WHY are you surprised? Most of our core left in free agency over the past 2 years...

[*Go Cards*]

Many supported a lot of those moves claiming the price was not right.

They say MB is cheap but they seem to support that when making such claims

[*Nately120*]

(10-25-2017, 01:35 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I don't think most of us are surprised, Pistons.

Outside of a small handful of homerific predictions, I saw mostly guys saying we'd win 6-7 games all off-season.

I don't think we're losing because the entire roster is bad. That's where you and I differ. It's just that this o-line is so epically bad that it completely cripples the offense. Yeah the defense was bad against the Steelers, but that was a typical Marvin choke job special. I do think this is still a top 10 defense at the end of the year.

If we had a competent o-line (not even great, just competent) I still think we'd have a 10 win team. Would they still lose in the first round? You betcha, but the talent is still there outside of o-line and maybe receivers.

There is talent on this team, to be sure.  I see us as being the Pittsburgh Pirates of the NFL:  We have a business model that caps our level of success, but occasionally enough things go right that we make it into the playoffs where we are dismantled by teams that are designed to go the distance.  Winning a SB with this business model would take an amount of talent we haven't been lucky enough to assemble. 

[Shake n Blake]

(10-25-2017, 10:11 AM)Go Cards Wrote: Many supported a lot of those moves claiming the price was not right.

They say MB is cheap but they seem to support that when making such claims

I was one of those, and my mind hasn't changed. Our inactivity in FA to replace any of those guys is the problem, IMO.

Letting Marvin Jones and Sanu walk still looks good even in hindsight. Those guys aren't living up to their paydays.

Letting Zeitler and Whit was fine, but we did absolutely nothing to replace them. 

(10-25-2017, 10:25 AM)Nately120 Wrote: There is talent on this team, to be sure.  I see us as being the Pittsburgh Pirates of the NFL:  We have a business model that caps our level of success, but occasionally enough things go right that we make it into the playoffs where we are dismantled by teams that are designed to go the distance.  Winning a SB with this business model would take an amount of talent we haven't been lucky enough to assemble. 

[THE PISTONS]

(10-25-2017, 01:32 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I was one of those, and my mind hasn't changed. Our inactivity in FA to replace any of those guys is the problem, IMO.

Letting Marvin Jones and Sanu walk still looks good even in hindsight. Those guys aren't living up to their paydays.

Letting Zeitler and Whit was fine, but we did absolutely nothing to replace them. 

Yeah and there were replacements out there.

re: Jones - Going to a different system can make a player look bad. But, here we know what he was.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-25-2017, 01:32 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I was one of those, and my mind hasn't changed. Our inactivity in FA to replace any of those guys is the problem, IMO.

Letting Marvin Jones and Sanu walk still looks good even in hindsight. Those guys aren't living up to their paydays.

Letting Zeitler and Whit was fine, but we did absolutely nothing to replace them. 

Sad part is there were/are still some cheaper veteran options to pursue to try to fix the OL, but this organization felt it best to ride or die with the draft picks they have that have been underperforming since drafted.

Case in point:
LT - Branden Albert is still available to be signed after being released from the Jags for wanting to unretire in mid-August. He could have been brought in immediately and had a few weeks to ramp up. Heck, he could have even been used as a backup OT to start the season to see how Ogbuehi would do then take over as the starter if/when Ogbuehi sucked.
C - John Sullivan was picked up by the Rams for just about $1 mill (!!!!) and has been a top 10 C. With Bodine entering a contract year, the coaches thought it better to re-sign TJ Johnson instead who has never been more than mediocre. I think Sullivan could/would have come here for $1.5 mill to push Bodine or more likely just take his job outright.
Tretter also wasn't that expensive ($5.5 mill a year) and I expect he would have signed with the Bengals over the Browns if given the same deal.

Never any desire/urgency to win now. Always about grooming for the next few years.
I hope this organization sees the mistake they made sticking by three bad OL on rookie contracts just because they are too stubborn to admit the picks sucked.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-25-2017, 02:08 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Sad part is there were/are still some cheaper veteran options to pursue to try to fix the OL, but this organization felt it best to ride or die with the draft picks they have that have been underperforming since drafted.

Case in point:
LT - Branden Albert is still available to be signed after being released from the Jags for wanting to unretire in mid-August. He could have been brought in immediately and had a few weeks to ramp up. Heck, he could have even been used as a backup OT to start the season to see how Ogbuehi would do then take over as the starter if/when Ogbuehi sucked.
C - John Sullivan was picked up by the Rams for just about $1 mill (!!!!) and has been a top 10 C. With Bodine entering a contract year, the coaches thought it better to re-sign TJ Johnson instead who has never been more than mediocre. I think Sullivan could/would have come here for $1.5 mill to push Bodine or more likely just take his job outright.
Tretter also wasn't that expensive ($5.5 mill a year) and I expect he would have signed with the Bengals over the Browns if given the same deal.

Never any desire/urgency to win now. Always about grooming for the next few years.
I hope this organization sees the mistake they made sticking by three bad OL on rookie contracts just because they are too stubborn to admit the picks sucked.

Plus...we have cap space!!!

I don't think there is ever any learning from mistakes here. They'll sacrifice Marvin and move on blaming him for everything.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-25-2017, 01:48 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yeah and there were replacements out there.

re: Jones - Going to a different system can make a player look bad. But, here we know what he was.

A receiver who rarely went deep (despite his reputation), had a major injury that caused him to miss an entire season and was good for around 750 yards and 5-6 TD's? 5 years and $40 million is way too much for a guy like that. MLJ currently has the 22nd highest salary at his position. Should we have paid him #1 money for #2 production? 

We really could've done a better job replacing him though. Instead of triple dipping in the next 2 drafts (Boyd, Ross, Malone), why not sign a veteran free agent like Brandon Marshall (2 years, $11 million) or Terrelle Pryor (1 year, $6 million)? Those 2 would've made perfect stop gaps until Ross was ready.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-25-2017, 02:10 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Plus...we have cap space!!!

I don't think there is ever any learning from mistakes here. They'll sacrifice Marvin and move on blaming him for everything.

You and I both know that cap space is now reserved for Dunlap and/or Atkins extensions in 2018.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-25-2017, 02:08 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Sad part is there were/are still some cheaper veteran options to pursue to try to fix the OL, but this organization felt it best to ride or die with the draft picks they have that have been underperforming since drafted.

Case in point:
LT - Branden Albert is still available to be signed after being released from the Jags for wanting to unretire in mid-August. He could have been brought in immediately and had a few weeks to ramp up. Heck, he could have even been used as a backup OT to start the season to see how Ogbuehi would do then take over as the starter if/when Ogbuehi sucked.
C - John Sullivan was picked up by the Rams for just about $1 mill (!!!!) and has been a top 10 C. With Bodine entering a contract year, the coaches thought it better to re-sign TJ Johnson instead who has never been more than mediocre. I think Sullivan could/would have come here for $1.5 mill to push Bodine or more likely just take his job outright.
Tretter also wasn't that expensive ($5.5 mill a year) and I expect he would have signed with the Bengals over the Browns if given the same deal.

Never any desire/urgency to win now. Always about grooming for the next few years.
I hope this organization sees the mistake they made sticking by three bad OL on rookie contracts just because they are too stubborn to admit the picks sucked.

It made no sense to "ride or die" with those guys after they sunk our season last year. If Mike Brown weren't such a turd, I'd say that maybe he was forcing the staff to sink or swim with the guys they wanted to draft. If they sink (they are), then guys lose their jobs. But this theory is giving Mike too much credit.

[Hoofhearted]

(10-25-2017, 02:15 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: A receiver who rarely went deep (despite his reputation), had a major injury that caused him to miss an entire season and was good for around 750 yards and 5-6 TD's? 5 years and $40 million is way too much for a guy like that. MLJ currently has the 22nd highest salary at his position. Should we have paid him #1 money for #2 production? 

We really could've done a better job replacing him though. Instead of triple dipping in the next 2 drafts (Boyd, Ross, Malone), why not sign a veteran free agent like Brandon Marshall (2 years, $11 million) or Terrelle Pryor (1 year, $6 million)? Those 2 would've made perfect stop gaps until Ross was ready.

The very same reason they haven't (and probably won't) fire Marvin Lewis: continuity.

And the whole Coles fiasco a number of years ago hasn't left MB memory banks, I am sure.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-25-2017, 10:11 AM)Go Cards Wrote: Many supported a lot of those moves claiming the price was not right.

They say MB is cheap but they seem to support that when making such claims

I love the "you can't pay that much for linemen", while we simultaneously overpay a CB, draft 23 more, and draft 135 WRs.  All the CBs and WRs in the world aren't going to do you much good when your line can't even hold blocks long enough to let a draw play develop.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-10-2017, 05:57 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I heard all offseason people saying we got better because we drafted 2 new shiny skill-players in Ross and Mixon. I hear we  made the playoffs 5 out of 6 years.

Well, most of our core left and we haven't replaced them with quality players.

Our 2 best offensive lineman left. We replaced them with 2 inferior players. Fact: 4 out of our 5 starting lineman are backups on most playoff teams.

We've done a decent job replacing our WR's that left...so I won't harp on the Sanu and Jones losses.

Reggie Nelson left. Replaced with a run stuffing safety who isn't great against the pass at this point. This has caused Iloka to be less effective.

Peko left. Replaced with Billings who just isn't as good. Maybe one day he will be good, but not now.

It was VERY EASY to see this coming. Most of the people on this message board think the young guys that the Bengals draft are going to step in and be Superstars. That just isn't the case. You're getting sold on useless PR.

And to think that some people on these boards actually think the Bengals have some great strategy that other teams are following. There is no model. The model is to replace guys that want a lot of money with unproven or young guys who cost less...or washed up free agents on 1 year deals. Then, draft a guy who won't play much Year 1 who will replace a veteran who costs a lot in 2-3 years. Rinse. Repeat.

We had a Top 5 roster in the NFL for a season or two...and instead of addressing a couple of the weaknesses on those rosters...they saved money looking at this season. HOW IS THAT WORKING OUT?

Hey atleast the Bengals have cap space to keep this group together!

....and wouldn't be on some teams' practice squads.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-25-2017, 02:21 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: The very same reason they haven't (and probably won't) fire Marvin Lewis: continuity.

And the whole Coles fiasco a number of years ago hasn't left MB memory banks, I am sure.

So Mike Brown's own dumb FA signing has scared him into thinking FA is evil forever. Sounds about right.

[Bengal Dude]

(10-25-2017, 02:31 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: So Mike Brown's own dumb FA signing has scared him into thinking FA is evil forever. Sounds about right.

Sadly, Hobsy has even written this when justifying our non-existence in free agency. Coles and Antonio Bryant left him sour on handing our big contracts to FAs.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-25-2017, 02:20 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: It made no sense to "ride or die" with those guys after they sunk our season last year. If Mike Brown weren't such a turd, I'd say that maybe he was forcing the staff to sink or swim with the guys they wanted to draft. If they sink (they are), then guys lose their jobs. But this theory is giving Mike too much credit.

Honestly, the fans care about winning more than the Bengals. It's obvious.

The Bengals are a business that's primary objective is wealth of shareholders...like a normal business. They want to win, but it's a secondary concern.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-25-2017, 02:31 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: So Mike Brown's own dumb FA signing has scared him into thinking FA is evil forever. Sounds about right.

So I think the guy meant Bryant...but that was a self-inflicted wound. You give the guy a physical and see if he passes.

Our medical staff used to be horrible.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-25-2017, 03:53 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: Sadly, Hobsy has even written this when justifying our non-existence in free agency. Coles and Antonio Bryant left him sour on handing our big contracts to FAs.

(10-25-2017, 04:05 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: So I think the guy meant Bryant...but that was a self-inflicted wound. You give the guy a physical and see if he passes.

Our medical staff used to be horrible.

Coles was old and Bryant has coming off a serious injury. If Mikey Boy had any common sense, he'd realize that he just goofed on those. Blame the decison maker, not the decision.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-25-2017, 08:32 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Coles was old and Bryant has coming off a serious injury. If Mikey Boy had any common sense, he'd realize that he just goofed on those. Blame the decison maker, not the decision.

Coles was 32 and you could see he was losing his speed. The year before with the Jets he was targeted 120 times and had only 70 receptions for 850 yards.

Houshmandzadeh had 92 receptions and 904 yards the season before for us. Plus, you know he worked in the offense.

A day after losing Houshmandzadeh we signed Coles to a 4 year $28 million deal. Housh signed with Seattle for 5 years and $40 million.

Housh was still good. Coles was at the end of his career.

I will say the Bengals do spend money on wide receivers. Too bad they don't have the same initiative with offensive line. 

[masonbengals fan]

(10-25-2017, 03:59 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Honestly, the fans care about winning more than the Bengals. It's obvious.

The Bengals are a business that's primary objective is wealth of shareholders...like a normal business. They want to win, but it's a secondary concern.

As the years go by I believe this more & more.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-25-2017, 09:42 PM)masonbengals fan Wrote: As the years go by I believe this more & more.

It's their sole business. Most of the other owners made their millions in other industries and view their sports teams as kind of a rich persons prestige club.

It is the Bengals owners livelihood.

I'm sure that every owner in the league wants to win...but they all invest their resources to varying degrees.

Eventually we'll win a playoff game. But is it really a win? In the 26 years we haven't won a playoff game...some 22+ teams have appeared in a Super Bowl.

The system is built for all teams to win.