Can We Win With Our Small Scouting Department?

[McC]

Not gonna read through the whole thread, which was obviously intended as another woe is us thread.

The answer is yes we can. We can because we have, and without bad luck/bad coaching and/or stupidity/lack of discipline/butter fingers, we would have those elusive playoff wins.

Not sure we would ever have kept the Patriots out of the SB but no one else really has either, no matter how many legions of scouts they may have.

[t3r3e3]

(03-03-2019, 07:38 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yep. It's as simple as that.

We had 2 really great drafts with Dalton/Green/Boling and Atkins/Dunlap...but since then our drafting hasn't been great.

I'd love to see the Bengals take a more analytical approach.

The Patriots, Steelers, Ravens, etc have 2 to 3 times as many scouts. We have to ask ourselves if our player personnel team is 2 to 3 times as smart as them? If not, we need to change our practices.

The answer is: No. Mike and Family are cheapskates compared to the ownership/FO’s for each of those teams. Neither of those three teams employ most/all of ownership’s family members in key front office positions. That said, Mike’s goal seems to be a competitive, 60-65th percentile team that makes the Playoffs, sells more tickets, and provides employment for the kids/grandkids. The Pats/Steelers/Ravens: Lombardi or bust.

[Sled21]

The article is outdated and those yelling about not having a huge scouting dept. are not keeping up. Teams are contracting it out now, there are professional scouting agencies that the team can buy the report and tell them everything they need to know. That way, they can go look at the candidates they are really looking at, and weed out the rest.

[t3r3e3]

(03-03-2019, 08:32 PM)McC Wrote: Not gonna read through the whole thread, which was obviously intended as another woe is us thread.

The answer is yes we can. We can because we have, and without bad luck/bad coaching and/or stupidity/lack of discipline/butter fingers, we would have those elusive playoff wins.

Not sure we would ever have kept the Patriots out of the SB but no one else really has either, no matter how many legions of scouts they may have.

Other AFC teams have won multiple titles in the Brady/Belichick era. It’s possible to represent the AFC and win. That said, ownership has to have winning titles as the first and only goal. Mike Brown will never have this sole goal. Yearly profitability and family employment come first. Mike’s record proves this.

[t3r3e3]

(03-03-2019, 08:39 PM)Sled21 Wrote: The article is outdated and those yelling about not having a huge scouting dept. are not keeping up. Teams are contracting it out now, there are professional scouting agencies that the team can buy the report and tell them everything they need to know. That way, they can go look at the candidates they are really looking at, and weed out the rest.

If so, then why do the most successful teams in the AFC/NFC have scouting depts and front offices that dwarf the Bengals mom and pop operation? Hint: Those teams want every possible advantage they can get.

[Sled21]

(03-03-2019, 08:42 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: If so, then why do the most successful teams in the AFC/NFC have scouting depts and front offices that dwarf the Bengals mom and pop operation?  Hint:  Those teams want every possible advantage they can get.

Hint, those teams are getting fewer and fewer, as more move to contracting it out.....

[t3r3e3]

(03-03-2019, 08:45 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Hint, those teams are getting fewer and fewer, as more move to contracting it out.....

Then why does the Bengals scouting strategy continue to underwhelm? The last few drafts have been spotty. Not trying to argue, just pointing out that the team would do well to look around the league and realize Mike’s antiquated views do not translate to real success.

[SunsetBengal]

(03-03-2019, 09:55 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: Then why does the Bengals scouting strategy continue to underwhelm?  The last few drafts have been spotty.  Not trying to argue, just pointing out that the team would do well to look around the league and realize Mike’s antiquated views do not translate to real success.

If you haven't noticed, the team is/has done many things out of the ordinary to the Mike Brown era of leadership, in the past year or so.  Just recently, the coaching staff is now larger than it was in previous years, even my 71 year old dad has noticed.  He said "Mike Brown now wants to spend some money?", I said, "I think that Katie is calling the shots, now".  He thought about it for a moment, and then nodded in agreement.

[THE PISTONS]

(03-03-2019, 08:45 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Hint, those teams are getting fewer and fewer, as more move to contracting it out.....

Not accurate at all for the AFC North. The Ravens, Browns, and Steelers have all INCREASED in their Player Personnel Depts over the last couple years.

Show me a team that has under 10 people in their Player Personnel Dept.

Here are the numbers for the AFC North:

The Ravens have 25 people in Player Personnel.

The Browns 35 not counting Dorsey and DePodesta.
The Steelers have 19.
The Bengals have 8.

[THE PISTONS]

(03-03-2019, 10:25 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: If you haven't noticed, the team is/has done many things out of the ordinary to the Mike Brown era of leadership, in the past year or so.  Just recently, the coaching staff is now larger than it was in previous years, even my 71 year old dad has noticed.  He said "Mike Brown now wants to spend some money?", I said, "I think that Katie is calling the shots, now".  He thought about it for a moment, and then nodded in agreement.

Precisely. Now is the time to increase the Player Personnel Dept from 8 to say 15. Even at that we'd be over half the size of the Ravens and Browns.

[*Nately120*]

(03-03-2019, 08:45 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Hint, those teams are getting fewer and fewer, as more move to contracting it out.....

Is the Bengals' FO contracting scouting duties out now?

[XsandOs]

(03-04-2019, 12:12 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Is the Bengals' FO contracting scouting duties out now?

Yes, as are 26 other Teams.

Bengals are using the National report and have to allocate one scout to them. Every Team, whether using National or Blesto, have to allocate one scout and about $100,000 for the service.

The issue is that since 27 scouts for National and BLESTO come from different Teams, there is some sabotage or withholding of information that occurs.

So each Team still has to do their own evaluation. But the report gives a good baseline.

Interestingly, Patriots don't participate in either one. Which has always left me wondering as to why they are allowed to attend the combine.

But geographically speaking, a Team realistically only needs 6 scout to cover the entire country. So the additional head count is really for evaluation of the compiled information.

[Sled21]

(03-04-2019, 12:50 AM)XsandOs Wrote: Yes, as are 26 other Teams.

Bengals are using the National report and have to allocate one scout to them. Every Team, whether using National or Blesto, have to allocate one scout and about $100,000 for the service.

The issue is that since 27 scouts for National and BLESTO come from different Teams, there is some sabotage or withholding of information that occurs.

So each Team still has to do their own evaluation. But the report gives a good baseline.

Interestingly, Patriots don't participate in either one. Which has always left me wondering as to why they are allowed to attend the combine.

But geographically speaking, a Team realistically only needs 6 scout to cover the entire country. So the additional head count is really for evaluation of the compiled information.

And they still personally scout the players that they actually want. This service allows them the luxury of not having to go and scout players who will never make it.

[McC]

The Bengal fan fight song--

'Gloom, despair, and agony on me
Deep, dark depression, excessive misery
If it weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all
Gloom, despair, and agony on me."


Maybe another dozen threads on the subject will solve the problem.

[THE PISTONS]

(03-04-2019, 09:21 AM)Sled21 Wrote: And they still personally scout the players that they actually want. This service allows them the luxury of not having to go and scout players who will never make it.

So why do the other AFC North teams have so many people in their 'Player Personnel' Dept compared to us?

[I_C_DeadPeople]

Having a small staff compared to other more successful teams is one thing. The second thing is WHO is on the staff. This current staff under Tobin has had it's moments both very good and very bad. They are essentially Bengal like - average overall. I would like to see the team address why they can't draft good OL and LB's - admit they have failed at it and make corrections.

[XsandOs]

(03-04-2019, 11:06 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: So why do the other AFC North teams have so many people in their 'Player Personnel' Dept compared to us?

That's a fair question. Ravens don't use either service, so that explains some of it.

But the real explanation is that the player personnel department is a catch all that includes staff who also manage and maintain current players on a Team as well.

But they are also used in the pre-draft process. Evaluating and conducting physicals of players who are not invited to combine, conducting background checks, etc.

Where more staff helps the most in the process is late rounds and FA signings.

[bengals67]

Drafts have been bad the last few years starting with the Og-Fisher disaster.

I assume Alexander was responsible for drafting those two guys.

If anyone on this board is a former coach or scout, I would be interested in knowing their take on watching games in person versus tape.

Seems hard to dispute that Steeler and Ravens have drafted better than the Bengals in the last 4 to 5 years.

[NKURyan]

Every year we lament the Bengals lack of a scouting staff, and every year the Bengals make a killing in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th rounds of the draft.

I guess today is necro-posting day, though. It's been two years - just start a new thread!

[THE PISTONS]

(03-04-2019, 12:30 PM)XsandOs Wrote: That's a fair question. Ravens don't use either service, so that explains some of it.

But the real explanation is that the player personnel department is a catch all that includes staff who also manage and maintain current players on a Team as well.

But they are also used in the pre-draft process. Evaluating and conducting physicals of players who are not invited to combine, conducting background checks, etc.

Where more staff helps the most in the process is late rounds and FA signings.

The Steelers have 19 people in theirs. It just seems that EVERY team in the NFL does things one way. Yet, the Bengals are dead set on doing things their way.

Why not increase?

Supposedly Coughlin wanted the Bengals to hire more scouts for him to come here and questioned if he could win the way they ran things here. And they still largely run things the same way.