When does the honeymoon with Tobin end?

[*ochocincos*]

(10-26-2017, 10:53 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The assistants we do bring in from other teams aren't exactly in a position of power to where they can question the top dogs in the organization, either. Plus we have an owner that happens to be both an idiot and a control freak. Unlike pretzel filled with cheese, that's not a good combo. 

Who can question the owner? That's why an owner as GM is a terrible idea. It's like if Matt Millen bought the Lions.

I remember Jay Gruden banging on the table for Andy Dalton over Colin Kaepernick and Ryan Mallett, which was not what Mike Brown originally wanted. So it does seem the OC has some pull even if newly added to the team.
This makes me wonder what Bill Lazor might look for in next year's draft now that he is the OC...if he actually is still here after this year that is.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-26-2017, 11:18 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: Just because players from 2012 aren't on the roster doesn't mean it was a bad draft. If that was the case most of our drafts will be bad, because we apparently don't extend players. We got Zeitler, Jones, and Sanu from 2012, so it was a GREAT draft. 

2011 - was a great draft too (Green, Dalton, Boling).
2012 - see above
2013 - Average at best
2014 - Below average
2015 - Bad
2016 - Good+ so far - we have WJIII (who looks good), Vigil (who leads the team in tackles), Fejedelem who seems to be a good special teams player, and an up and comer.
2017 - Great so far - Ross is a ?, Mixon looks good even though he has a bad YPC (due to OL), Lawson, and Willis look like they will be good players for years to come, and Jake Elliot seems to be doing great for the Eagles (we DID draft him, so you have to give props to our scouts. The coaches are the ones who let him go, and fairly so).


So all in all so far 4 out of the last 7 drafts have been good to great.

Your drafts from 5-6 years ago are supposed to be the ones that build the core of your team. Those guys are in their prime.

I argue that them not being on the roster still is a big deal.

[Brownshoe]

(10-26-2017, 11:26 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Your drafts from 5-6 years ago are supposed to be the ones that build the core of your team. Those guys are in their prime.

I argue that them not being on the roster still is a big deal.

Obviously it's a big deal, but how do you grade that draft poorly just because Mike Brown doesn't want to pay players, or because the players want more $$ because they played well? I don't see how you give the draft the negative when it wasn't the draft that screwed up, but our front office.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-26-2017, 11:22 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I remember Jay Gruden banging on the table for Andy Dalton over Colin Kaepernick and Ryan Mallett, which was not what Mike Brown originally wanted. So it does seem the OC has some pull even if newly added to the team.
This makes me wonder what Bill Lazor might look for in next year's draft now that he is the OC...if he actually is still here after this year that is.

True, and that's a good point to keep in mind when people say a new coach won't have any power with Mike Brown.

If I'm Lazor, I'm screaming LINEMEN LINEMEN LINEMEN all offseason. I don't think we're bad anywhere else. Maybe a vet WR or a vet TE to backup Kroft. Those needs are more minor though. We're good at QB and RB. Green is Green. Kroft has been quietly been very impressive since Eifert went down. Ross is playing this week and we should get a good idea on what we have soon.

(10-26-2017, 11:26 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Your drafts from 5-6 years ago are supposed to be the ones that build the core of your team. Those guys are in their prime.

I argue that them not being on the roster still is a big deal.

Yeah, but you can't blame Tobin for not resigning those guys. 2012 was a good job by Tobin...then Mike opted not to retain those players. Not due to skill, but due to price. 

[*PhilHos*]

(10-26-2017, 12:16 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: If I'm Lazor, I'm screaming LINEMEN LINEMEN LINEMEN all offseason.

If I'm Lazor, I'm screaming LINEMAN LINEMEN LINEMEN all day every day starting RIGHT NOW. 

[THE PISTONS]

(10-26-2017, 12:16 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Yeah, but you can't blame Tobin for not resigning those guys. 2012 was a good job by Tobin...then Mike opted not to retain those players. Not due to skill, but due to price. 

Which goes back to my main point. People bash Dalton. Palmer. Lewis. etc.

Can ANYONE win here?

The team is just cheap and doesn't view talent acquisition like other teams in the league. They run the roster for value. They don't seem to adapt to the salary cap rising by about $10 million a year either. That means that players make more money each year.

[THE PISTONS]

Taking Bernard over Leveon Bell.
Zeitler over DeCastro.

There are a bunch of Bengals misses we could talk about.

[SYLVIA]

It seems to me that off. line coach plays the players drafted high in the draft first, whether they good or not. I cannot see any other reason Westerman is not playing.

[J24]

(10-26-2017, 10:44 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Taking Bernard over Leveon Bell.
Zeitler over DeCastro.

There are a bunch of Bengals misses we could talk about.

While Bell is better than Bernard it isn't a gigantic gap between the two. As for Zeitler vs Decastro again not that huge of a gap. 

[J24]

What have we done in free agency the past two years vs what we did 2008 through 2015 is a huge difference. The team doesn't even try anymore to sign anyone outside of the organization.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-27-2017, 10:34 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: What have we done in free agency the past two years vs what we did 2008 through 2015 is a huge difference.  The team doesn't even try anymore to sign anyone outside of the organization.

I honestly think they were overconfident and thought that they were some great drafting team. They had great drafts 2 times in the past 10 years.

[THE PISTONS]

WOW! The Jaguars just got Dareus from the Bills for a 6th Round pick. The Jaguars defense is going to be insanely good.

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-26-2017, 10:16 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I read that article from 2000 about how the Bengals didn't give players shoes and individual jock strap yesterday and it really made me think...that was 6-7 years into Mike Browns tenure. The Bengals management has only worked for the Bengals...so none see how other organizations do things. They don't know that the way we do things are not the same.

Then Marvin has been here some 14-15 years. Alexander has been here some 24 years. Guenther has been with Marvin for some 14 years.

Lazor is outside. Maybe a few other assistants, but even they tend to stay here for a long time.

Without having outside people, you can't see how other teams do things...and it eventually leads to complacency.

Marvin came from outside years ago and came in and changed some things...but at some point he was indoctrinated into the 'Bengals way.'

They knew/know how other teams do things. It's not like it's a great kept secret. Players talk to other players. 

I read an article back around the time the Browns were rebooted (probably the same one you did), about how they treat their players...amenities like day care, doing players laundry, etc etc. Of course, that didn't do a damn thing for how they've played on the field and i'd never expect the Bengals to do anything like that, but they could certainly do a lot more than they do. Especially given how pathetically frugal they were back in the Spinney days. 

[Shake n Blake]

(10-27-2017, 10:30 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: While Bell is better than Bernard it isn't a gigantic gap between the two.

[J24]

(10-28-2017, 12:54 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote:

Gio has done his part here and with a better Offensive line his numbers look A lot better. We're not losing because we drafted him over Bell.  We're losing because our investments in our  offensive line sucks. 

[CornerBlitz]

I have no issues with Tobin. You're not going to hit with every player. Just take a look at this year's draft. Ross is suspect but the other pics were very good.

I will repeat the same thing over and over again but the real problem is our head coach/QB combo.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-28-2017, 02:09 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Gio has done his part here and with a better Offensive line his numbers look A lot better. We're not losing because we drafted him over Bell.  We're losing because our investments in our  offensive line sucks. 

Bell is the best back in the league. If the Steelers drafted Bernard, I doubt he'd be the best.

Bell is super talented.

Yes our offensive line sucks now...but even when it was good...Bernard never put up huge numbers.

Bernard is a slightly above average back.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(10-28-2017, 02:13 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: I have no issues with Tobin. You're not going to hit with every player. Just take a look at this year's draft. Ross is suspect but the other pics were very good.  

I will repeat the same thing over and over again but the real problem is our head coach/QB combo.

It's not about every pick hitting, it's about the positions and players at those positions. 
Scheme fit etc. He should be on top of that. 

[J24]

(10-28-2017, 09:12 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Bell is the best back in the league. If the Steelers drafted Bernard, I doubt he'd be the best.

Bell is super talented.

Yes our offensive line sucks now...but even when it was good...Bernard never put up huge numbers.

Bernard is a slightly above average back.

Bell best Back in league IDK about that. David Johnson, Todd Gurley, Elliot, and Fornette all could claim best RB in the league. Also DeAngelo Williams put up similar numbers  in 2015 behind that same offensive line. Also Bernard has never been given the same work load as Bell which makes his numbers less impressive.

[Bengalfan4life27c]

Dareus JAG at this point Bills at 4-2 arent going to trade him for scraps otherwise. Tobin deserves a pass we should go out and get quality lineman in free agency this year especially having extra money not having to extend Eifert