[Shake n Blake]

(10-16-2017, 03:48 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The telling thing is we've had 5 playoff wins in 50 years and NONE since modern free agency. The Steelers have appeared in 16 AFC Championship games.

The way we do things here is not normal. No other teams shun free agency. No other teams tout compensatory picks like they are gold. Other teams have scouts.

When will the rest of the fans wake up? Instead they come up with conspiracies where the league wants the Steelers and Patriots to win. And talk about bad luck.

Hmmm...seems to me like the teams that invest resources into winning and that are well managed generally win.

I think some people just choose to live in willful ignorance. I just can't believe anyone is dumb enough to look at all the facts and still actually believe in the "Bengals way". They just want to be happy and excited about the team, so they choose to shut out the negative facts and hype unproven draft picks as if we're one big "hit" away.

I can't hate these people for feeling that way. It's how they choose to be a fan. It can be frustrating when they refuse to listen to reason though.   

That said, even homers have their moments of frustration where they'll admit that there's major issues with this franchise, but a week later they're usually back to rainbows and unicorns.

[*Synric*]

(10-16-2017, 06:21 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I think some people just choose to live in willful ignorance. I just can't believe anyone is dumb enough to look at all the facts and still actually believe in the "Bengals way". They just want to be happy and excited about the team, so they choose to shut out the negative facts and hype unproven draft picks as if we're one big "hit" away.

I can't hate these people for feeling that way. It's how they choose to be a fan. It can be frustrating when they refuse to listen to reason though.   

That said, even homers have their moments of frustration where they'll admit that there's major issues with this franchise, but a week later they're usually back to rainbows and unicorns.

The Front office have made their share of mistakes but I just disagree with some of the unrealistic FA expectations and things like if the first round draft doesn't play their first season its a failure by the front office. As for the team I think Mike Brown, Marvin Lewis, and Duke Tobin have really built a solid competitive football team in the Andy Dalton Era. 

During this time the defense has been the most consistent part averaging in the top of the league. Even though we can argue who is the best player on defense Geno or Burfict its the secondary thats really held the unit together. Starting with Mike Zimmer and his veterans: Leon Hall, Reggie Nelson, Terrance Newman, Adam Jones, and Chris Crocker. They drafted and developed and impressive amount of young defensive backs Dre Kirkpatrick, George Iloka, Shawn Williams, Chris Lewis-Harris, Darqueze Dennard, Josh Shaw, and William Jackson III.

The ugly thing about the defense is the wasted amount of draft picks on players in the front 7 that didnt develop during that same time frame: Devon Still, Brandon Thompson, Dontay Moch, Sean Porter, Margus Hunt, Marcus Hardison, Will Clarke, Paul Dawson. They tried to address the front 7 its just never worked out. PG did get a new defensive line coach and we have seen a change in the attitude toward the lineman.

The offense has been up and down mostly due to injuries. Im gonna pass over any Andy Dalton discussion and just say Andy has been and is their choice at QB day one since he was drafted and played most of his career without injury. The offensive line and the inline TE were a veteran group which was good for Dalton early but they also had some injuries there like Andre Smith and Kyle cook. They drafted well on offense early in Dalton's career: AJ Green, Clint Boiling, Kevin Zeitler, Mohammed Sanu, Marvin Jones, Giovani Bernard. Then there's what could have been with Tyler Eifert was he a bad pick? Because the injuries maybe but you also have to think of the flashes of greatness he did show. 

After picking Eifert and Jay Gruden leaving the offensive drafting went downhill: Jeremy Hill, Cedric Ogbeuhi, Russell Bodine, Jake Fisher, Tyler Kroft, Tyler Boyd, Cody Core. No one can say that the staff didnt see the need for Offensive Tackles because they did draft two with high picks. The issue is that those tackles havent worked out...so far (got to have a little hope I am a fan lol). I also think they should have brought in any interior offensive lineman (Draft or FA) over Winston the last what 3 years hes been here? to compete with Bodine and maybe back up Zeitler when he left.

Even if this season is 6-10 or 8-8 I still think this is a well put together football team with a bright future going into the off season.










No matter who the head coach is....lol.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-16-2017, 08:18 PM)Synric Wrote: The Front office have made their share of mistakes but I just disagree with some of the unrealistic FA expectations and things like if the first round draft doesn't play their first season its a failure by the front office. As for the team I think Mike Brown, Marvin Lewis, and Duke Tobin have really built a solid competitive football team in the Andy Dalton Era. 

During this time the defense has been the most consistent part averaging in the top of the league. Even though we can argue who is the best player on defense Geno or Burfict its the secondary thats really held the unit together. Starting with Mike Zimmer and his veterans: Leon Hall, Reggie Nelson, Terrance Newman, Adam Jones, and Chris Crocker. They drafted and developed and impressive amount of young defensive backs Dre Kirkpatrick, George Iloka, Shawn Williams, Chris Lewis-Harris, Darqueze Dennard, Josh Shaw, and William Jackson III.

The ugly thing about the defense is the wasted amount of draft picks on players in the front 7 that didnt develop during that same time frame: Devon Still, Brandon Thompson, Dontay Moch, Sean Porter, Margus Hunt, Marcus Hardison, Will Clarke, Paul Dawson. They tried to address the front 7 its just never worked out. PG did get a new defensive line coach and we have seen a change in the attitude toward the lineman.

The offense has been up and down mostly due to injuries. Im gonna pass over any Andy Dalton discussion and just say Andy has been and is their choice at QB day one since he was drafted and played most of his career without injury. The offensive line and the inline TE were a veteran group which was good for Dalton early but they also had some injuries there like Andre Smith and Kyle cook. They drafted well on offense early in Dalton's career: AJ Green, Clint Boiling, Kevin Zeitler, Mohammed Sanu, Marvin Jones, Giovani Bernard. Then there's what could have been with Tyler Eifert was he a bad pick? Because the injuries maybe but you also have to think of the flashes of greatness he did show. 

After picking Eifert and Jay Gruden leaving the offensive drafting went downhill: Jeremy Hill, Cedric Ogbeuhi, Russell Bodine, Jake Fisher, Tyler Kroft, Tyler Boyd, Cody Core. No one can say that the staff didnt see the need for Offensive Tackles because they did draft two with high picks. The issue is that those tackles havent worked out...so far (got to have a little hope I am a fan lol). I also think they should have brought in any interior offensive lineman (Draft or FA) over Winston the last what 3 years hes been here? to compete with Bodine and maybe back up Zeitler when he left.

Even if this season is 6-10 or 8-8 I still think this is a well put together football team with a bright future going into the off season.










No matter who the head coach is....lol.

You just perfectly illustrated Shake's post.

Some fans will think we have a contender no matter what. Like you said if we go 6-10 you'll think we're going to be a contender next year. And you know what? In the NFL, 23 teams have played in a Super Bowl since we last did. So most teams do go to the Super Bowl.

And some of the positive things you noted were warranted...but this is a team that let it's 2 best offensive lineman leave in free agency without replacing them with a viable replacement(s).

Just imagine 2 years ago when we had a 12-4 team if before the season the Bengals signed a quality Center in free agency.

That's my biggest gripe with the team. They drafted a good young team and had a few weaknesses that they chose not to address.

Well, free agency has ripped the core apart. Yeah Geno is here. Dunlap. Green. Dalton. But we've lost a lot of quality players.

You can't replace the guys you lose with drafting alone because in a draft you never know which players you pick will pan out. It's a crap shoot.

[*Synric*]

(10-16-2017, 10:48 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: You just perfectly illustrated Shake's post.

Some fans will think we have a contender no matter what. Like you said if we go 6-10 you'll think we're going to be a contender next year. And you know what? In the NFL, 23 teams have played in a Super Bowl since we last did. So most teams do go to the Super Bowl.

And some of the positive things you noted were warranted...but this is a team that let it's 2 best offensive lineman leave in free agency without replacing them with a viable replacement(s).

Just imagine 2 years ago when we had a 12-4 team if before the season the Bengals signed a quality Center in free agency.

That's my biggest gripe with the team. They drafted a good young team and had a few weaknesses that they chose not to address.

Well, free agency has ripped the core apart. Yeah Geno is here. Dunlap. Green. Dalton. But we've lost a lot of quality players.

You can't replace the guys you lose with drafting alone because in a draft you never know which players you pick will pan out. It's a crap shoot.

I agree with alot of the stuff your saying really the only thing I disagree with is that going huge free agency (outside of their house) is a must to create a great team. And I think people easily dismiss alot of the players Mike, Marvin, and Duke tobin have drafted developed and locked up under contract.

Your right I wish they had added some talent on the interior line since Bodine's sophomore year instead of holding onto Eric Winston. It could have been in the draft or in free agency.

Maybe it makes me a Homer but I prefer to stay positive. If the Offensive line can just play a little better each week especially the young tackles and find a run game...if the defense continues to play lights out...if not well they better stock up on big uglies next offseason on both the offense and defensive lines.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-16-2017, 05:41 PM)XenoMorph Wrote:  your GLARING issues is due to guys being on Rookie Deals...  Only A Smith and Boiling aren't still on their rookie deals.   that money moved to other positions for now and in a year or two the price of our OL will go way back up. 

You don't cut first and 2nd round talent without putting them on the Field.

Good point, but I know that most of the OL are on rookie deals and that's a big part of why the spending is down. However, those players aren't doing well, it's been known since last offseason that the OL needed upgraded, and yet the decision was to let them start and see how they grow. Maybe the OTs needed some grooming to become good but there was no hope for Bodine improving after three seasons of the same old, same old. That's a gamble that I'm still skeptical will pay off given their performance through the first five games.

What's more important is this coming offseason there will be an opportunity to upgrade center since Bodine is set to hit FA. The Bengals have a great opportunity to pick up a much better center in FA, as there are quite a few options to go after. Weston Richburg, Spencer Long, and Corey Linsley are the ones who stand out to me. It's also worth noting that Jake Fisher enters a contract year next year and Ogbuehi too if the Bengals don't take on his 5th year option (they shouldn't at this point). So next offseason is also an opportunity to draft (at least) one OT high that is probably more safe than just all-world potential.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-17-2017, 01:01 AM)Synric Wrote: I agree with alot of the stuff your saying really the only thing I disagree with is that going huge free agency (outside of their house) is a must to create a great team. And I think people easily dismiss alot of the players Mike, Marvin, and Duke tobin have drafted developed and locked up under contract.

Your right I wish they had added some talent on the interior line since Bodine's sophomore year instead of holding onto Eric Winston. It could have been in the draft or in free agency.

Maybe it makes me a Homer but I prefer to stay positive. If the Offensive line can just play a little better each week especially the young tackles and find a run game...if the defense continues to play lights out...if not well they better stock up on big uglies next offseason on both the offense and defensive lines.

I think there is a huge misunderstanding when me, Shake, Wyche say we need to sign impact free agents. People assume we mean go out and sign Suh or the top-priced free agent.

That is not what we advocate.

Nor do we advocate building an entire team through free agency. I realize we must draft well to win. I also realize that we must sign some Tier 2 and 3 free agents to supplement the roster.

We have the cap space. Before we signed Burfict, we had $18.5 million in cap space. After Whitworth and Zeitler left...what if we signed a Ronald Leary for $8.5 million a year? Or a TJ Lang for $6 million a year at Guard.

Or in 2016, Alex Macks cap hit was 4.05 million. He then costed $8.5 million this year. But that's a small cost for the best Center in the game and as I said we have the cap space.

Instead, after DeCastro signed a contract for $10 million a year...the Bengals offered Zeitler (according to Lapham) $5.5 million a year. They lowballed him.

The NFL is watered down this year big time. If there was ever a time to go all in on the roster to try to win a Super Bowl it's this year! Yet we didn't.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-16-2017, 03:05 PM)ochocincos Wrote: A glaring issue - The Bengals are 30th in cap spent on offensive line. Their highest paid player (Boling) doesn't even account for $5 mill against the cap, ranking the 74th highest paid player on the OL across the NFL based on average salary. Most teams have 2-3 players on OL being paid higher than him.
Yet the Bengals have 42% of their cap spent on the offensive side as whole.
How, you may ask?
Primarily tied up in WR, in which the Bengals are 6th highest in the league at $24.31 mill. $21.6 mill of that is being occupied by three WRs: AJ Green ($13.5 mill - justified), LaFell ($5 mill - garbage this year), and John Ross ($3.1 mill - unable to play due to injuries). The glaring one out of this is LaFell, who I'd much rather see cut in the offseason and that saved cap go toward OL.

The Bengals also have a lot of money tied up into defense (48.59% - 6th highest).
They are paying a lot of heavy hitters to account for this: Atkins ($10.6 mil - justified), Kirkpatrick ($9.38 mill - meh not worth that much, but not a terrible deal), Burfict ($8.3 mill - justified?), Adam Jones ($7.39 mill - justified?), Dunlap ($7.25 mill - justified), Iloka ($5.4 mill - fair), Michael Johnson ($5.12 mill - not worth the role he's in now), Minter ($4.25 mill - not worth the role he's playing), Williams ($4 mill - fair?).

Cut bait with those being (vastly) overpaid and/or underperforming, invest that into OL and maybe a WR that can actually contribute well, and we should see the offense improve. The defense may take a hit, but I'd gladly take that to be solid and balanced on offense.

There has been a lot of rumbling that what the new CBA does is make teams spend a lot of their cap on the highest paid players, then rely on guys on rookie deals because they are cheap. The speculation is that the mid-tier players have been squeezed out.

Why sign a Center for $3-4 million a year when you can rely on a rookie making $600k? There is a dropoff in play, but a cost savings.

This is happening around the league and play is definitely worse overall this year.

While we do look mediocre, a lot of teams do. There is no dominant team.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-17-2017, 10:09 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: There has been a lot of rumbling that what the new CBA does is make teams spend a lot of their cap on the highest paid players, then rely on guys on rookie deals because they are cheap. The speculation is that the mid-tier players have been squeezed out.

Why sign a Center for $3-4 million a year when you can rely on a rookie making $600k? There is a dropoff in play, but a cost savings.

This is happening around the league and play is definitely worse overall this year.

While we do look mediocre, a lot of teams do. There is no dominant team.

Well if that's the case, the Bengals better not re-sign Bodine and go with a rookie. You just made the argument to move on from Bodine one way or another

[THE PISTONS]

(10-17-2017, 10:23 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Well if that's the case, the Bengals better not re-sign Bodine and go with a rookie. You just made the argument to move on from Bodine one way or another

Oh...I think there is a good chance that they do draft a rookie and start him.

[muskiesfan]

(10-17-2017, 01:01 AM)Synric Wrote: I agree with alot of the stuff your saying really the only thing I disagree with is that going huge free agency (outside of their house) is a must to create a great team. And I think people easily dismiss alot of the players Mike, Marvin, and Duke tobin have drafted developed and locked up under contract.

Your right I wish they had added some talent on the interior line since Bodine's sophomore year instead of holding onto Eric Winston. It could have been in the draft or in free agency.

Maybe it makes me a Homer but I prefer to stay positive. If the Offensive line can just play a little better each week especially the young tackles and find a run game...if the defense continues to play lights out...if not well they better stock up on big uglies next offseason on both the offense and defensive lines.

See, the Bengals can add impact free agents that don't have to be Day 1 bank-breaking deals. There are still quality players available in tier 2 and tier 3. Unfortunately, the Bengals wait until weeks later and sign busts because they're former 1st rounders and cheap, they sign over-the-hill end of their career players because they're cheap, or they re-sign former players who left for big pay days and fell on their face and are now willing to play for cheap.

There are plenty of other Minter types that the team could sign that would be helpful. Signing young players or players coming into their prime is a much better option than former busts, old guys, or former Bengals. They don't have to go after the Suhs, Mike Wallaces, Darrelle Revis', and so on. There are plenty of players in the tier just below them that can be had for reasonable contracts. Of course, flying them in coach and taking them to Wendy's may not win them over, but those are the type of free agents that could come in and help put us over the hump without breaking the bank.

Mike Brown is all about padding his and his family's bank accounts. That is and will always be priority number 1 as long as he's here. If he went out and spent and actually tried to win like 31 other NFL teams do, he'd make even more money. That's the thing I don't understand about Ebenezer Brown. He could make even more money if he spent money to make a legitimate run at a title. Instead he keeps more money than required to sign draft picks, he keeps the highest injury pool in the league, and rolls over money every year.

Free agency could be an amazing supplement to our draft strategy without us throwing around stupid money on the first day. There are plenty of reasonably priced upgrades available every free agency that we pass on to sign an aging bench player.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-17-2017, 12:46 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: See, the Bengals can add impact free agents that don't have to be Day 1 bank-breaking deals. There are still quality players available in tier 2 and tier 3. Unfortunately, the Bengals wait until weeks later and sign busts because they're former 1st rounders and cheap, they sign over-the-hill end of their career players because they're cheap, or they re-sign former players who left for big pay days and fell on their face and are now willing to play for cheap.

There are plenty of other Minter types that the team could sign that would be helpful. Signing young players or players coming into their prime is a much better option than former busts, old guys, or former Bengals. They don't have to go after the Suhs, Mike Wallaces, Darrelle Revis', and so on. There are plenty of players in the tier just below them that can be had for reasonable contracts. Of course, flying them in coach and taking them to Wendy's may not win them over, but those are the type of free agents that could come in and help put us over the hump without breaking the bank.

Mike Brown is all about padding his and his family's bank accounts. That is and will always be priority number 1 as long as he's here. If he went out and spent and actually tried to win like 31 other NFL teams do, he'd make even more money. That's the thing I don't understand about Ebenezer Brown. He could make even more money if he spent money to make a legitimate run at a title. Instead he keeps more money than required to sign draft picks, he keeps the highest injury pool in the league, and rolls over money every year.

Free agency could be an amazing supplement to our draft strategy without us throwing around stupid money on the first day. There are plenty of reasonably priced upgrades available every free agency that we pass on to sign an aging bench player.

Speaking of Minter, he's not been very productive for what he's being paid. He's played the fifth-most snaps of all the LBs and only has 22 combined tackles to show for it. Not really worth the $4.25 mill investment. Kind of a steep price for a backup.

[TheUberHuber]

(10-17-2017, 10:09 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: There has been a lot of rumbling that what the new CBA does is make teams spend a lot of their cap on the highest paid players, then rely on guys on rookie deals because they are cheap. The speculation is that the mid-tier players have been squeezed out.

Why sign a Center for $3-4 million a year when you can rely on a rookie making $600k? There is a dropoff in play, but a cost savings.

This is happening around the league and play is definitely worse overall this year.

While we do look mediocre, a lot of teams do. There is no dominant team.

I am wondering if they will address this in the new deal they make. What they have going now is still better (imo) than rookies holding out for absurd contracts or rookies making tons of money to suck it up. 

[THE PISTONS]

(10-17-2017, 12:46 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: See, the Bengals can add impact free agents that don't have to be Day 1 bank-breaking deals. There are still quality players available in tier 2 and tier 3. Unfortunately, the Bengals wait until weeks later and sign busts because they're former 1st rounders and cheap, they sign over-the-hill end of their career players because they're cheap, or they re-sign former players who left for big pay days and fell on their face and are now willing to play for cheap.

There are plenty of other Minter types that the team could sign that would be helpful. Signing young players or players coming into their prime is a much better option than former busts, old guys, or former Bengals. They don't have to go after the Suhs, Mike Wallaces, Darrelle Revis', and so on. There are plenty of players in the tier just below them that can be had for reasonable contracts. Of course, flying them in coach and taking them to Wendy's may not win them over, but those are the type of free agents that could come in and help put us over the hump without breaking the bank.

Mike Brown is all about padding his and his family's bank accounts. That is and will always be priority number 1 as long as he's here. If he went out and spent and actually tried to win like 31 other NFL teams do, he'd make even more money. That's the thing I don't understand about Ebenezer Brown. He could make even more money if he spent money to make a legitimate run at a title. Instead he keeps more money than required to sign draft picks, he keeps the highest injury pool in the league, and rolls over money every year.

Free agency could be an amazing supplement to our draft strategy without us throwing around stupid money on the first day. There are plenty of reasonably priced upgrades available every free agency that we pass on to sign an aging bench player.

The Bengals are free agency 'vultures'. They wait until most of the guys are signed then pick through the rest. The guys that get desperate to sign somewhere.

The con of that is what are the odds that the guys that haven't signed fit their system?

Look no further than the Harrison signing. He was an OLB in a 3-4 that totally didn't fit the Bengals system. At the time, Dansby was younger and did fit their system and would fill a need. Dansby wanted more money though...so they signed Harrison.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-17-2017, 01:03 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Speaking of Minter, he's not been very productive for what he's being paid. He's played the fifth-most snaps of all the LBs and only has 22 combined tackles to show for it. Not really worth the $4.25 mill investment. Kind of a steep price for a backup.

Minter wasn't very good with the Cardinals...but he was better than Maualuga.

I wouldn't consider him a Tier 2 or 3 signing. He's probably Tier 4ish.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-17-2017, 01:20 PM)TheUberHuber Wrote: I am wondering if they will address this in the new deal they make. What they have going now is still better (imo) than rookies holding out for absurd contracts or rookies making tons of money to suck it up. 

Yeah. In some ways (slotted rookie deals) it helped the Bengals.

In some ways it hurt them badly as we had a lot of our core become free agents in the past 2 years and they allowed most to leave...and replace them with drafted guys. (Sanu, Jones, Nelson, Hall, Peko, Whitworth, Zeitler, and Nelson. That's basically 8 starters.) Then guys like Maualuga and Dansby are gone. Smith left and came back too.

The premium positions got paid more in free agency which makes the Bengals choose to let them go and replace them with a rookie.

The team won't totally fall off the competitive cliff until Atkins leaves. He's a free agent after next season.

[*Synric*]

(10-17-2017, 01:41 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: (Sanu, Jones, Nelson, Hall, Peko, Whitworth, Zeitler, and Nelson. That's basically 8 starters.) Then guys like Maualuga and Dansby are gone. Smith left and came back too.

The year Sanu and Marvin Jones left the Bengals signed two pretty good wide receivers.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-17-2017, 02:03 PM)Synric Wrote: The year Sanu and Marvin Jones left the Bengals signed two pretty good wide receivers.

Assume you mean LaFell and Boyd.
LaFell and Boyd had good first years in Cincinnati last year, totaling 1465 yards and 7 TD.
However, this year they have combined for 151 yards and 0 TD in five games. Spread that out over 16 games, it ends up as 483 yards.
They are plain horrible this year.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-17-2017, 02:03 PM)Synric Wrote: The year Sanu and Marvin Jones left the Bengals signed two pretty good wide receivers.

Did they replace EVERY single guy on that list with a quality starter?

Again SOMEONE will start. You let Zeitler walk and a player on the roster will start. That doesn't mean he's a quality starter though.

I do agree though that Lafell and Boyd were decent replacements for Sanu and Jones...although Jones speed is missed at some level.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-17-2017, 02:49 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Assume you mean LaFell and Boyd.
LaFell and Boyd had good first years in Cincinnati last year, totaling 1465 yards and 7 TD.
However, this year they have combined for 151 yards and 0 TD in five games. Spread that out over 16 games, it ends up as 483 yards.
They are plain horrible this year.

Yeah statistically LaFell replaced Jones production. But LaFell isn't a deep threat. He doesn't make defenses have to focus on him.

Someone is going to catch passes for a team so it goes far beyond stats.

[*Synric*]

(10-17-2017, 02:49 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Assume you mean LaFell and Boyd.
LaFell and Boyd had good first years in Cincinnati last year, totaling 1465 yards and 7 TD.
However, this year they have combined for 151 yards and 0 TD in five games. Spread that out over 16 games, it ends up as 483 yards.
They are plain horrible this year.

Boyd was drafted. They signed another receiver besides Lafell.