Four consecutive years

[*ochocincos*]

(10-17-2017, 03:34 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yeah statistically LaFell replaced Jones production. But LaFell isn't a deep threat. He doesn't make defenses have to focus on him.

Someone is going to catch passes for a team so it goes far beyond stats.

Same with Sanu. This was especially evident when both Jones and Green were out and Sanu was the #1 option. Remember the Bengals-Colts playoff game where the top receiver was Bernard? Then Hewitt, then Burkhead. Sanu was fourth. FOURTH! The Colts didn't feel threatened about the receivers going deep or even getting separation, so they single covered them and focused on the running game.

For the record, I always considered LaFell and Boyd the same type of player. Solid guy who can play multiple spots but won't beat you with speed or via leaping ability. Both are more ideal fits as slot receivers with AJ Green and a deep threat on the field with them to ensure there will be some openings underneath for them to get open. With Erickson also on the roster, the Bengals also have essentially three slot receivers. That's one too many.

My hope is that (at least) one of John Ross, Cody Core, and/or Josh Malone will step up as that vertical threat to open up underneath coverage for LaFell/Boyd. Hasn't happened yet though.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-17-2017, 03:40 PM)Synric Wrote: Boyd was drafted. They signed another receiver besides Lafell.

They did? I honestly can't remember who it was...? Boyd and Core were draft picks, Erickson was UDFA. The team had James Wright, but he was next to worthless. You couldn't have meant him.

EDIT - Did you mean Brandon Tate, who was re-signed to a 1-year deal in March 2016 but cut in favor of Erickson and also was never a very good contributor on offense?

[*Synric*]

(10-17-2017, 03:32 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Did they replace EVERY single guy on that list with a quality starter?

Again SOMEONE will start. You let Zeitler walk and a player on the roster will start. That doesn't mean he's a quality starter though.

I do agree though that Lafell and Boyd were decent replacements for Sanu and Jones...although Jones speed is missed at some level.

I agree they didn't haven't looked at interior lineman over the last couple offseasons.

[*Synric*]

(10-17-2017, 03:45 PM)ochocincos Wrote: They did? I honestly can't remember who it was...? Boyd and Core were draft picks, Erickson was UDFA. The team had James Wright, but he was next to worthless. You couldn't have meant him.

EDIT - Did you mean Brandon Tate, who was re-signed to a 1-year deal in March 2016 but cut in favor of Erickson and also was never a very good contributor on offense?

AJ Green got his extention before the season.(9/15) Then signed Brandon Lafell and drafted Tyler Boyd in the second.

Injuries to Dalton's top 3 targets AJ, Eifert, and Gio are what hurt the receiving last season. Zampese to an extent also.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-17-2017, 03:53 PM)Synric Wrote: AJ Green got his extention before the season.(9/15) Then signed Brandon Lafell and drafted Tyler Boyd in the second.

Injuries to Dalton's top 3 targets AJ, Eifert, and Gio are what hurt the receiving last season. Zampese to an extent also.

Your original statement of "The year Sanu and Marvin Jones left the Bengals signed two pretty good wide receivers" implies they signed two receivers to replace them. Green was never meant to replace either of them since he was already there and was the WR1. LaFell was meant to replace Jones and Boyd was meant to replace Sanu. So my previous statement of "LaFell and Boyd" still stands as being true.

The problem was they replaced a true WR2 with potential as a deep threat and a possession receiver with two possession receivers. They got less explosive at WR because they lost Marvin Jones. Eifert hurt didn't help, but he wasn't exactly a deep threat either. Neither was Bernard. The only deep threat the Bengals had last year besides AJ was Core, but he was too raw. This year, the Bengals did add more explosiveness with John Ross and Josh Malone to go along with Core and AJ, but Ross hasn't been able to see the field due to injuries and Malone has been a healthy inactive every game because he's too raw. Therefore, the Bengals have been in the same situation explosiveness wise as they were last year.

[wolfkaosaun]

The Bengals draft for the future with their 1st rounders more often than not.

Ogbuehi was drafted for the future. As was Kirkpatrick, Dennard, and WJIII.

But many players did contribute.

Eifert had 445 yards as a backup TE.
Darqueze Dennard didn't start and had little playing time, but he was the SECOND Bengal to cause a turnover in the playoffs under Marvin Lewis.
Kevin Zeitler was a starter and did well for a rookie.

Now, I understand you said last 4 years. But WJIII wasn't going to start last year. Everyone knew that.
Nor was Ogbuehi.
Dennard was a toss up.

Ross is the only player the last 4 years that could have started.

Oh, and if this helps you feel better, Odell Beckham Jr. didn't play his first game until week 5. Didn't get his first start until week 6. Which was middle of October.

Give. Rookies. Time.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-17-2017, 03:42 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Same with Sanu. This was especially evident when both Jones and Green were out and Sanu was the #1 option. Remember the Bengals-Colts playoff game where the top receiver was Bernard? Then Hewitt, then Burkhead. Sanu was fourth. FOURTH! The Colts didn't feel threatened about the receivers going deep or even getting separation, so they single covered them and focused on the running game.

For the record, I always considered LaFell and Boyd the same type of player. Solid guy who can play multiple spots but won't beat you with speed or via leaping ability. Both are more ideal fits as slot receivers with AJ Green and a deep threat on the field with them to ensure there will be some openings underneath for them to get open. With Erickson also on the roster, the Bengals also have essentially three slot receivers. That's one too many.

My hope is that (at least) one of John Ross, Cody Core, and/or Josh Malone will step up as that vertical threat to open up underneath coverage for LaFell/Boyd. Hasn't happened yet though.

I'm with you on that all. And the Bengals did make a large offer to Jones so they recognized his speed. He just wanted to try to be a #1 in Detroit. Had they kept Jones...Iloka was going to be allowed to leave supposedly.

We know about Ross's speed...and yeah guys like Desean Jackson had good careers as smaller guys...but they are extreme outliers.

I wish Core were given more opportunities...but there has to be a reason why he's not playing.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-17-2017, 03:45 PM)Synric Wrote: I agree they didn't haven't looked at interior lineman over the last couple offseasons.

See when we take a step back and try to understand what we're all saying...we're not actually that far apart.

I commend you for this dialogue.

Too many times do things on the board get broken into extremes. 'He wants us to sign free agents! That means sign Suh! The Redskins do stuff like that and don't win!!!' or 'The Browns sign free agents and they're bad!'

I think you need a mixture of good drafting and wise free agent moves. Maybe 60/40 if you count retaining your own free agents in the free agent equation.

IF you don't use free agency though, you just can't draft good enough every year to replace the guys you use. Our 5 years of playoffs was largely fueled by an aberration. We had absolutely 2 GREAT DRAFTS in a row with Dalton/Green/Boling and Dunlap/Atkins. That's 2 HOF players and 4 Pro Bowl players in 2 drafts. You aren't going to see that a lot. It's an extreme outlier and most of our drafts since then have been average to below average.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-17-2017, 09:56 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I think there is a huge misunderstanding when me, Shake, Wyche say we need to sign impact free agents. People assume we mean go out and sign Suh or the top-priced free agent.

That is not what we advocate.

Nor do we advocate building an entire team through free agency. I realize we must draft well to win. I also realize that we must sign some Tier 2 and 3 free agents to supplement the roster.

We have the cap space. Before we signed Burfict, we had $18.5 million in cap space. After Whitworth and Zeitler left...what if we signed a Ronald Leary for $8.5 million a year? Or a TJ Lang for $6 million a year at Guard.

Or in 2016, Alex Macks cap hit was 4.05 million. He then costed $8.5 million this year. But that's a small cost for the best Center in the game and as I said we have the cap space.

Instead, after DeCastro signed a contract for $10 million a year...the Bengals offered Zeitler (according to Lapham) $5.5 million a year. They lowballed him.

The NFL is watered down this year big time. If there was ever a time to go all in on the roster to try to win a Super Bowl it's this year! Yet we didn't.

This. Right. Here.

IF I ever advocated a tier 1 FA, it would be on the o line....or maybe a MLB during the "Hockaloogey" days.  We could have had Alex Mack, extended Zeitler, and picked up a T in the draft or FA, and think where this line would be, versus where it actually is.  All it would have taken was cutting some dead weight, and a little creativity.  This is where I take issue with our FO.....that, and listening to Ebony and Ivory about who to pick up front in the draft.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-17-2017, 12:46 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: See, the Bengals can add impact free agents that don't have to be Day 1 bank-breaking deals. There are still quality players available in tier 2 and tier 3. Unfortunately, the Bengals wait until weeks later and sign busts because they're former 1st rounders and cheap, they sign over-the-hill end of their career players because they're cheap, or they re-sign former players who left for big pay days and fell on their face and are now willing to play for cheap.

There are plenty of other Minter types that the team could sign that would be helpful. Signing young players or players coming into their prime is a much better option than former busts, old guys, or former Bengals. They don't have to go after the Suhs, Mike Wallaces, Darrelle Revis', and so on. There are plenty of players in the tier just below them that can be had for reasonable contracts. Of course, flying them in coach and taking them to Wendy's may not win them over, but those are the type of free agents that could come in and help put us over the hump without breaking the bank.

Mike Brown is all about padding his and his family's bank accounts. That is and will always be priority number 1 as long as he's here. If he went out and spent and actually tried to win like 31 other NFL teams do, he'd make even more money. That's the thing I don't understand about Ebenezer Brown. He could make even more money if he spent money to make a legitimate run at a title. Instead he keeps more money than required to sign draft picks, he keeps the highest injury pool in the league, and rolls over money every year.

Free agency could be an amazing supplement to our draft strategy without us throwing around stupid money on the first day. There are plenty of reasonably priced upgrades available every free agency that we pass on to sign an aging bench player.

As the old adage goes.....ya gotta spend money to make money.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-18-2017, 10:02 AM)Wyche Wrote: This. Right. Here.

IF I ever advocated a tier 1 FA, it would be on the o line....or maybe a MLB during the "Hockaloogey" days.  We could have had Alex Mack, extended Zeitler, and picked up a T in the draft or FA, and think where this line would be, versus where it actually is.  All it would have taken was cutting some dead weight, and a little creativity.  This is where I take issue with our FO.....that, and listening to Ebony and Ivory about who to pick up front in the draft.

The irony is the Bengals hold their cap space thinking they can be competitive in future years...and we had what 6.5 wins last year? And this year we're likely headed for 8 or less.

[THE PISTONS]

I do think that people make too big of a deal is made of our 1st Round picks not playing in Year 1. That is complaining about a symptom.

The root cause is the Bengals generally draft guys with an eye towards replacing guys they won't want to pay in free agency 1-3 years down the road.

Yes, we didn't draft Eifert to form a potent 1-2 punch with Gresham. He was drafted to replace him.

The CB's we drafted were to replace Hall, Newman, and others.

The Tackles to replace Smith and Whitworth.

Ross is here to replace Green in 2.5 years when he is a free agent.

Drafting to replace guys you may lose in and of itself isn't a big deal, but it becomes a bigger deal when you don't sign free agents and the draft becomes your sole source of acquiring talent. Then in the shortrun it hurts you and in the long-run it makes you mediocre?

Why? Because when you have good Tackles like Smith and Whitworth, had we just kept Smith who was late 20's when they let him walk the 1st time...you draft a Tackle. Had you kept Smith and drafted another position, maybe you upgrade that other position. You stay the same at 1 position and improve at another. That HELPS you that year. By letting him go, you decline at 2 positions...as no rookie will likely adequately replace a Good starter.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-18-2017, 10:13 AM)Wyche Wrote: As the old adage goes.....ya gotta spend money to make money.

Yep. Maybe add 2-3 more scouts. Things that won't cost millions of dollars but could improve things.

Nope. They're living off of 2 great drafts nearly a decade ago now.