How the Browns' trade for AJ McCarron fell apart

[*ochocincos*]

This is still partly on the Bengals because of the ridiculous price tag they had on McCarron. They should have been willing to shop McCarron for a 2nd rounder, nothing more. If Garropolo only fetches a 2nd rounder, McCarron should not fetch more than that. The fact the Browns became desperate enough to cave to those outrageous terms is a different topic, but this deal probably would have gotten done before the deadline if Brown wasn't asking for so much in return. What this also indicates to me is that Cleveland seems to be willing to move on from Kizer already. And if McCarron does become RFA vs UFA, I'd slap a 2nd round tender on him and let the Browns take him that way.

[Au165]

(11-01-2017, 10:24 AM)ochocincos Wrote: This is still partly on the Bengals because of the ridiculous price tag they had on McCarron. They should have been willing to shop McCarron for a 2nd rounder, nothing more. If Garropolo only fetches a 2nd rounder, McCarron should not fetch more than that. The fact the Browns became desperate enough to cave to those outrageous terms is a different topic, but this deal probably would have gotten done before the deadline if Brown wasn't asking for so much in return. What this also indicates to me is that Cleveland seems to be willing to move on from Kizer already. And if McCarron does become RFA vs UFA, I'd slap a 2nd round tender on him and let the Browns take him that way.

This makes absolutely no sense. They got a deal done for more than what you said and your mad at them? They got a deal done and turned their paperwork in without issue before the deadline, this is 100% on the Browns. If the Bengals had time to turn their paperwork in so did the Browns.

Trying to spin this as anything different is simply looking for a reason to be mad.

[*bfine32*]

Quote:Reeling from the most public yet of their many humiliations, the Browns have blamed the failed trade for quarterback A.J. McCarron on the bunglings of the Bengals, telling Mary Kay Cabot of the Cleveland Plain Dealer that the Bengals failed to send to the league the trade document signed by both teams, after the Browns had sent the signed paperwork to Cincinnati.

There’s one small problem with that excuse. That’s not how trades are communicated to the league. And every key member of every front office knows, or should know, the proper procedure.

Per multiple league sources, a trade becomes official only when both teams independently communicate the trade to the league office. It definitely doesn’t happen as the Browns claim they tried to do it, with chain of communication involving one team sending a form to the other team, which then signs the form and sends it to the league.

And so here are the potential explanations for what’s going on. One, the Browns are lying about what happened to cover up their incompetence. Two, the Browns are telling the truth and are genuinely incompetent. Three, the Browns deliberately sent the paperwork to the Bengals and not to the league office in order to keep the trade from happening, with a premeditated “did I do that?” already in place.

As to the "waiting too late" that's just ignorant. The team set a price, they cannot force anyone to pay that price earlier than they agree to.

Bill Polian was on late hits last night on NFL Radio and said he is 100% sure that there is no way the Bengals messed this up as he has had many dealings with our FO and none are more professional. he had no comment on the professionalism of the Brown's FO.


As hard as folks in the forum keep trying. The Bengals are not to blame for this fiasco.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-01-2017, 10:33 AM)Au165 Wrote: This makes absolutely no sense. They got a deal done for more than what you said and your mad at them? They got a deal done and turned their paperwork in without issue before the deadline, this is 100% on the Browns. If the Bengals had time to turn their paperwork in so did the Browns.

Trying to spin this as anything different is simply looking for a reason to be mad.

Well Jim O. states this in his article...

Quote:The day began with the Browns calling the Bengals to initiate talks – discussions the Bengals were reluctant to participate in – resulting in offers and counteroffers.
The long-time price tag of a first-round pick for McCarron had dropped, but at some point during the day the Bengals made it clear there was no more room for negotiation.
About an hour before the deadline, the Browns rejected the final set of terms the Bengals had put forth – McCarron for the two draft picks.
Then, within 20 minutes of the 4 p.m. deadline (there is some dispute over the timestamps reported by ESPN) – Cleveland reversed course.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree then, because I feel the asking price for McCarron was always too high to begin with. It was only in a desperation move by the Browns at the last minute to accept such a deal. If the asking price was just a 2nd rounder (reasonable IMO), the Browns and Bengals would have likely been able to get agreement done with plenty of time left in the day and ensured the paper work was completed properly ahead of schedule. Scrambling at the last second due to desperation can sometimes result in something being missed. In this case, it was.

Don't get me wrong, a 2nd AND 3rd would have been a steal for the Bengals, but at the end of the day the deal didn't get to happen and so I think it does make sense to try and think up ways that it could have been done to ensure a trade went through that wasn't so last-minute.

[Au165]

(11-01-2017, 10:47 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Well Jim O. states this in his article...
I guess we will have to agree to disagree then, because I feel the asking price for McCarron was always too high to begin with. It was only in a desperation move by the Browns at the last minute to accept such a deal. If the asking price was just a 2nd rounder (reasonable IMO), the Browns and Bengals would have likely been able to get agreement done with plenty of time left in the day and ensured the paper work was completed properly ahead of schedule. Scrambling at the last second due to desperation can sometimes result in something being missed. In this case, it was.

Don't get me wrong, a 2nd AND 3rd would have been a steal for the Bengals, but at the end of the day the deal didn't get to happen and so I think it does make sense to try and think up ways that it could have been done to ensure a trade went through that wasn't so last-minute.

The deal was done, the Browns screwed it up. The Bengals were right in holding out because they got what they wanted in the end. The fact the Browns are incompetent doesn't shift the blame here. Had it come out after that the Bengals accepted a trade for a 2nd when the Browns were willing to go up to a 2nd and a 3rd people would have lost their minds, you included.

For perspective, the Bills and Panthers came to an agreement within the last 5 minutes of the deadline and got their paperwork in. The Browns and Bengals came to one with 15 minutes left, Bengals got the paperwork in and the Browns didn't.

[Whatever]

(11-01-2017, 10:24 AM)ochocincos Wrote: This is still partly on the Bengals because of the ridiculous price tag they had on McCarron. They should have been willing to shop McCarron for a 2nd rounder, nothing more. If Garropolo only fetches a 2nd rounder, McCarron should not fetch more than that. The fact the Browns became desperate enough to cave to those outrageous terms is a different topic, but this deal probably would have gotten done before the deadline if Brown wasn't asking for so much in return. What this also indicates to me is that Cleveland seems to be willing to move on from Kizer already. And if McCarron does become RFA vs UFA, I'd slap a 2nd round tender on him and let the Browns take him that way.

I disagree.  The Bengals came down from a 1st rounder after the Garrapolo trade.  A 2nd and a 3rd is steep, but you're trading a QB to a division rival.  The Browns said no, then panicked at the last minute and caved.  Literally, the only reason this came down to the deadline was indecision on the Browns FO part.  

[*ochocincos*]

(11-01-2017, 11:13 AM)Whatever Wrote: I disagree.  The Bengals came down from a 1st rounder after the Garrapolo trade.  A 2nd and a 3rd is steep, but you're trading a QB to a division rival.  The Browns said no, then panicked at the last minute and caved.  Literally, the only reason this came down to the deadline was indecision on the Browns FO part.  

You bring up a good point regarding the division rival. Perhaps it wouldn't have been a 2nd and 3rd if it were to a team outside of the division.
I am really just frustrated with how much compensation this team asks for when it comes to trades. It always feels unreasonable and I don't blame other teams for wanting to give up so much for what I at least see as talent not worth the price.
I also would like to see SOMETHING in return for AJ McCarron, so seeing nothing is irritating. He clearly wants to be on a team that gives him a starting opportunity and offers very little value unless the Bengals are contenders (which they are not).

[*Synric*]

(11-01-2017, 11:28 AM)ochocincos Wrote: You bring up a good point regarding the division rival. Perhaps it wouldn't have been a 2nd and 3rd if it were to a team outside of the division.
I am really just frustrated with how much compensation this team asks for when it comes to trades. It always feels unreasonable and I don't blame other teams for wanting to give up so much for what I at least see as talent not worth the price.
I also would like to see SOMETHING in return for AJ McCarron, so seeing nothing is irritating. He clearly wants to be on a team that gives him a starting opportunity and offers very little value unless the Bengals are contenders (which they are not).

I think the Bengals feel there is no point dealing for only a 2nd when they are likely to get that same return due to RFA. 

As far as the McCarron RFA status as I understand it AJ is fighting it but it's extremely likely he's to be an RFA cuz he missed the first 13 weeks of his rookie season on thr NFI.

[depthchart]

So called "last minute" agreements are the Norm and most teams are prepared to properly process them.

An article from Cleveland.com talks about a rift between the Cleveland Coaches and Front Office.

Coaches upset that Front Office Execs left the Office early the night before the Trade Deadline and did not make a play for Garoppolo.

Then Hue pushing to get McCarron.

Mike Brown almost put the screws to Cleveland and I don't fault him for the deal not being processed.

My guess is that a Cleveland Front Office person didn't like the deal yet wanted to make the Coaches think that he was willing to do what they wanted but it just got fouled up. Just a guess.

This tells me:

* Hue may be desperate to keep his job.

* Brown's Front Office likely wants a High 1st Round Rookie QB in next year's Draft over either Garoppolo or McCarron.

* Bengals still think they have a shot to win this season. May not want to face the Browns with McCarron and possibly lose in a few weeks.

* Mike Brown factored in his belief that the Bengals can still get decent value for McCarron later & actually had a Great Deal now only to have the other side do the unexpected after they had agreed.

[Luvnit2]

(11-01-2017, 11:50 AM)depthchart Wrote: So called "last minute" agreements are the Norm and most teams are prepared to properly process them.

An article from Cleveland.com talks about a rift between the Cleveland Coaches and Front Office.

Coaches upset that Front Office Execs left the Office early the night before the Trade Deadline and did not make a play for Garoppolo.

Then Hue pushing to get McCarron.

Mike Brown almost put the screws to Cleveland and I don't fault him for the deal not being processed.

My guess is that a Cleveland Front Office person didn't like the deal yet wanted to make the Coaches think that he was willing to do what they wanted but it just got fouled up. Just a guess.

This tells me:

  * Hue may be desperate to keep his job.

  * Brown's Front Office likely wants a High 1st Round Rookie QB in next year's Draft over either Garoppolo or McCarron.

  * Bengals still think they have a shot to win this season. May not want to face the Browns with McCarron and possibly lose in a few weeks.

  * Mike Brown factored in his belief that the Bengals can still get decent value for McCarron later & actually had a Great Deal now only to have the other side do the unexpected after they had agreed.

My only comment is if what you said is correct, why did the signed documents arrive 5 minutes late? Why did they sign them at all?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

Brownies gon' Brown.

Not on the Bengals at all, in this instance.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-01-2017, 11:41 AM)Synric Wrote: I think the Bengals feel there is no point dealing for only a 2nd when they are likely to get that same return due to RFA. 

As far as the McCarron RFA status as I understand it AJ is fighting it but it's extremely likely he's to be an RFA cuz he missed the first 13 weeks of his rookie season on thr NFI.

If the arbitrator decides his first year does count and he becomes UFA, the best the Bengals get is a compensatory pick for the 2019 draft. Now that McCarron hasn't been traded, there's a lot of risk involved based on this arbitration.
The Bengals should have known this could happen and done what they could to move him for a 2nd ASAP, not relying on RFA designation. At least IMO.

[*Synric*]

(11-01-2017, 12:02 PM)ochocincos Wrote: If the arbitrator decides his first year does count and he becomes UFA, the best the Bengals get is a compensatory pick for the 2019 draft. Now that McCarron hasn't been traded, there's a lot of risk involved based on this arbitration.
The Bengals should have known this could happen and done what they could to move him for a 2nd ASAP, not relying on RFA designation. At least IMO.

AJ McCarron is fighting it yes, but he really doesn't have a leg to stand on. He was on the NFI for the first 13 games of his first year.

[depthchart]

(11-01-2017, 11:54 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: My only comment is if what you said is correct, why did the signed documents arrive 5 minutes late? Why did they sign them at all?

I am only guessing.

Front Office signs them to have it appear to the Coaches, that they were just clashing with, that the Front Office tried to do what the coaches wanted.

-OR-

The Brown's Front Office really did change their mind and agree with their Coaching Staff to get McCarron at that price and really tried to get the Paperwork in but screwed it up.

* There may be other potential possible explanations.

[Sled21]

(11-01-2017, 10:24 AM)ochocincos Wrote: This is still partly on the Bengals because of the ridiculous price tag they had on McCarron. They should have been willing to shop McCarron for a 2nd rounder, nothing more. If Garropolo only fetches a 2nd rounder, McCarron should not fetch more than that. The fact the Browns became desperate enough to cave to those outrageous terms is a different topic, but this deal probably would have gotten done before the deadline if Brown wasn't asking for so much in return. What this also indicates to me is that Cleveland seems to be willing to move on from Kizer already. And if McCarron does become RFA vs UFA, I'd slap a 2nd round tender on him and let the Browns take him that way.

Garropolo only fetched a 2nd because it is only for 8 games, then they have to franchise tag him or offer him a contract..... and after only 8 games his price would be iffy.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-01-2017, 12:09 PM)Synric Wrote: AJ McCarron is fighting it yes, but he really doesn't have a leg to stand on. He was on the NFI for the first 13 games of his first year.

Yea he very well may not get it. It's not leaning in his favor, but there's still a chance it could.
I'd just hate to see McCarron leave in FA with the only compensation being a 2019 comp pick.
Ideal situation at this point is McCarron is a RFA and tendered for a 2nd rounder and a team like the Browns offers the same to take him off the Bengals' hands.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-01-2017, 12:18 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Garropolo only fetched a 2nd because it is only for 8 games, then they have to franchise tag him or offer him a contract..... and after only 8 games his price would be iffy.

Also a good point, but McCarron could be in the same boat based on his arbitration hearing. You'd have to assume the 49ers were willing to give that up for Garropolo with intentions of signing him to a new contract in the offseason, not let him walk for a comp pick. It's not like the 49ers were in contention or anything to need a QB for the remainder of this season that would make or break the season.

[*PhilHos*]

I still think this was all a ploy by the Bengals front office to keep us from lambasting the team for doing nothing about the offensive line.

[Sled21]

(11-01-2017, 12:22 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Also a good point, but McCarron could be in the same boat based on his arbitration hearing. You'd have to assume the 49ers were willing to give that up for Garropolo with intentions of signing him to a new contract in the offseason, not let him walk for a comp pick. It's not like the 49ers were in contention or anything to need a QB for the remainder of this season that would make or break the season.

I don't think they would get a comp pick if Jimmy G walks, as his contract will be expired... that's the point, he brings 8 games and that is it. I think SF was insane to give a 2nd for that unless they plan on rolling with him and offering him a huge contract. Plus, word is they are in the middle of the Kirk Cousins chase....

[*ochocincos*]

(11-01-2017, 12:45 PM)Sled21 Wrote: I don't think they would get a comp pick if Jimmy G walks, as his contract will be expired... that's the point, he brings 8 games and that is it. I think SF was insane to give a 2nd for that unless they plan on rolling with him and offering him a huge contract. Plus, word is they are in the middle of the Kirk Cousins chase....

I thought whichever team had the rights to a player when they hit FA would have the possibility of getting a comp pick if that player went elsewhere in FA? Since SF would have the rights to Garropolo and he left to another team after this season, wouldn't that make SF eligible for comp pick based on his contract he were to sign and how well he did?