1st Step - Fire O-line Coach Paul Alexander just as they did Ken Zampese

[*PhilHos*]

(10-23-2017, 03:39 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I disagree, firing PA midseason would be a great move, firing Marv midseason would be a bad one.

Boling said himself that PA does not coach up players midseason. What hurt could it do?

Let Marv ride the dying ship and move on. We can then hire a whole new coaching staff.

The last thing this team needs is to start once again from the inside.

(10-23-2017, 03:49 PM)depthchart Wrote: I lean toward taking Alexander out 1st for a few reasons.

1. The O-line melt down against the Steelers was the most glaring issue and Alexander is the Architect of that O-line.

2. If Alexander should slide under the Radar say after a Marvin firing right now only to have the next Head Coach saddled with Paul Alexander going forward then that New Coach may be in for trouble.

3. The O-line players themselves need some fresh eyes on their play and an O-line Coach that will want some New Personnel going forward.
A New Fire would be lit under O-line players to save their jobs instead of being Alexander's projects.

4. Marvin has won 2 of the last 3 games without Zampese and I let him have some more Rope to hang himself with so to speak. Fire him later in the season or let him finish this season out. Then make the Bigger Head Coaching change this offseason.






4.

I get what you guys are saying, but the reality is, I don't think any other coach gets fired during the season except Marvin.

Also, firing PA sends mixed signals, IMO. People might read into the firing that Brown thinks Lewis is doing okay, but since the OL is a problem, bye-bye PA. It also gives Lewis a way to defend himself if he wants to stay after this year.

Don't get me wrong, if PA were fired mid-season and Lewis stays, I ain't gonna cry about it. I just think the next step should be to fire Lewis. Then after the season, fire ALL coaches and hire an all new coaching staff.

[jowczarski]

On a practical level, they can't fire Alexander because they'd have literally no one to coach the offensive line then. No one. Kyle Caskey assisted on the OL waayy back in his QC coach days, and Robert Couch is the current QC. He's not a full fledged assistant. Also, at this point in time, if you're talking about coaching techniques/theory - even if you fired a guy and brought in a new guy off the street, man, you're in season. That would be a bigger disaster than you realize and frankly, it's impossible to do. It's not like a hitting or pitching coach in baseball where it's all just mental coaching.

The Coslet thing is a little overblown, to be honest. Here's what I'll say from talking to people around the league - Paul Alexander, as an OL coach, basically invented the vertical pass set. It was revolutionary at the time, well-respected - and let's be real - once the team decided to once again reinvest in drafting linemen high with Willie Anderson, it worked.

It's fair to point out that there wasn't that investment for a long while with only Zeitler being a first-round pick until the tackles 2015. Can you build a line with fourth-fifth-round picks? Maybe. Obviously the piper has now been paid.

As for the future - all I'll say is there aren't any coaches under contract in 2018. I think everyone is up for evaluation after this season.

[BenZoo2]

(10-24-2017, 04:06 PM)jowczarski Wrote: On a practical level, they can't fire Alexander because they'd have literally no one to coach the offensive line then. No one. Kyle Caskey assisted on the OL waayy back in his QC coach days, and Robert Couch is the current QC. He's not a full fledged assistant. Also, at this point in time, if you're talking about coaching techniques/theory - even if you fired a guy and brought in a new guy off the street, man, you're in season. That would be a bigger disaster than you realize and frankly, it's impossible to do. It's not like a hitting or pitching coach in baseball where it's all just mental coaching.

The Coslet thing is a little overblown, to be honest. Here's what I'll say from talking to people around the league - Paul Alexander, as an OL coach, basically invented the vertical pass set. It was revolutionary at the time, well-respected - and let's be real - once the team decided to once again reinvest in drafting linemen high with Willie Anderson, it worked.

It's fair to point out that there wasn't that investment for a long while with only Zeitler being a first-round pick until the tackles 2015. Can you build a line with fourth-fifth-round picks? Maybe. Obviously the piper has now been paid.

As for the future - all I'll say is there aren't any coaches under contract in 2018. I think everyone is up for evaluation after this season.

Good. Riddance. This team needs an enema. A la jack Nicholson in Batman.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[depthchart]

(10-24-2017, 04:06 PM)jowczarski Wrote: On a practical level, they can't fire Alexander because they'd have literally no one to coach the offensive line then. No one. Kyle Caskey assisted on the OL waayy back in his QC coach days, and Robert Couch is the current QC. He's not a full fledged assistant. Also, at this point in time, if you're talking about coaching techniques/theory - even if you fired a guy and brought in a new guy off the street, man, you're in season. That would be a bigger disaster than you realize and frankly, it's impossible to do. It's not like a hitting or pitching coach in baseball where it's all just mental coaching.

The Coslet thing is a little overblown, to be honest. Here's what I'll say from talking to people around the league - Paul Alexander, as an OL coach, basically invented the vertical pass set. It was revolutionary at the time, well-respected - and let's be real - once the team decided to once again reinvest in drafting linemen high with Willie Anderson, it worked.

It's fair to point out that there wasn't that investment for a long while with only Zeitler being a first-round pick until the tackles 2015. Can you build a line with fourth-fifth-round picks? Maybe. Obviously the piper has now been paid.

As for the future - all I'll say is there aren't any coaches under contract in 2018. I think everyone is up for evaluation after this season.

What about the choosing of Lineman ?

Is it the case that Paul Alexander has a lot of say in exactly which players get Drafted for the O-line ? Maybe more so than other position coaches who may have to defer to Mike Brown more often.

In other words, are these his hand picked guys that he influences the team to take and then is personally invested in proving himself right by sticking with some of them too long ?

Passing on opportunities to upgrade or provide serious competition for his hand picked projects.

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-23-2017, 03:53 PM)Gamma Ray Tan Wrote: It is quite amazing that everyone on here knew that the O-Line was sub-par and needed upgraded in the off-season. Yet people getting paid to know this thought everything was going to be okay as-is.......How does this happen?! I should apply for O-Line coach position....It seems I know more than Alexander. I'll even do it for far less money!

Because Mike Brown told them "you guys picked these players and they're playing, besides we can save some money in the process".

[jowczarski]

Yes, Paul Alexander has a say in the offensive linemen the team picks. All the position coaches do.
As for deferring to Mike Brown - it's actually Duke Tobin.
As for 'saving money' ... I'm not sure that really enters the equation in season since they're already paying them?

[HarleyDog]

(10-24-2017, 04:06 PM)jowczarski Wrote: As for the future - all I'll say is there aren't any coaches under contract in 2018. I think everyone is up for evaluation after this season.

I not only hope Alexander and Marvin are canned, I hope they are banned from ever entering the state of Ohio again. Wait a minute... idea brewing...

Can't wait till end of season. Need season ticket holders to file a restraining order against them for fear of sexual, emotional trauma. These guys mind f*** us every time they enter the building. What judge would not clearly see this as legit?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-24-2017, 04:06 PM)jowczarski Wrote: On a practical level, they can't fire Alexander because they'd have literally no one to coach the offensive line then. No one. Kyle Caskey assisted on the OL waayy back in his QC coach days, and Robert Couch is the current QC. He's not a full fledged assistant. Also, at this point in time, if you're talking about coaching techniques/theory - even if you fired a guy and brought in a new guy off the street, man, you're in season. That would be a bigger disaster than you realize and frankly, it's impossible to do. It's not like a hitting or pitching coach in baseball where it's all just mental coaching.

The Coslet thing is a little overblown, to be honest. Here's what I'll say from talking to people around the league - Paul Alexander, as an OL coach, basically invented the vertical pass set. It was revolutionary at the time, well-respected - and let's be real - once the team decided to once again reinvest in drafting linemen high with Willie Anderson, it worked.

It's fair to point out that there wasn't that investment for a long while with only Zeitler being a first-round pick until the tackles 2015. Can you build a line with fourth-fifth-round picks? Maybe. Obviously the piper has now been paid.

As for the future - all I'll say is there aren't any coaches under contract in 2018. I think everyone is up for evaluation after this season.

.....but you had Whitworth in round 2, Clint Boling was as high as a 2nd rounder on some mocks and scouting reports, we picked up Bobbie Williams in FA, Levi Jones was a NUMBER 10 PICK, Andre Smith was a first rounder, he let Mathis flop here.....he's had the talent.  In fact, the only times he's been successful is when he's had lines mostly filled (except Center.....God forbid we'd get a useful C) with upper level talent.  With all due respect, you missed some dots when you were connecting from Willie Anderson to Kevin Zeitler there.

[depthchart]

(10-25-2017, 11:45 PM)jowczarski Wrote: Yes, Paul Alexander has a say in the offensive linemen the team picks. All the position coaches do.
As for deferring to Mike Brown - it's actually Duke Tobin.
As for 'saving money' ... I'm not sure that really enters the equation in season since they're already paying them?

I find Duke Tobin's role to be quite interesting and not fully clear at least to me.

Tobin holds the Title of "Director of Player Personnel" under Senior Vice President of Player Personnel Pete Brown.

Both of the above are under President and GENERAL MANAGER Mike Brown.

I have heard that Mike Brown was enamored with Jordan Willis and Carl Lawson plus signed off on the John Ross pick.

Decisions like how much to offer Whitworth and Zeitler may actually rest with Mike Brown more so than Tobin who appears to me to be someone that suggests a path that Mike Brown must sign off on or change.

Any clarification on how this structure actually works ?

Also, if Mike Brown were to step back and allow say a Family member or someone already inside the Organization to take over the General Manager reigns after this season, who would be the most likely person he would choose ?

P.S. Mike Brown may choose to do this so that he could be around for the Transition instead of having that Transition occur after his death.
       Be around to assure his Family has a smooth Transition by stepping back after the 2017 season.
(This may not be likely to happen but if it did)
       Having all Coaches up for evaluation may offer this type of Transition to be Owned by the New GM he chose.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-24-2017, 03:13 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I get what you guys are saying, but the reality is, I don't think any other coach gets fired during the season except Marvin.

Also, firing PA sends mixed signals, IMO. People might read into the firing that Brown thinks Lewis is doing okay, but since the OL is a problem, bye-bye PA. It also gives Lewis a way to defend himself if he wants to stay after this year.

Don't get me wrong, if PA were fired mid-season and Lewis stays, I ain't gonna cry about it. I just think the next step should be to fire Lewis. Then after the season, fire ALL coaches and hire an all new coaching staff.

Eh, i think Marv should of been let go after this season no matter what. Don't have to fire him, as Jim here says,
just don't renew him or PA's contracts at the very least. These two just need to be replaced after the season but
if we were to let one of them go midseason my vote would be for PA.

As Boling said, PA doesn't coach players up midseason. Ask McNally to step in for a bit if he is for it.

(10-24-2017, 04:06 PM)jowczarski Wrote: On a practical level, they can't fire Alexander because they'd have literally no one to coach the offensive line then. No one. Kyle Caskey assisted on the OL waayy back in his QC coach days, and Robert Couch is the current QC. He's not a full fledged assistant. Also, at this point in time, if you're talking about coaching techniques/theory - even if you fired a guy and brought in a new guy off the street, man, you're in season. That would be a bigger disaster than you realize and frankly, it's impossible to do. It's not like a hitting or pitching coach in baseball where it's all just mental coaching.

The Coslet thing is a little overblown, to be honest. Here's what I'll say from talking to people around the league - Paul Alexander, as an OL coach, basically invented the vertical pass set. It was revolutionary at the time, well-respected - and let's be real - once the team decided to once again reinvest in drafting linemen high with Willie Anderson, it worked.

It's fair to point out that there wasn't that investment for a long while with only Zeitler being a first-round pick until the tackles 2015. Can you build a line with fourth-fifth-round picks? Maybe. Obviously the piper has now been paid.

As for the future - all I'll say is there aren't any coaches under contract in 2018. I think everyone is up for evaluation after this season.

McNally was helping out in 2015 and i don't find it to be a coincidence that our OL played much better
that season. If he is for it let him pitch hit at OL coach for the rest of the season. I DO really like what
you said in your last sentence Jim.

They do all need evaluation and a cleaning of house would be what this team really needs.

Benzoo said it, this team needs an enema!

(10-26-2017, 09:29 AM)Wyche Wrote: .....but you had Whitworth in round 2, Clint Boling was as high as a 2nd rounder on some mocks and scouting reports, we picked up Bobbie Williams in FA, Levi Jones was a NUMBER 10 PICK, Andre Smith was a first rounder, he let Mathis flop here.....he's had the talent.  In fact, the only times he's been successful is when he's had lines mostly filled (except Center.....God forbid we'd get a useful C) with upper level talent.  With all due respect, you missed some dots when you were connecting from Willie Anderson to Kevin Zeitler there.

Spot on Wyche as usual. The only players PA has ever really had success with were highly polished and talented.

Heck, Mathis was highly polished and he couldn't do anything with him and made him sit under Nasty Nate Livings.

Also, trading up for Bodine shows how much PA knows about Center play. Dude has always been one of the worst
Centers in the entire league and has handcuffed our Offense for years. PA is terrible at coaching up run blocking.

[Derrick]

(10-23-2017, 01:59 PM)Wyche Wrote: Piano Man is going NOWHERE.



Not that I disagree with a thing you said......

Yes.
In another post speaking to Mike Brown's inability to make changes, the point was that if he changes the HC, things might get worse.  He probably thinks the same way about PA. But, how could things get worse than they are?

[*ochocincos*]

(10-24-2017, 04:06 PM)jowczarski Wrote: As for the future - all I'll say is there aren't any coaches under contract in 2018. I think everyone is up for evaluation after this season.

Holy crap, I didn't know that. Seeing which coaches are retained might be the most exciting thing to watch this offseason.

[*PhilHos*]

(10-26-2017, 03:06 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Holy crap, I didn't know that. Seeing which coaches are retained might be the most exciting thing to watch this offseason.

And probably the most infuriating, too.

[muskiesfan]

(10-26-2017, 09:29 AM)Wyche Wrote: .....but you had Whitworth in round 2, Clint Boling was as high as a 2nd rounder on some mocks and scouting reports, we picked up Bobbie Williams in FA, Levi Jones was a NUMBER 10 PICK, Andre Smith was a first rounder, he let Mathis flop here.....he's had the talent.  In fact, the only times he's been successful is when he's had lines mostly filled (except Center.....God forbid we'd get a useful C) with upper level talent.  With all due respect, you missed some dots when you were connecting from Willie Anderson to Kevin Zeitler there.

Absolute fact. How good is our OLine coach if he can only succeed with a bunch of 1st and 2nd round picks? He should succeed in that scenario. I completely agree with Jim that the team has neglected the OLine for a minute, but when the owner/GM does not value interior OLine, it's not a surprise.

To also add insult to injury, a lot of our poor OLineman have been hand selected by our OLine coach. Good for him that he once was good, but that is certainly not the case now. 3/5 of our OLine are his picks and all 3 are close to the worst at their positions.

Let's also look at how he has good years for pass protection, but works for a head coach that has always preached he wants to be a run first team. The results you ask? The Bengals are constantly poor at yards per carry. They are constantly a poor run blocking team.

I'll completely admit that part of my problem with Alexander the Great is frustration from watching my QB get killed and our run game be shit. However, those 2 things help to point that he is not good at his job. Alexander the Great needs to hit the bricks.

[depthchart]

(10-26-2017, 03:06 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Holy crap, I didn't know that. Seeing which coaches are retained might be the most exciting thing to watch this offseason.

This could end up back firing even more.

Say our two Coordinators Lazor and Guenther are valued by other teams for Coordinator positions. If under contract they can't leave for another position at the same Coordinator level.

Not being under contract they can leave to a same level position with another team.

The better coaches on the Staff may use this opportunity to Bolt to other teams.

The remaining Coaches that are not as prized by other teams end up being retained by the Bengals to make up the Nucleus of the New Staff.

[*PhilHos*]

(10-27-2017, 12:13 PM)depthchart Wrote: This could end up back firing even more.

Say our two Coordinators Lazor and Guenther are valued by other teams for Coordinator positions. If under contract they can't leave for another position at the same Coordinator level.

Not being under contract they can leave to a same level position with another team.

The better coaches on the Staff may use this opportunity to Bolt to other teams.

The remaining Coaches that are not as prized by other teams end up being retained by the Bengals to make up the Nucleus of the New Staff.

We may still have a chance at Guenther ... as HC. 

[Joelist]

Sadly we both need Alexander to go AND for the team to change its philosophy on how to build. Instead of building from the skill positions in we need to build from the lines out - and on those lines we need to regard all positions as equally valuable.

[Murdock2420]

I will never understand the Paul Alexander thing.

Here in town, we see the O-line for what is has been....yet outside of town, he is viewed as a "great coach"

Seriously, look at this:

One of the longest-tenured assistants of any stripe in the NFL, Alexander has been the Bengals’ offensive line coach since 1994, and added the title of Assistant Head Coach in 2003. He’s served under four different head coaches for the Bengals, and his lines have blocked for four different running backs with 1,000-yard seasons. Cincinnati’s line under Alexander has ranked among the top 10 in fewest sacks allowed totals in four of the last five NFL seasons, and it set franchise records for low quarterback takedowns in two different seasons before that. Alexander has gotten the job done with his front five through multiple personnel shifts, injuries, coaching philosophies, and schematic shifts in the league. At this point, he should be talked about in the same breath as legendary line coaches like Howard Mudd and Alex Gibbs.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2016/06/07/best-nfl-coaches-paul-alexander-bengals

From the list of Best Coaches.

What are we missing or what is the rest of the world missing?

[depthchart]

(10-27-2017, 02:16 PM)Joelist Wrote: Sadly we both need Alexander to go AND for the team to change its philosophy on how to build. Instead of building from the skill positions in we need to build from the lines out - and on those lines we need to regard all positions as equally valuable.

Regarding all O-line positions as equally valuable is a solid point. Draft dominance wherever you can.

The Bengals take 1st round pick stabs at getting tackles and very occasionally at Guard with the Zeitler pick for example.

I think that part of Paul Alexander's problem is that he thinks he can find "Gems" in later rounds but to him a Gem may be a player that can Start in the NFL.

He ends up being Right, in a sense, that he found a later round player that can Start in the NFL but ends up with a guy that ranks say 25th out of 32 at his position.

In his mind he found a Gem since many Lineman drafted wash out all together and never become consistent starters but in the way that matters most he has filled a starting position with a marginal starter then sticks with him. Not truly a Gem in the sense of being Dominant at his position.

This mindset may then lead to ignoring obviously better talent early in Drafts at say the Center position because that would force his previously found "Gem" to the Bench in a back up role.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-27-2017, 02:33 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I will never understand the Paul Alexander thing.

Here in town, we see the O-line for what is has been....yet outside of town, he is viewed as a "great coach"

Seriously, look at this:

One of the longest-tenured assistants of any stripe in the NFL, Alexander has been the Bengals’ offensive line coach since 1994, and added the title of Assistant Head Coach in 2003. He’s served under four different head coaches for the Bengals, and his lines have blocked for four different running backs with 1,000-yard seasons. Cincinnati’s line under Alexander has ranked among the top 10 in fewest sacks allowed totals in four of the last five NFL seasons,  and it set franchise records for low quarterback takedowns in two different seasons before that. Alexander has gotten the job done with his front five through multiple personnel shifts, injuries, coaching philosophies, and schematic shifts in the league. At this point, he should be talked about in the same breath as legendary line coaches like Howard Mudd and Alex Gibbs.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2016/06/07/best-nfl-coaches-paul-alexander-bengals

From the list of Best Coaches.

What are we missing or what is the rest of the world missing?

Crazy shit man.

We aren't missing anything, these guys missed the fact his O-lineman are consistently terrible at run blocking and
that he puts his Lineman in terrible positions with his Zone Blocking Scheme. He picks players like Bodine who are
not ZBS Lineman and continually starts him in the middle of our Line to the team's detriment.

He starts Ogbuehi at RT and essentially throws the entire team's year down the drain.

He picks these players and puts them in bad positions consistently, moving Fisher all around the O-line, playing FB,
LT, RT and then expecting him to just be a natural. I mean it is just insane. Put on top of that according to Boling
he doesn't even coach his players up mid season...

Dude should of been fired like 10 years ago when the NFL left his style behind.