For you o line evaluators out there

[BenZoo2]

Have you seen any improvement in our tackles? And if not, what is the key issue? Is it talent, coaching, other?

Could either of them transition to guard and work out there?


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[THE PISTONS]

Ced actually played Guard in college early on. It's possible.

But...then...WHO do you play at Tackle?

I think the tackles have improved slightly pass blocking but are terrible run blocking.

Issues? Ceds issue since college has been strength. I also don't know that they are suited for the scheme we play here. Ced gave up a decent amount of sacks in college too.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-26-2017, 01:54 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Ced actually played Guard in college early on. It's possible.

But...then...WHO do you play at Tackle?

I think the tackles have improved slightly pass blocking but are terrible run blocking.

Issues? Ceds issue since college has been strength. I also don't know that they are suited for the scheme we play here. Ced gave up a decent amount of sacks in college too.

Yeah, they have gotten better in pass protection as the year has went on but just cannot get any push in the run game.

But this is common under PA, he has never been good at coaching up run blocking. I actually think these guys might be
okay with another year in the weight room and a new O-line coach to coach up this part of their game. Draft O-lineman
early next year is all i can say. OT, Center and a Guard all early.

Need to do this just in case these two don't come around.

If we made a move for Staley it would really help us out, just makes too much sense though and isn't happening. Staley
would really help out the run game for us and if Andre is still the best RT put him there. But they will ride with the young
guys, it is what these coaches do.

[muskiesfan]

Yes, I have seen improvement. The problem is that they're both still at the bottom of the barrel. With how slowly they are progressing and with the little progress they have shown, they ceiling for both of them still appears to be well below average. My biggest issue with that is our OLine coach will continue to start them until they are not re-signed. Alexander the Great is going nowhere and neither are Ced and Fisher.

[*Go Cards*]

(10-26-2017, 02:07 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah, they have gotten better in pass protection as the year has went on but just cannot get any push in the run game.

But this is common under PA, he has never been good at coaching up run blocking. I actually think these guys might be
okay with another year in the weight room and a new O-line coach to coach up this part of their game. Draft O-lineman
early next year is all i can say. OT, Center and a Guard all early.

Need to do this just in case these two don't come around.

If we made a move for Staley it would really help us out, just makes too much sense though and isn't happening. Staley
would really help out the run game for us and if Andre is still the best RT put him there. But they will ride with the young
guys, it is what these coaches do.

This

and yes there is slight improvement but vast improvement is still needed before they are good. 

[redwood]

(10-26-2017, 02:07 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah, they have gotten better in pass protection as the year has went on but just cannot get any push in the run game.

But this is common under PA, he has never been good at coaching up run blocking. I actually think these guys might be
okay with another year in the weight room and a new O-line coach to coach up this part of their game. Draft O-lineman
early next year is all i can say. OT, Center and a Guard all early.

Need to do this just in case these two don't come around.

If we made a move for Staley it would really help us out, just makes too much sense though and isn't happening. Staley
would really help out the run game for us and if Andre is still the best RT put him there. But they will ride with the young
guys, it is what these coaches do.

Seems hard to say Alexander gets the most out of what we spent fairly high picks on.   Ced, Fisher, Bonine WERE expected to go about where they got drafted. NORMALLY... at least ought to all be AVERAGE (at least) but... I have seen slow progress.
Staley also crossed my mind. Were he a bit younger.. sure, we'd bid.   The Niners are worse off than the Bengals and... might listen.  More likely.. we use SEVERAL picks on O-Line. We may  shift Someone to G. The Bengals were REWARDED for a mediocre year, with a relatively soft sceduale. It wasn't soft enough. If we lose to the Luck-less Colts......it's serious.
If we win... it's still not enough cause to be comfortable.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-27-2017, 12:37 PM)redwood Wrote: Seems hard to say Alexander gets the most out of what we spent fairly high picks on.   Ced, Fisher, Bonine WERE expected to go about where they got drafted. NORMALLY... at least ought to all be AVERAGE (at least) but... I have seen slow progress.
Staley also crossed my mind. Were he a bit younger.. sure, we'd bid.   The Niners are worse off than the Bengals and... might listen.  More likely.. we use SEVERAL picks on O-Line. We may  shift Someone to G. The Bengals were REWARDED for a mediocre year, with a relatively soft sceduale. It wasn't soft enough. If we lose to the Luck-less Colts......it's serious.
If we win... it's still not enough cause to be comfortable.

PA has definately been even poorer than normal lately coaching up fairly high picks i agree.

He needs polished players to work with like Whit, Big Willie, Levi Jones etc.

To not understand that the Center position is extremely important and effects your entire O-line maybe more than any
position and then to actually trade up for a player like Bodine shows tons. Cause i don't think Bodine was expected to go
as high as we took him, he had little to no upside and didn't even fit the Zone Blocking Scheme we run. Busted pick and
has made it hard on everyone around him from Zeitler to now Boling and the young guys.

We need a new O-line coach to pick his players and put in the proper Scheme that is up to date with the NFL.

[*ochocincos*]

I don't see myself as some good OL evaluator, but from my observations Ogbuehi and Fisher don't have what it takes to be good OTs in the NFL. Their only chance to stick in the NFL as a starter will be to move inside. However, I think this will still be difficult for both of them given strength is a weakness of theirs. But Ogbuehi's best position in college was RG and Fisher has/had the mean streak that fits well inside.

[The Caped Crusader]

I played tackle for 8 years.

I remember a coach told me, the best way to gauge how well you do as a linemen (offensive specifically) is if nobody ever brings up your name. I never really understood it, but then realized offensive linemen are the foundation of the house. Not heard, not seen. Just hold the house up, but when the house falls apart, it's the first place you look.

As far as improvements? CO looks a bit better. I don't think he is living up to his first round talent. Some of the issues I'm seeing with the line, especially in protecting inside gaps seem to be miscommunication (dial back last week with the interior sack given up because Boling doubled down on the NT). Stuff like this is communication, poor awareness and poor coaching. I mainly want to blame coaching because Pittsburgh does so many exotic blitzes, especially with inside gap pressures, mainly to fold the pocket. Baltimore does the same thing (usually pretty well). We were unable to protect against both teams...so, I really want to blame coaching.

Everyone else, besides CO? I'd say mediocre, at best. Bodine, for as strong as he is, isn't technically proficient. Fisher is getting better, but still has a long way to go in my opinion.

[Murdock2420]

(10-27-2017, 02:13 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I don't see myself as some good OL evaluator, but from my observations Ogbuehi and Fisher don't have what it takes to be good OTs in the NFL. Their only chance to stick in the NFL as a starter will be to move inside. However, I think this will still be difficult for both of them given strength is a weakness of theirs. But Ogbuehi's best position in college was RG and Fisher has/had the mean streak that fits well inside.

I am in the same boat, not some super genius line talent guy, but I know enough to see what works and what doesn't work. Part of it I think is the scheme and the scheme doesn't suit the talent. These guys weren't maulers coming out of college, they were both if I recall spread offense guys. That doesn't really work so great if you have a lot of plays designed to dive into the line and try to grind out yards. Get guys from the SEC powerhouse schools, Georgia, Alabama, or Big Ten guys who are beefy and push the pile. Gotta get guys that fit what you are trying to do. Plus, it doesn't help either one of them that the inside of the line is an absolute train wreck too.

I'll never forget Lap saying that the center and guard set set the depth and the tackles the width. If the center is getting blown up back into Andy and he has to step back deeper than usual, then the place the tackles are supposed to drive edge rushers too, is now where Andy is standing.

So, I'm not defending Ced or Fisher but it probably doesn't help them when Andy is having to drop back even further than usual because the middle of the line is coming right into his face.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-27-2017, 02:42 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I am in the same boat, not some super genius line talent guy, but I know enough to see what works and what doesn't work. Part of it I think is the scheme and the scheme doesn't suit the talent. These guys weren't maulers coming out of college, they were both if I recall spread offense guys. That doesn't really work so great if you have a lot of plays designed to dive into the line and try to grind out yards. Get guys from the SEC powerhouse schools, Georgia, Alabama, or Big Ten guys who are beefy and push the pile. Gotta get guys that fit what you are trying to do. Plus, it doesn't help either one of them that the inside of the line is an absolute train wreck too.

I'll never forget Lap saying that the center and guard set set the depth and the tackles the width. If the center is getting blown up back into Andy and he has to step back deeper than usual, then the place the tackles are supposed to drive edge rushers too, is now where Andy is standing.

So, I'm not defending Ced or Fisher but it probably doesn't help them when Andy is having to drop back even further than usual because the middle of the line is coming right into his face.

I think you hit the nail on the head with this. Where have the best offensive linemen come from for the Bengals in recent memory?
Andrew Whitworth - LSU (SEC)
Andre Smith - Alabama (SEC)
Kevin Zeitler - Wisconsin (Big 10)
Clint Boling - Georgia (SEC)
Evan Mathis - Alabama (SEC)
Kyle Cook - Michigan St (Big 10)
Bobbie Williams - Arkansas (SEC)
Willie Anderson - Auburn (SEC)

The two dominant OL that didn't go to SEC/Big 10 schools were Rich Braham (WVU) and Levi Jones (Arizona St)

Outside of those two, it's pretty clear the SEC and Big 10 are where to generally get the best OL.

[TheUberHuber]

(10-26-2017, 01:49 PM)BenZoo2 Wrote: Have you seen any improvement in our tackles?  And if not, what is the key issue?  Is it talent, coaching, other?

Could either of them transition to guard and work out there?


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Hass Andy been able to sit in the pocket for more than 4 seconds for a single play all season? Lol I would say the play calling is making the o line look better in pass pro tbh. Their run blocking seems like a bad Saturday night live comedy skit. They are a complete joke. to sum up the question.... THE OFFENSIVE LINE IS TERRIBLE!!! 



The worst part is there is going to be no quick fix while these guys are on their current contracts.  MB has gotten rid of guys still under contract bit it is also very rare.

[*bfine32*]

I see improvement in the OTs. Of course I'm a "glass half full" type guy.

The problem is the interior. Bodine showed slight improvement last year, but has not continued that improvement and Trey Hopkins is what he is. An undrafted FA that has taken 3 years to even see the 53.

I'm for giving the bookends a little longer and see what we can do to improve the interior.