Some Fans Need an Eye Exam

[BMK]

(11-04-2017, 11:00 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote:  I don't see why Green wouldn't call out Dalton if he supposedly hated him. I think it's time we all admit that AJ most certainly seems to be an Andy fan. He's gone completely out of his way to repeatedly promote his guy, and they're friends off the field.

Who in the world ever said, or even hinted at, Green hating Dalton?? If you reread my post I said the opposite.

The sum of my posts was that I believe that AD is a good quarterback with potential to be exceptional.  I also believe that at least a small part of the team's overall attitude is attributed to his lack of natural leadership. 

I'm NOT a Dalton hater by any stretch. As I've said numerous times, I think he's got the physical skills to be a damn good QB.
Recently though, watching him laughing it up on the sidelines while getting our asses kicked, and totally bailing out on a 4th down play is what has brought his leadership into question for me.  Take those two optics away and my original post wouldn't exist. 

Maybe it's that, as the QB and overall team leader, I'm over estimating his influence on the team, or maybe I'm holding him to too high a standard.  It's a moot point...I'm not the one that signs his checks.

[Shake n Blake]

(11-03-2017, 12:21 PM)Okeana Wrote: Dalton is a serviceable quarterback at best who's had his stats padded by playing on a superior team.  remove AJ green and he does nothing, remove a good offensive line and he crumbles.  There is plenty of blame to go around on the team right now offensively, but Marvin Lewis needs to be held accountable and dalton needs to shoulder his portion of the blame as well.  Exactly how many open targets this year has he over thrown or under thrown ?  I wouldn't know because i stopped watching after the 2nd game, but this topic is up for a reason.

Really? AJ Green missed basically 12 games combined in 2014 and 2016 (that's including his 0 catch "decoy" game and the Bills game where got hurt early and did nothing). So we have plenty of evidence. Over that stretch of games, we saw Dalton drop these:

65.2% - 252 yards - 1 TD - 0 INT - 116.6 rating (24-10 win vs Falcons)
76.7% - 323 yards - 2 TD - 2 INT - 93.5 rating (37-37 tie vs Panthers)
75.0% - 266 yards - 0 TD - 1 INT - 89.3 rating (27-24 win vs Ravens) - 2 rushing TDs
68.0% - 146 yards - 2 TD - 1 INT - 93.5 rating (37-28 win vs Broncos) 
74.2% - 332 yards - 2 TD - 0 INT - 130.0 rating (32-14 win vs Eagles)
71.4% - 180 yards - 2 TD - 0 INT - 112.2 rating (23-10 win @ Browns)
64.3% - 226 yards - 1 TD - 0 INT - 101.2 rating (27-10 win vs Ravens)

Overall, here's Dalton's stats from the 12 games Green missed - with how he did with Green for those seasons in parenthesis:

6-5-1 record (10-9-1 with Green) - so the record is nearly identical
21.9 points per game (21.4 with Green) - the points are also nearly identical
64.3% (64.6% with Green) - again, nearly identical
6.86 YPA (7.55 YPA with Green - the only significant drop)
230.5 pass yards per game (241.9 with Green) 
1.42 pass/rush TDs per game (1.40 with Green)
86.7 passer rating (88.8 with Green)

When people say stuff like this, I have to wonder what they've been watching over the last few years. I'm not trying to knock you. Maybe you just forgot how good Dalton played when Green was out?

[Shake n Blake]

(11-04-2017, 11:43 AM)BMK Wrote: Who in the world ever said, or even hinted at, Green hating Dalton?? If you reread my post I said the opposite.

The sum of my posts was that I believe that AD is a good quarterback with potential to be exceptional.  I also believe that at least a small part of the team's overall attitude is attributed to his lack of natural leadership. 

I'm NOT a Dalton hater by any stretch. As I've said numerous times, I think he's got the physical skills to be a damn good QB.
Recently though, watching him laughing it up on the sidelines while getting our asses kicked, and totally bailing out on a 4th down play is what has brought his leadership into question for me.  Take those two optics away and my original post wouldn't exist. 

Maybe it's that, as the QB and overall team leader, I'm over estimating his influence on the team, or maybe I'm holding him to too high a standard.  It's a moot point...I'm not the one that signs his checks.

I guess I focused too much on these lines: 

Quote:I was saying you forgot about AJ's frustration and rant after the Houston game about him not getting the ball.

AJ depends very much on Dalton for him to be successful. What do you think he's going to say?

But after reading it again, it's obvious I misread you. Apologies.

I kinda wish you would've focused more on the first reply I made, as that was the better post anyway. 

[Rattler]

Some fans true knowledge of football can be easily tucked away in a thimble.

They (football ignorant) gave Kenny Anderson the same grief in the 1970's and even cheered him being seriously injured,
but alas the same wetawds were there to polish his knob on our run to XVI.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-04-2017, 10:12 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Well we've had a good pass-blocking OLine, and an average run game, and AJ Green and Eifert...which is better than 80% of the league...but you have to look at the hidden things. Organizational culture. It's going to be hard for any QB to come in and win here.

Many philosophical reasons - not valuing Centers and Guards. Letting free agents go for Comp picks. History - When you don't win a playoff win for 26 years...you EXPECT to lose.

A new coach has probably 3-4 years to come in and change the culture. Beyond that...he just becomes part of the existing losing cultural timeline. Marvin IS now a big part of the 26+ year playoff drought.

People say IF Aaron Rodgers were here we'd win. Yes - IF current Packers incarnation of Rodgers was here, we'd win...but IF the Bengals drafted him...he likely wouldn't have turned out as good. That's the hidden.

Meh....when your run game is consistently in the 20s out of 32 teams....that's below average.

[Shake n Blake]

(11-04-2017, 03:07 PM)Wyche Wrote: Meh....when your run game is consistently in the 20s out of 32 teams....that's below average.

Not to mention Eifert has barely played, so it's kinda hard to tout him as a weapon. Also Dalton is headed for his 3rd season out of 7 with 41+ sacks, so I'm not sure the pass blocking has been all that, either.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-04-2017, 05:33 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Not to mention Eifert has barely played, so it's kinda hard to tout him as a weapon. Also Dalton is headed for his 3rd season out of 7 with 41+ sacks, so I'm not sure the pass blocking has been all that, either.

Honestly, without signing a bunch of free agents...we'd have to have 2 REALLY GREAT drafts in a row for Dalton and Green to win a SB here. Or to even have an elite offense.

It's likely not going to happen.

We need 4 new offensive lineman that are good. You know if we bring in 4 rookies that they'll make mistakes and take time to grow.

Then we need a #2 WR. Could it be Ross? Who knows.

Oh...and IF we fix all of that next year...which I doubt we do...we'll be staring at Atkins and Dunlap being free agents. IF either leave it's a major blow.

[*Synric*]

(11-04-2017, 05:43 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Honestly, without signing a bunch of free agents...we'd have to have 2 REALLY GREAT drafts in a row for Dalton and Green to win a SB here. Or to even have an elite offense.

It's likely not going to happen.

We need 4 new offensive lineman that are good. You know if we bring in 4 rookies that they'll make mistakes and take time to grow.

Then we need a #2 WR. Could it be Ross? Who knows.

Oh...and IF we fix all of that next year...which I doubt we do...we'll be staring at Atkins and Dunlap being free agents. IF either leave it's a major blow.

I disagree. If they hit on a tackle and an interior lineman they'd be championship worthy.

Hell with Hopkins playing better each week if 1 tackle stepped up with Andre manning the other side they could be dangerous starting tommorrow..

[THE PISTONS]

(11-04-2017, 06:28 PM)Synric Wrote: I disagree. If they hit on a tackle and an interior lineman they'd be championship worthy.

Hell with Hopkins playing better each week if 1 tackle stepped up with Andre Manning the other side they could be dangerous starting tommorrow..

No way...because last year with a Pro Bowl Tackle in Whitworth and near Pro Bowl Guard in Zeitler...we won 6.5 games.

The only way we're championship level is if guys like Ross are Pro Bowl caliber guys...which they're not.

[*Synric*]

(11-04-2017, 06:31 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: No way...because last year with a Pro Bowl Tackle in Whitworth and near Pro Bowl Guard in Zeitler...we won 6.5 games.

The only way we're championship level is if guys like Ross are Pro Bowl caliber guys...which they're not.

Zampese killed 2016. In 7 games last year they were within 5 points. They won 1 lost 5 and tied 1. We are talking about just slightly better playcalling in the redzone to turn from 6-10 to a playoff team.

PS: Not to mention the awful kicking game..

[THE PISTONS]

(11-04-2017, 06:38 PM)Synric Wrote: Zampese killed 2016. In 7 games last year they were within 5 points. They won 1 lost 5 and tied 1. We are talking about just slightly better playcalling in the redzone to turn from 6-10 to a playoff team.

PS: Not to mention the awful kicking game..

You could look at any team and be like if you change this and change that and if this close loss was a win they'd be a contender.

Our running game is horrible. I don't see 2 rookies coming in on the line and making it considerably better. It will be better just not championship level better.

[*Synric*]

(11-04-2017, 06:47 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: You could look at any team and be like if you change this and change that and if this close loss was a win they'd be a contender.

Our running game is horrible. I don't see 2 rookies coming in on the line and making it considerably better. It will be better just not championship level better.

Then why draft lineman at all if it's not gonna help?


Do you replace Hopkins? He's played 3 games this season and has improved over the last 3. Teo lineman just two could turn this team around next season and like I said if 1 tackle just 1 besides Smith could get push in thr run game they could be alot more dangerous than they are now.

[Shake n Blake]

(11-04-2017, 05:43 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Honestly, without signing a bunch of free agents...we'd have to have 2 REALLY GREAT drafts in a row for Dalton and Green to win a SB here. Or to even have an elite offense.

It's likely not going to happen.

We need 4 new offensive lineman that are good. You know if we bring in 4 rookies that they'll make mistakes and take time to grow.

Then we need a #2 WR. Could it be Ross? Who knows.

Oh...and IF we fix all of that next year...which I doubt we do...we'll be staring at Atkins and Dunlap being free agents. IF either leave it's a major blow.

I think we're one really good draft and an o-line coach away from a playoff loss. Replace Ogbuehi and Bodine with good players and the offense is good enough...assuming we can finally run a bit under the new coach.

That said...The draft is hard to rely on for a quick fix. What if we draft a kid that just can't get it for whatever reason? A smart organization would hedge their bets and probably bring in a veteran lineman. A veteran upgrade to LaFell might not be a bad idea. Somebody like a Ted Ginn or Torrey Smith that can bring the speed if Ross isn't ready.

I called for these things last year, but unfortunately they inexplicably decided to roll with the same guys that tanked our 2016 season. Heck, they even let our 2 best linemen leave without even attempting to replace them. They could not have done a worse job fixing the line this past off-season. It's as if they wanted it to get worse.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-04-2017, 06:58 PM)Synric Wrote: Then why draft lineman at all if it's not gonna help?


Do you replace Hopkins? He's played 3 games this season and has improved over the last 3. Teo lineman just two could turn this team around next season and like I said if 1 tackle just 1 besides Smith could get push in thr run game they could be alot more dangerous than they are now.

I'm not saying it's not going to help. Chances are it will. Our guys are really horrible.

I'm saying that we're not 1 good draft away from a championship.

Fans often overestimate the production we'll get from draft picks in Year 1.

Look we thought we had an amazing draft this year and have got nothing from Ross. Mixon has a low ypc average. Willis is a depth defensive end that looks decent. Lawson is making a big impact in the pass rush...but at the end of the day he has 7 tackles and 4.5 sacks.

Rookies in Year 1 don't turn you from a bad team to a Super Bowl contender.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-04-2017, 07:17 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I think we're one really good draft and an o-line coach away from a playoff loss. Replace Ogbuehi and Bodine with good players and the offense is good enough...assuming we can finally run a bit under the new coach.

That said...The draft is hard to rely on for a quick fix. What if we draft a kid that just can't get it for whatever reason? A smart organization would hedge their bets and probably bring in a veteran lineman. A veteran upgrade to LaFell might not be a bad idea. Somebody like a Ted Ginn or Torrey Smith that can bring the speed if Ross isn't ready.

I called for these things last year, but unfortunately they inexplicably decided to roll with the same guys that tanked our 2016 season. Heck, they even let our 2 best linemen leave without even attempting to replace them. They could not have done a worse job fixing the line this past off-season. It's as if they wanted it to get worse.

See I think Hopkins needs to go too at minimum.

I think Fisher and Ced are equally bad. I think the Bengals would replace Fisher before Ced because of contract status.

Like you said the draft isn't a sure fix. 1st Round picks have a 40% hit rate. We could draft a Tackle in Round 1, Guard in Round 2, and Center in Round 3 and fans would be talking Super Bowl. The odds of all 3 of those guys being good starters Day 1 are really low.

Out of any draft where you have 7 picks...you're lucky if 2 guys end up quality starters. That's what's tough about not signing free agents.

I along with several others were screaming for them to sign a Guard like Ronald Leary. Leary currently grades out at 83.3 by PFF as the #7 ranked Guard.

[*Synric*]

(11-04-2017, 07:49 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: See I think Hopkins needs to go too at minimum.

I think Fisher and Ced are equally bad. I think the Bengals would replace Fisher before Ced because of contract status.

Like you said the draft isn't a sure fix. 1st Round picks have a 40% hit rate. We could draft a Tackle in Round 1, Guard in Round 2, and Center in Round 3 and fans would be talking Super Bowl. The odds of all 3 of those guys being good starters Day 1 are really low.

Out of any draft where you have 7 picks...you're lucky if 2 guys end up quality starters. That's what's tough about not signing free agents.

I along with several others were screaming for them to sign a Guard like Ronald Leary. Leary currently grades out at 83.3 by PFF as the #7 ranked Guard.

So you would replace Fisher and Hopkins in their first year of consistent snaps? Even though it's common knowledge most lineman take their step their second year of playing time.

You like to mention DeCastro alot. What you don't mention is thay DeCastro missed his first year due to injury and was Below average his second. He took a huge step in his 3rd year (second playing) and earned and extention.


As for Leary he went to thr Broncos on thr first day of free agency. You act like all they have to do is extend an offer and they automaticly sign. You don't mention that there are ALOT of teams with offensive line issues. He had a chance to go ALOT of places and he chose Denver.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-04-2017, 08:11 PM)Synric Wrote: So you would replace Fisher and Hopkins in their first year of consistent snaps? Even though it's common knowledge most lineman take their step their second year of playing time.

You like to mention DeCastro alot. What you don't mention is thay DeCastro missed his first year due to injury and was Below average his second. He took a huge step in his 3rd year (second playing) and earned and extention.


As for Leary he went to thr Broncos on thr first day of free agency. You act like all they have to do is extend an offer and they automaticly sign. You don't mention that there are ALOT of teams with offensive line issues. He had a chance to go ALOT of places and he chose Denver.

I didn't say I'd replace Fisher...I said I think the Bengals will because Ced has a longer contract. It's how they roll.

Hopkins is beyond horrible. He needs replaced. Allowing him to start next year would be throwing the season away. Hopkins and Bodine are the Top 2 issues on the line. The Tackles are bad too...but Hopkins and Bodine are Terrible. Guys sack Dalton inside without being touched.

re: DeCastro - He was never as bad as the guys we're starting now. No rookie is going to come in and be an All-Pro. If they are average to below average that's good as a rookie...but to say DeCastro was terrible is something Bengal fans manufactured to try to justify taking Zeitler over him.

re: Leary - Did we make an offer to him? You know we're actually allowed to aggressively target external free agents and make offers on the 1st day. Nope. Guess what we did instead? We waited and waited and waited and didn't offer anyone contracts until we offered a career RT who we let go before a contract to come in and play a position he never played before in the NFL.

There were plenty of other lineman out there. Sullivan was a Center that was available into the season that would help. Brandon Albert at Tackle. The Bengals still have cap space and haven't looked at those guys.

[BengalsRocker]

(11-04-2017, 05:33 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Not to mention Eifert has barely played, so it's kinda hard to tout him as a weapon. Also Dalton is headed for his 3rd season out of 7 with 41+ sacks, so I'm not sure the pass blocking has been all that, either.

I know you're gonna roast me for this, but did we really gain anything from drafting Eifert?

Yes, he had a short run of some TD totals but when it all comes down to it...  did he make a difference in the season's final outcome? 

Just about zip in post season.

Of course you know what they say about hindsight, but he certainly was a luxury pick and not one of need at the time.

Most thought Lapham was completely deranged when he predicted that 1st round pick.

If anything you'd think TE would have been more a priority this past draft with our starter's injury woes and looming contract ahead.

Just another head scratcher from this organization.

Sorry.  I know people hated Gresham but damn what an unreliable pick considering 2015 was an anomaly of a five season career for Mr. Glass(we assume).

[Shake n Blake]

(11-04-2017, 07:49 PM)Dr.THE PISTONS Wrote: See I think Hopkins needs to go too at minimum.

I think Fisher and Ced are equally bad. I think the Bengals would replace Fisher before Ced because of contract status.

Like you said the draft isn't a sure fix. 1st Round picks have a 40% hit rate. We could draft a Tackle in Round 1, Guard in Round 2, and Center in Round 3 and fans would be talking Super Bowl. The odds of all 3 of those guys being good starters Day 1 are really low.

Out of any draft where you have 7 picks...you're lucky if 2 guys end up quality starters. That's what's tough about not signing free agents.

I along with several others were screaming for them to sign a Guard like Ronald Leary. Leary currently grades out at 83.3 by PFF as the #7 ranked Guard.

In no way am I defending Hopkins or Fisher...I just think if you fix 2 spots with good players, our line would be adequate. Throw Andre in at RT and we'd really only have 1 bad linemen. You can get away with that. The other guys would make him look better.

And I'm totally with you on the draft. You use it to slowly build a team, but as a quick fix, it's terrible. You can't just draft a guy and say "boom, it's fixed".

[*Synric*]

(11-04-2017, 09:06 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I didn't say I'd replace Fisher...I said I think the Bengals will because Ced has a longer contract. It's how they roll.

Hopkins is beyond horrible. He needs replaced. Allowing him to start next year would be throwing the season away. Hopkins and Bodine are the Top 2 issues on the line. The Tackles are bad too...but Hopkins and Bodine are Terrible. Guys sack Dalton inside without being touched.

re: DeCastro - He was never as bad as the guys we're starting now. No rookie is going to come in and be an All-Pro. If they are average to below average that's good as a rookie...but to say DeCastro was terrible is something Bengal fans manufactured to try to justify taking Zeitler over him.

re: Leary - Did we make an offer to him? You know we're actually allowed to aggressively target external free agents and make offers on the 1st day. Nope. Guess what we did instead? We waited and waited and waited and didn't offer anyone contracts until we offered a career RT who we let go before a contract to come in and play a position he never played before in the NFL.

There were plenty of other lineman out there. Sullivan was a Center that was available into the season that would help. Brandon Albert at Tackle. The Bengals still have cap space and haven't looked at those guys.

Lol its funny Hopkins has improved every week aka the last 3 games ( injur3d game one kised houston and greenbay played half of thr Bills game) and according to the site you quote weekly PFF he was thr highest graded lineman with a 70 something against the Colts. (That's with a 0 protection scheme)

DeCastro looked overwhelmed his rookie year in thr preseaons he was in skates alot and was Below average his second after his knee injury. He turned it on in his third season in Pittsburgh.


As for your free agents list...Why didn't Green Bay sign Leary Albert or Sullivan....Why didn't the Jets Texans Seahawks Giants Lions sign all of those guys they have offensive line troubles too...because it's not as easy as calling them and saying here's a 50 you are playing in us now.

And yes you keep mentioning replacing Fisher did in this very thread at least once by saying 4 lineman need replaced.