So the big elephant in the room....

[Hoofhearted]

(09-13-2017, 09:57 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'm not really big on O'Brien, Garrett or Zimmer personally. As for the other guys, it's not hard to figure out. Regular season mediocrity becomes more acceptable when you achieved the ultimate goal or you've come close. John Harbaugh has a ring (fyi, .590 comes out to almost 1.5 more wins per season, so it's a bigger difference than you think). Riviera and Caldwell have taken teams to the biggest stage there is.

Give these coaches less length than Marv and they also ran into super bowls. Marv has had all the leash in the world and has only managed to run into a wall. Or a screen door. Or a stop sign.

And no, who built the team is not moot. Marv didn't build the first team, you'll admit that, correct? Now if Tobin got here at the end of the 90's and immediately started collecting talent without Marv, why are you stretching to give him credit for this last group of talent?  Would it not make more sense that the builder of the 1st core was most responsible for also building the 2nd? Or do we just want to give Marv credit for something that can't be proven because he can't stand on what can?

Me either; just trying to provide some discussion around the matter. I am not even a big ML fan, but thought it would be good to go over this. I like O'brien more than the others. I was just trying to provide some context around other coaches. it's quite clear Marv doesn't belong amongst the upper echelon of Head Coaches. He probably sits right below average (18-22, something like that). And yeah, get that = 1.5 more wins a year, but saying that Marv can coach in the NFL and win some games. Is he the best? F*** no!! lol Like I have stated before, his message has to be stale in the locker room. And worst yet, he's not very adaptive. This is probably what keeps him from being a much better coach. 

Yeah, he didn't "build" that first team. But I certainly seeing him having a hand in the getting of UDFA like Tez & Vinnie Rey. Tobin was hired 99, but has been in his current role since 02. In 02, we went 2-14. In 2003, of course, Marv was hired and the drafts and team started to turn it around. Is it a coincidence that since those two worked together that they started drafting better? Maybe they compliment each other really well? Tobin gives Marv his types of players and Marv molds them? I think it's almost certainly a coordinated effort.

[BonnieBengal]

(09-14-2017, 06:27 AM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: He's still employed here? I thought the Titans stole him from us as a position coach. Jesus if true then he's more than likely got his hands on the offense in some way.

Oh OK I didn't know that.  I remember the Bengals had employed him in some way and I thought he was still there.

[bengalguy71]

(09-13-2017, 09:14 AM)Wyche Wrote: Thing is, we weren't left with Zamp, we chose to promote him......the Mike Clown way.  There absolutely should have been someone brought in from outside the staff to fill that role.

   Oh come on WW, surely Marvin Lewis is to blame.  MB is just the owner.  He gives Lewis the good players and it's Lewis's job to win.  MB is doing the best he can!!  

[*PhilHos*]

(09-13-2017, 11:18 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: It's quite simple:

Look at the Browns offensive line.  It doesn't matter who your skill position guys are if you can't protect the QB.  I don't see Zampese as the problem (although he very well could be) since we can't do anything in pass protection 

Except that good-to-great OCs would scheme around poor offensive line production. There's only so much an OC could do, true, but it's like Zampese isn't even trying. It's like he's throwing shit against the wall and seeing what sticks.

[Shake n Blake]

(09-14-2017, 09:06 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Me either; just trying to provide some discussion around the matter. I am not even a big ML fan, but thought it would be good to go over this. I like O'brien more than the others. I was just trying to provide some context around other coaches. it's quite clear Marv doesn't belong amongst the upper echelon of Head Coaches. He probably sits right below average (18-22, something like that). And yeah, get that = 1.5 more wins a year, but saying that Marv can coach in the NFL and win some games. Is he the best? F*** no!! lol Like I have stated before, his message has to be stale in the locker room. And worst yet, he's not very adaptive. This is probably what keeps him from being a much better coach. 

Yeah, he didn't "build" that first team. But I certainly seeing him having a hand in the getting of UDFA like Tez & Vinnie Rey. Tobin was hired 99, but has been in his current role since 02. In 02, we went 2-14. In 2003, of course, Marv was hired and the drafts and team started to turn it around. Is it a coincidence that since those two worked together that they started drafting better? Maybe they compliment each other really well? Tobin gives Marv his types of players and Marv molds them? I think it's almost certainly a coordinated effort.

I agree with much of what you're saying here, but I think it's unfair to pin that 2-14 record on Tobin. He was responsible for the influx of talent, but (a) that talent was still very young and raw in 2002 and (b) Lebeau was an awful head coach. Marvin was able to get much more out of that core, but (hate repeating myself) he didn't draft them. I think Marvin is a competent x's and o's guy. Better than we've seen since Wyche, but not elite. Essentially, I'd grade him like this:

x's and o's - B
clutch or toughness/mentality - F
Eye for talent - D+

You have to remember, Marvin was known for defense and we struggled for years there. His first 2 d coordinators were pretty awful. Until he found Burfict (I do tend to give him credit for that one, as he chased Tez pretty hard) he struggled to find LBs (a spot where I think he had the most input, considering his background and passion for that postion - the position he played and coached). 

And ultimately it's Tobin that is recommending pretty much every player we draft. That's his job. Marv isn't going around scouting 120+ schools year round. It's physically and mentally impossible for him to do that. 99% of the players Marv (or anyone else) looks at, were probably recommended first by Tobin. In that way, he most certainly has the biggest influence on who we take. Marvin probably has the biggest influence on which of Tobin's guys that they take, but they're probably all Tobin's recommendations. 

So yeah I agree that it's a "coordinated effort", but I think Tobin has by far the most influence on which players we take. And fwiw, I don't think the drafts suddenly got better when Marv was hired. That 2001 draft was probably the best in team history. Justin Smith, Chad Johnson, Rudi Johnson and TJ Houshmandzadeh? 

[Housh]

(09-12-2017, 11:42 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I hear ya,

But I don't think it's just Dalton and Zampese. I mean I don't believe Zampese and __________ any QB would be a good fit. Zampese is just not an NFL level OC.

Zampese is in way over his head ! Think deer in the headlights

Thank you

The way the OP put it it is a 50/50 thing and it simply was not

Andy had most his success when he'd go hurry up and call his own plays. I seriously began to think Zampese was a PURPOSELY killing drives. I remember one game where we couldn't get ANY offense going so the last drive of the half Dalton says f*** it and runs hurry up offense and calls his own plays. He connected in like 2 or 3 seam routes. This was very noticable to me because Zamp basically NEVER calls seam routes. So we drive down the field off about 3 great no huddle Andy plays. So now we're in the redzone and I guess Zamp was embarrassed his QB shitted in his playmaking because we called 3 straight runs and it effectively killed the drive and we had to punt


I made a thread about it last year. I will look for it but I called Zamp an egomaniac