So the big elephant in the room....

[*SHRacerX*]

(09-13-2017, 09:14 AM)Wyche Wrote: Thing is, we weren't left with Zamp, we chose to promote him......the Mike Clown way.  There absolutely should have been someone brought in from outside the staff to fill that role.

Hindsight being 20/20, this is an absolute truth.  Last year, the way teams seemed to know what was happening before it did...I thought he would self-scout and change his ways.  Wrong.  

It is just unbelievable that was the best he could come up with over the entire offseason.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(09-13-2017, 10:05 AM)Daddy-O Wrote: Not only quit but I seriously think he makes these types of decisions so the bleeding doesn't get any worse.  Rather than showing the team you are trying to win he'd prefer to lose by 20 rather than potentially giving up another short field and score to lose by 27.  I mean 20-0 or 27-0 doesn't really matter but it sure seems as it does to Marvie.

I thought of that as well.  How is losing 27-0 worse than 20-0?  It isn't.  Marv should be absolutely ashamed and if we see that same stupid crap Thursday, he and Zampese should be shown the door. 

[Shake n Blake]

(09-13-2017, 11:26 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Every coach has their down-falls, and we don't know the entire context of what he has to deal with (does Mike Brown give him full responsibility to win, etc)). I am not convinced he would get another shot after these last few years, but when he was killing it with his playoff appearances? I believe he would of almost certainly got another shot had we fired him after the Steelers debacle. I mean you said it yourself; he can build a winner and win, but he just cannot get over the proverbial hump.  

I think Marv's ability to "build a winner" is a bit overstated. He's a .500 coach. People praise the 5 straight playoff appearances and forget that he also coached these teams:

2003: 8-8
2004: 8-8
2006: 8-8
2007: 7-9
2008: 4-11-1
2010: 4-12
2016: 6-9-1


2017 is also shaping up to be a bad year. Marv inherited much of the talent from the 1st core. Chad Johnson, TJ Houshmandzadeh, Rudi Johnson, Willie Anderson, Rich Braham, Levi Jones, Justin Smith, Brian Simmons, etc. He also inherited the #1 overall pick, where Palmer was a no-brainer. So that entire core was inherited. Most agree that he underachieved with that group, and ultimately it fell apart when guys got paid.

Seeing how Duke Tobin was there when all those players were drafted, maybe we're giving the wrong man credit for building 2 "winners"? Especially when Marv wasn't even there when the 1st core was drafted?

[Shake n Blake]

(09-13-2017, 01:05 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I thought of that as well.  How is losing 27-0 worse than 20-0?  It isn't.  Marv should be absolutely ashamed and if we see that same stupid crap Thursday, he and Zampese should be shown the door. 

This crossed my mind as well. He was playing to make the final result not look as bad. How else do you explain punting while down 20 with 10 minutes left? Even Marv homers won't touch that one. It's a loser's mentality from a guy more worried about protecting his job than giving the team a shot at a W.

[Bengalindayton]

My two biggest fears are, us extending marvin at the end of the season, or promoting from within which seems to be are way of doing things and that could lead us to either Pauly, zampese, or any other of the position coaches. That would be awful

[Hoofhearted]

(09-13-2017, 01:08 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I think Marv's ability to "build a winner" is a bit overstated. He's a .500 coach. People praise the 5 straight playoff appearances and forget that he also coached these teams:

2003: 8-8
2004: 8-8
2006: 8-8
2007: 7-9
2008: 4-11-1
2010: 4-12
2016: 6-9-1


2017 is also shaping up to be a bad year. Marv inherited much of the talent from the 1st core. Chad Johnson, TJ Houshmandzadeh, Rudi Johnson, Willie Anderson, Rich Braham, Levi Jones, Justin Smith, Brian Simmons, etc. He also inherited the #1 overall pick, where Palmer was a no-brainer. So that entire core was inherited. Most agree that he underachieved with that group, and ultimately it fell apart when guys got paid.

Seeing how Duke Tobin was there when all those players were drafted, maybe we're giving the wrong man credit for building 2 "winners"? Especially when Marv wasn't even there when the 1st core was drafted?

yeah, probably. but we're trying to determine if Marv "belongs", right? (belongs as a head coach in the NFL)

Would you say Harbuagh is a better coach than Marv? I would say so; he's won a Super bowl, right? Well, he also has a .590 win %; Ron Riviera, Jason Garret, Jim Caldwell, Bill O'brien and Mike Zimmer also have roughly .500 records albeit most don't have time in service Marv does. Those are just a few I checked into. 

Ron has had 4 losing seasons so far in his career.
Harbaugh has had two .500 season and one losing season.
Garret had three .500 season and one losing one.
Caldwell had two losing seasons
Zimmer had a losing season and a .500 season so far
O'brien is steady eddy at 9-7 every year. 

Guess point is, give quite a bit of these coaches the length of leash Marv has had, I am pretty sure they will fall into a clunker or two. Clearly Marv isn't as good as most of these guys, but they are also prone to being bad from time to time. 

And the who deserves credit for the building of  the two winners is moot IMO. It's something that's done by the entire staff, not just Tobin. So they all deserve similar credit and/or blame. 

[*SHRacerX*]

(09-13-2017, 01:15 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: This crossed my mind as well. He was playing to make the final result not look as bad. How else do you explain punting while down 20 with 10 minutes left? Even Marv homers won't touch that one. It's a loser's mentality from a guy more worried about protecting his job than giving the team a shot at a W.

I remember thinking, ok, here we go...they will spread them out with 5 WRs and try to air it out.  Even if it didn't win the game, it would have showed some creativity, some effort....instead, we got a white flag. 

Marv has long been a conservative guy that isn't good at having his guys breathing fire in a big game, but I always wanted to give him a chance to win one because he has done a lot for this franchise.  This ended him for me.  If guys like Herm Edwards and Lovie Smith lost their jobs because they killed offenses, it is time for Marvin to join their ranks.  

The question becomes:  Who replaces him?  If you go Guenther or Simmons, is there enough change?

[*SHRacerX*]

(09-13-2017, 02:22 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: yeah, probably. but we're trying to determine if Marv "belongs", right? (belongs as a head coach in the NFL)

Would you say Harbuagh is a better coach than Marv? I would say so; he's won a Super bowl, right? Well, he also has a .590 win %; Ron Riviera, Jason Garret, Jim Caldwell, Bill O'brien and Mike Zimmer also have roughly .500 records albeit most don't have time in service Marv does. Those are just a few I checked into. 

Ron has had 4 losing seasons so far in his career.
Harbaugh has had two .500 season and one losing season.
Garret had three .500 season and one losing one.
Caldwell had two losing seasons
Zimmer had a losing season and a .500 season so far
O'brien is steady eddy at 9-7 every year. 

Guess point is, give quite a bit of these coaches the length of leash Marv has had, I am pretty sure they will fall into a clunker or two. Clearly Marv isn't as good as most of these guys, but they are also prone to being bad from time to time. 

And the who deserves credit for the building of  the two winners is moot IMO. It's something that's done by the entire staff, not just Tobin. So they all deserve similar credit and/or blame. 

I know he is a complete kook, but I would take Jim Harbaugh.  I think he actually WOULD leave Michigan for the chance to coach in the NFL again and in a division against his brother.  

I absolutely love that guy as a coach.  Crazy, yes, but an amazing coach. 

[*Nately120*]

(09-13-2017, 01:02 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Hindsight being 20/20, this is an absolute truth.  Last year, the way teams seemed to know what was happening before it did...I thought he would self-scout and change his ways.  Wrong.  

It is just unbelievable that was the best he could come up with over the entire offseason.  

Is this really hindsight?  There was absolutely nothing to indicate Zampese had the volition nor acumen to be a legit NFL OC.  The guy had never been an OC before, wasn't asked to be an OC by other NFL teams, and was passed over by Mike Brown when we went with Gruden and Hue.

In foresight making Zampese the OC was a bad move.

(09-13-2017, 03:27 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I know he is a complete kook, but I would take Jim Harbaugh.  I think he actually WOULD leave Michigan for the chance to coach in the NFL again and in a division against his brother.  

I absolutely love that guy as a coach.  Crazy, yes, but an amazing coach. 

Ha, the idea of Mike Brown hiring a HC that has an actual pulse much less a personality as wacky as his is a larf!

[Bengal Dude]

(09-13-2017, 03:26 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I remember thinking, ok, here we go...they will spread them out with 5 WRs and try to air it out.  Even if it didn't win the game, it would have showed some creativity, some effort....instead, we got a white flag. 

Marv has long been a conservative guy that isn't good at having his guys breathing fire in a big game, but I always wanted to give him a chance to win one because he has done a lot for this franchise.  This ended him for me.  If guys like Herm Edwards and Lovie Smith lost their jobs because they killed offenses, it is time for Marvin to join their ranks.  

The question becomes:  Who replaces him?  If you go Guenther or Simmons, is there enough change?

Simmons and Guenther are interesting candidates.

Simmons comes off as a stubborn guy during the season as we've seen little change in our ST if they're struggling. However, he'll talk about making changes in the offseason and then we actually see changes. New coverage players will be inserted and suddenly our ST units look better.

I truly can't figure out Guenther. People in the FO love him, so I'm preparing myself for the inevitable promotion. Yet he's called players out who he thought we underachieving. He talked about making changes if necessary before Marvin stepped in and said he shouldn't say things like that. Marvin did bring him in before the 05 season and he started off under Bresnehan. There were also the rumors that the reason some of the defensive assistants left after the 2015 season was because they didn't get along with Guenther. Not sure if that's true, but it's not good if it's true.

[*SHRacerX*]

(09-13-2017, 03:46 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Is this really hindsight?  There was absolutely nothing to indicate Zampese had the volition nor acumen to be a legit NFL OC.  The guy had never been an OC before, wasn't asked to be an OC by other NFL teams, and was passed over by Mike Brown when we went with Gruden and Hue.

In foresight making Zampese the OC was a bad move.



Ha, the idea of Mike Brown hiring a HC that has an actual pulse much less a personality as wacky as his is a larf!

I know it was his father, but some people gave Wyche the nickname "Wicky Wacky".  

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-13-2017, 01:15 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: This crossed my mind as well. He was playing to make the final result not look as bad. How else do you explain punting while down 20 with 10 minutes left? Even Marv homers won't touch that one. It's a loser's mentality from a guy more worried about protecting his job than giving the team a shot at a W.

LOL...wrong. One did.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-13-2017, 03:26 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I remember thinking, ok, here we go...they will spread them out with 5 WRs and try to air it out.  Even if it didn't win the game, it would have showed some creativity, some effort....instead, we got a white flag. 

Marv has long been a conservative guy that isn't good at having his guys breathing fire in a big game, but I always wanted to give him a chance to win one because he has done a lot for this franchise.  This ended him for me.  If guys like Herm Edwards and Lovie Smith lost their jobs because they killed offenses, it is time for Marvin to join their ranks.  

The question becomes:  Who replaces him?  If you go Guenther or Simmons, is there enough change?

No....no there isn't. It needs be a TOTAL housecleaning.  Shitcan Piano Man first.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-13-2017, 03:46 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Is this really hindsight?  There was absolutely nothing to indicate Zampese had the volition nor acumen to be a legit NFL OC.  The guy had never been an OC before, wasn't asked to be an OC by other NFL teams, and was passed over by Mike Brown when we went with Gruden and Hue.

In foresight making Zampese the OC was a bad move.



Ha, the idea of Mike Brown hiring a HC that has an actual pulse much less a personality as wacky as his is a larf!

Yeah....I kinda feel like it was foresight too. I never wanted him at QB coach....let alone OC.  KZ was among the Tenured Bums in Mediocre Marv's band I always referred to.  I've been giving him shit since the motherboard.  I gave him a shot last year...blamed the o line mostly....but damn bro...you've had a year to scheme around those turds and that's the best you got?

That sumbitch better go steal Mr. Coach Clines' playbook tonight!

[Shake n Blake]

(09-13-2017, 02:22 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: yeah, probably. but we're trying to determine if Marv "belongs", right? (belongs as a head coach in the NFL)

Would you say Harbuagh is a better coach than Marv? I would say so; he's won a Super bowl, right? Well, he also has a .590 win %; Ron Riviera, Jason Garret, Jim Caldwell, Bill O'brien and Mike Zimmer also have roughly .500 records albeit most don't have time in service Marv does. Those are just a few I checked into. 

Ron has had 4 losing seasons so far in his career.
Harbaugh has had two .500 season and one losing season.
Garret had three .500 season and one losing one.
Caldwell had two losing seasons
Zimmer had a losing season and a .500 season so far
O'brien is steady eddy at 9-7 every year. 

Guess point is, give quite a bit of these coaches the length of leash Marv has had, I am pretty sure they will fall into a clunker or two. Clearly Marv isn't as good as most of these guys, but they are also prone to being bad from time to time. 

And the who deserves credit for the building of  the two winners is moot IMO. It's something that's done by the entire staff, not just Tobin. So they all deserve similar credit and/or blame. 

I'm not really big on O'Brien, Garrett or Zimmer personally. As for the other guys, it's not hard to figure out. Regular season mediocrity becomes more acceptable when you achieved the ultimate goal or you've come close. John Harbaugh has a ring (fyi, .590 comes out to almost 1.5 more wins per season, so it's a bigger difference than you think). Riviera and Caldwell have taken teams to the biggest stage there is.

Give these coaches less length than Marv and they also ran into super bowls. Marv has had all the leash in the world and has only managed to run into a wall. Or a screen door. Or a stop sign.

And no, who built the team is not moot. Marv didn't build the first team, you'll admit that, correct? Now if Tobin got here at the end of the 90's and immediately started collecting talent without Marv, why are you stretching to give him credit for this last group of talent?  Would it not make more sense that the builder of the 1st core was most responsible for also building the 2nd? Or do we just want to give Marv credit for something that can't be proven because he can't stand on what can?

(09-13-2017, 03:26 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: The question becomes:  Who replaces him?  If you go Guenther or Simmons, is there enough change?

Guenther would be the obvious in house candidate, but I'd definutely clean house on offense, and I'd rather keep Guenther right where he's at and hire a hot name Offensive Coordinator. 

(09-13-2017, 03:27 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I know he is a complete kook, but I would take Jim Harbaugh.  I think he actually WOULD leave Michigan for the chance to coach in the NFL again and in a division against his brother.  

I absolutely love that guy as a coach.  Crazy, yes, but an amazing coach. 

I believe he was talking about John Harbaugh, but I love both the brothers. They're great coaches.

(09-13-2017, 07:12 PM)Wyche Wrote: LOL...wrong. One did.

I underestimated them. Clearly.

[Hammerstripes]

(09-12-2017, 11:35 PM)impactplaya Wrote: It's quite evident Andy Dalton and Ken Zampese just are not a good combination.
I can't exactly pin point in terms of all the intracies and schematics of the offense I will leave that to the smarter posters but my eyes tell me this not a good marriage
What got me thinking was Hue Jackson vs the Steelers last week.
DeShon Kizer 1st NFL start. Very average WR/TE core.
Yet they score 18 points vs a defense that the Bengals struggle with.
Yet I look at the Bengals output Sunday
0 pts
Red zone issues last year red zone issues game 1.
Hmmm common thread....Ken Zampese.
When Hue was OC here Dalton was automatic in the red zone
Awesome TD to Int ratio.
Sunday Dalton throws a pass he would not throw 2 years ago.
I could go on and on .but I will let the smarter posters help full in my thoughts

It's quite simple:

Look at the Browns offensive line.  It doesn't matter who your skill position guys are if you can't protect the QB.  I don't see Zampese as the problem (although he very well could be) since we can't do anything in pass protection 

[BonnieBengal]

(09-13-2017, 06:45 AM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: Keep in mind Zampese spent a majority of his assistant days under Bob Bratkowski, that's like 7 years of bad tutelage under Bob. I'm afraid what we are seeing is basically Bratkowski 2.0.

Plus Bratkowski works for us, right?  I hope Zampese not getting any pointers from old Bob.  Maybe Bratkowski is our shadow OC.

[yellowxdiscipline]

(09-14-2017, 01:27 AM)BonnieBengal Wrote: Plus Bratkowski works for us, right?  I hope Zampese not getting any pointers from old Bob.  Maybe Bratkowski is our shadow OC.

He's still employed here? I thought the Titans stole him from us as a position coach. Jesus if true then he's more than likely got his hands on the offense in some way.

[Bengalbug]

(09-13-2017, 09:27 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Marv is REALLY tough to gauge anymore. I believe his message is just stale and ignored anymore. He's not one of the worst HC out there today tho. He's certainly not the best, but I believe he would get another gig.

Gig or giggle?

[HarleyDog]

(09-14-2017, 06:27 AM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: He's still employed here? I thought the Titans stole him from us as a position coach. Jesus if true then he's more than likely got his hands on the offense in some way.

He's no longer with Titans but I don't think he works for us either. Probably head coach of a winless peewee team. Wait....