I keep hearing that Marvin and Dalton are the problem

[THE PISTONS]

(11-09-2017, 01:22 PM)Wyche Wrote: He would face some pretty daunting obstacles here for sure.....

I think what a lot of people on this board don't get is: They see we have potential HOFers in Green and Atkins. Then good players in Dunlap and Dalton and Burfict. So they're like wow we have some really good players.

But the NFL more than any other sport is about top end talent, but also how good your worst starters are. You can get by with a couple Poor starters. And maybe 1-2 more below average guys.

But you can't get by with 8 Poor to Below Average starters.

Then the debate becomes are they like this because of coaching? Or were they bad picks that didn't fit the scheme? Were they not developed.

EVERY player in the NFL was a good player in college...so it's east to say Bodine was a great Center in college and the Bengals coaches ruined him. But, maybe he should have sat and watched for a Year instead of being rushed into a starting job Year 1 because the front office didn't acquire a different Center.

[Bengalholic]

(11-09-2017, 01:17 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: And I agree...he never took the team to elite and needs to go.

So to be a coach of the Bengals, the next guy will need to possess the skillset to rebuild the team to competitive, then he'll also have to be a great motivator and tactician.

I think that's a lot of diverse skills to want in 1 guy. That's why the shortest path is to hire a GM and let the coach focus on coaching.

It's interesting when you think about...Marvin has had 7 winning seasons and and made the postseason 7 times...and has not won a single playoff game.

Sam Wyche only had 3 winning seasons and only made the postseason twice...but won 3 playoff games and made it to a Super Bowl.

At some point, it boils down to taking advantage of your opportunities and making the most of them - something Marvin had repeatedly failed to do.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-09-2017, 01:31 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: It's interesting when you think about...Marvin has had 7 winning seasons and and made the postseason 7 times...and has not won a single playoff game.

Sam Wyche only had 3 winning seasons and only made the postseason twice...but won 3 playoff games and made it to a Super Bowl.

It's all about taking advantage of your opportunities and making the most of them - something Marvin had repeatedly failed to do.

Wyche was aggressive and on the cutting edge.....when he had the talent, he knew what to do with it.  Mediocre Merv, not so much.

[*PhilHos*]

(11-09-2017, 12:36 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Is Marvin a great coach? No. But he took a team that was as bad as the Browns are now to respectable.
Is Dalton a great QB? No. But he plays for a team that can't run the ball, doesn't invest in interior offensive line, and retains poor coaches.

My questions are: IF Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers were drafted here do you think they would have reached the same levels in their careers? Also, IF Mike Tomlin were our HC and Marvin coached the Steelers, do you think Tomlin would have led us to a Super Bowl and Pittsburgh would be the playoff underachiever that we are?

The Bengals definitely do things different than the rest of the NFL. Having a small scouting staff and relying on scouting services and coaches to scout. Giving jobs to guys like Paul Alexander for some 20+ years. I mean the guy survived the 90's. That's all I have to say.

Not valuing C and G. Lowballing Zeitler with a $5.5 million offer according to Lapham while DeCastro signs for $10 million a year.

Letting some of our best players leave and touting getting a Comp pick.

Not relying much on free agency.

Allowing obvious holes on the team go unfixed.

Yet...fans blame Pickens, Scott, Palmer, Dillon, etc.

How much success can ANY Coach or QB have under the above constraints?

Here's the thing: Merv is a decent coach. And if he were the coach of the Steelers, he probably would have a playoff win, but a Super Bowl win? No, I don't think so. Merv's problem is that he doesn't seem to learn from his mistakes. He's found a way of doing things and doesn't change things up when his way of doing things doesn't work or used to work but works no longer (sound familiar?). 

Merv is a good judge of talent but whether it's him or his position coaches, the Bengals have not been good at maximizing that talent or helping players reach their potential.

I believe Merv's been a good coach overall, but if he'd only work on his own issues, he could be a really great coach. At this point, though, it's too late and I think he can only improve elsewhere.

[*bengalfan74*]

(11-09-2017, 01:13 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: The thing is, Marvin did have success, in terms of the regular season and reaching the playoffs...including a very impressive 5 year run.

The problem is, that as a coach, he hasn't shown himself to be capable of taking a team to the next step, or to regularly compete when the lights are the brightest.

Had he been able to win a couple of those playoff games, we would probably being viewing him much differently. Instead, he - and his teams - have failed on every occasion.

At some point, despite the owner or other obstacles, he has been in position to change his own narrative multiple times and hasn't been able to do so. IMO, he's an OK coach, capable of building a roster and creating a certain level of success...but that's where he plateaus, and any hopes of getting beyond that point fall victim to his limitations as HC.

Exactly Holic

(11-09-2017, 01:17 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: And I agree...he never took the team to elite and needs to go.

So to be a coach of the Bengals, the next guy will need to possess the skillset to rebuild the team to competitive, then he'll also have to be a great motivator and tactician.

I think that's a lot of diverse skills to want in 1 guy. That's why the shortest path is to hire a GM and let the coach focus on coaching.

Pistons you keep basically arguing changing the head coach isn't the answer, it's not Marvin's fault. And in a way you're right

Look we all know the elephant in the room is Mike Brown. We all know he need to hire a GM and step down from running everything.

NEWS FLASH FOR YA he's not gonna do that and we can't change it or have any hope for that to change. Until the inevitable happens.

SO the best we can hope for is that Mike will some how some way finally come to his senses and embrace change. Hire a new HC and let him pick his own staff. This crew is surrounded by mediocre and it's a losing culture and this bunch has to go. Then HOPEFULLY this new head coach can somehow wrestle some control form MB, instill some confidence and accountability on this team. Fix the O-line (again have to cross fingers Mike will use FA to fix line) and get rid of some bad players.

That's the only hope we've got. Mike's not quiting or hiring a GM you can forget that !

[THE PISTONS]

(11-09-2017, 01:31 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: It's interesting when you think about...Marvin has had 7 winning seasons and and made the postseason 7 times...and has not won a single playoff game.

Sam Wyche only had 3 winning seasons and only made the postseason twice...but won 3 playoff games and made it to a Super Bowl.

At some point, it boils down to taking advantage of your opportunities and making the most of them - something Marvin had repeatedly failed to do.

That's part of it...but most of our playoff appearances we were underdogs with fatal flaws on the roster.

I keep thinking What if we signed Alex Mack a few years ago? etc.

We had the cap space. We just didn't put the best roster possible out there. We always left a few bullets in the chamber.

[XenoMorph]

(11-09-2017, 12:48 PM)Wyche Wrote: Oh I agree, but "noodle arm", "red headed rifle"......blah, blah.  At one time, I think Merv could have gotten us a W......if only the FO would have signed one or two REAL FAs to fill the few gaps we had.  With the gaps we have now, it's like the little Dutch boy trying to plug a crumbling Hoover Dam with his fingers.

its amazing what we have accomplished with the rosters we have had...  2011 2012 2014 even making the playoffs those years didn't seem possible...  I think marvin is a good but handcuffed coach here. 


Only 2013 I feel we had the roster to win and blew it... 2015 the defense almost pulled off the imposible for us... (0 credit to AJM and his 3 qtrs. of shit) but without our QB who was playing at an MVP level just 2 years ago weren't progressing thru the playoffs far even if we did get that win.

But he has done good with what he has.  Now it took marvin 8 years a strike to get the little control he actually has..

what will the next head coach have?

[Bengalholic]

(11-09-2017, 01:36 PM)Wyche Wrote: Wyche was aggressive and on the cutting edge.....when he had the talent, he knew what to do with it.  Mediocre Merv, not so much.

Yup, and that's the big difference. When Sam finally got his team in position to make noise in the postseason, he turned it up a notch and found ways to win, even with a sore-armed Boomer in '88 run.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-09-2017, 01:38 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Here's the thing: Merv is a decent coach. And if he were the coach of the Steelers, he probably would have a playoff win, but a Super Bowl win? No, I don't think so. Merv's problem is that he doesn't seem to learn from his mistakes. He's found a way of doing things and doesn't change things up when his way of doing things doesn't work or used to work but works no longer (sound familiar?). 

Merv is a good judge of talent but whether it's him or his position coaches, the Bengals have not been good at maximizing that talent or helping players reach their potential.

I believe Merv's been a good coach overall, but if he'd only work on his own issues, he could be a really great coach. At this point, though, it's too late and I think he can only improve elsewhere.

Why wouldn't he win a Super Bowl with the Steelers? They have a GM and Owner who makes sure they have good assistants there. Assistants handle the X's and O's of a game.

Here assistants are basically give lifetime jobs and when they move on the person below them on the org chart just shifts up 1 rung. The Steelers hire the most qualified person.

[Bengalholic]

(11-09-2017, 01:39 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: That's part of it...but most of our playoff appearances we were underdogs with fatal flaws on the roster.

I keep thinking What if we signed Alex Mack a few years ago? etc.

We had the cap space. We just didn't put the best roster possible out there. We always left a few bullets in the chamber.

Teams that were underdogs have won playoff games.

Teams with multiple injuries have won playoff games.

Teams on the road have won playoff games.

Teams with less talent have won playoff games.

Teams have overcome obstacles to win a playoff game.

Marvin's teams had 7 chances...under different circumstances...and couldn't find a way to win one. He and his teams have done the improbable when it comes to new levels of playoff futility. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-09-2017, 01:39 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: That's part of it...but most of our playoff appearances we were underdogs with fatal flaws on the roster.

I keep thinking What if we signed Alex Mack a few years ago? etc.

We had the cap space. We just didn't put the best roster possible out there. We always left a few bullets in the chamber.

Ask the Falcons how that worked out......

(11-09-2017, 01:41 PM)XenoMorph Wrote:
its amazing what we have accomplished with the rosters we have had...  2011 2012 2014 even making the playoffs those years didn't seem possible...  I think marvin is a good but handcuffed coach here. 


Only 2013 I feel we had the roster to win and blew it...  2015 the defense almost pulled off the imposible for us... (0 credit to AJM and his 3 qtrs. of shit)  but without our QB who was playing at an MVP level just 2 years ago weren't progressing thru the playoffs far even if we did get that win.

But he has done good with what he has.  Now it took marvin 8 years a strike to get the little control he actually has..

what will the next head coach have?

There were some good OCs during that run too, don't forget.....and as for the roster, it all goes back to what some of us have been saying for YEARS.  Make a damn move in FA FFS!!!!!!!!!!  

I think Merv is stale and Bungalized, time to move on.....with the entire staff.  Fresh start is what this team needs.  As I noted earlier, had they given him a couple upper tier FAs (like an Alex Mack, or Dansby in his prime....etc) during that run from 2013-2015, he may have won a PO game or two.

(11-09-2017, 01:42 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Yup, and that's the big difference. When Sam finally got his team in position to make noise in the postseason, he turned it up a notch and found ways to win, even with a sore-armed Boomer in '88 run.

Yep, no one really knew Boomer was hurt until well after the fact.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-09-2017, 01:38 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Exactly Holic


Pistons you keep basically arguing changing the head coach isn't the answer, it's not Marvin's fault. And in a way you're right

Look we all know the elephant in the room is Mike Brown. We all know he need to hire a GM and step down from running everything.

NEWS FLASH FOR YA he's not gonna do that and we can't change it or have any hope for that to change. Until the inevitable happens.

SO the best we can hope for is that Mike will some how some way finally come to his senses and embrace change. Hire a new HC and let him pick his own staff. This crew is surrounded by mediocre and it's a losing culture and this bunch has to go. Then HOPEFULLY this new head coach can somehow wrestle some control form MB, instill some confidence and accountability on this team. Fix the O-line (again have to cross fingers Mike will use FA to fix line) and get rid of some bad players.

That's the only hope we've got. Mike's not quiting or hiring a GM you can forget that !

For the record, I think Marvin should have been out 3-4 years ago and especially after the Steelers playoff game meltdown.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-09-2017, 01:41 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: its amazing what we have accomplished with the rosters we have had...  2011 2012 2014 even making the playoffs those years didn't seem possible...  I think marvin is a good but handcuffed coach here. 


Only 2013 I feel we had the roster to win and blew it...  2015 the defense almost pulled off the imposible for us... (0 credit to AJM and his 3 qtrs. of shit)  but without our QB who was playing at an MVP level just 2 years ago weren't progressing thru the playoffs far even if we did get that win.

But he has done good with what he has.  Now it took marvin 8 years a strike to get the little control he actually has..

what will the next head coach have?

I agree with all of this.

While we were a playoff team 7 times...most of the rosters have been middle of the pack except 1 or 2.

[*PhilHos*]

(11-09-2017, 01:45 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Why wouldn't he win a Super Bowl with the Steelers? They have a GM and Owner who makes sure they have good assistants there. Assistants handle the X's and O's of a game.

For the same reason we haven't won a single playoff game in 7 tries under Merv . We've had good teams with good coordinators, yet we routinely crap the bed in the playoffs. I think it goes to Merv's mentality. Merv has no killer instinct. No matter the score (well, unless we're trailing by a buttload of points), if there's a minute or less to go in the first half, he runs the ball and if the RB gets a huge gain , tries for a FG. Let's not forget Merv always goes conservative when we have a slim lead.

We can win a playoff game with this type of mentality, but we cannot win a Super Bowl unless we get the luckiest of breaks (i.e. fluke turnovers, once-in-a-lifetime performance from a skill position player, etc.).

[THE PISTONS]

(11-09-2017, 01:55 PM)PhilHos Wrote: For the same reason we haven't won a single playoff game in 7 tries under Merv . We've had good teams with good coordinators, yet we routinely crap the bed in the playoffs. I think it goes to Merv's mentality. Merv has no killer instinct. No matter the score (well, unless we're trailing by a buttload of points), if there's a minute or less to go in the first half, he runs the ball and if the RB gets a huge gain , tries for a FG. Let's not forget Merv always goes conservative when we have a slim lead.

We can win a playoff game with this type of mentality, but we cannot win a Super Bowl unless we get the luckiest of breaks (i.e. fluke turnovers, once-in-a-lifetime performance from a skill position player, etc.).

The lack of playoff success to me is just a carryover from our lack of success in primetime games against good teams.

When the lights come on...this team folds. The defense has folded a lot in the playoffs too. Yep...Zimmers defense. We give up running yards. Passing yards. There is no strength when the going gets tough.

[*bengalfan74*]

(11-09-2017, 01:50 PM)Wyche Wrote: Ask the Falcons how that worked out......


There were some good OCs during that run too, don't forget.....and as for the roster, it all goes back to what some of us have been saying for YEARS. Make a damn move in FA FFS!!!!!!!!!!

I think Merv is stale and Bungalized, time to move on.....with the entire staff.  Fresh start is what this team needs.  As I noted earlier, had they given him a couple upper tier FAs (like an Alex Mack, or Dansby in his prime....etc) during that run from 2013-2015, he may have won a PO game or two.


Yep, no one really knew Boomer was hurt until well after the fact.

I couldn't begin to tell ya how many words I typed on the mother ship arguing/begging for a top line FA at whatever position. And myself and nearly every rational member fully agrees on this:

You have to build a team thru the draft. But you must also fill holes and replace bad picks thru free agency, you have to ! But Mike Brown refuses. The draft is not now nor has been, nor ever will be sure fire. Case in point - Ogbuehi, Bodine, I could type 50 more names.

On a side note I'll believe until the day I die if Boomer was healthy we would have kicked the snot out of the 9ers.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-09-2017, 01:59 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I couldn't begin to tell ya how many words I typed on the mother ship arguing/begging for a top line FA at whatever position. And myself and nearly every rational member fully agrees on this:

You have to build a team thru the draft. But you must also fill holes and replace bad picks thru free agency, you have to ! But Mike Brown refuses. The draft is not now nor has been, nor ever will be sure fire. Case in point - Ogbuehi, Bodine, I could type 50 more names.

On a side note I'll believe until the day I die if Boomer was healthy we would have kicked the snot out of the 9ers.

I was right there with ya.....

[*PhilHos*]

(11-09-2017, 01:57 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The lack of playoff success to me is just a carryover from our lack of success in primetime games against good teams.

When the lights come on...this team folds. The defense has folded a lot in the playoffs too. Yep...Zimmers defense. We give up running yards. Passing yards. There is no strength when the going gets tough.

I don't disagree, but I think it starts with the way Merv prepares for games and handles decisions in game (i.e. halftime adjustments, etc.).

[Pat5775]

Currently, Marvin Lewis is the biggest problem on this team. Yes, I'd say he's now more of a detriment than Mike Brown.

Andy has struggled, sure. But this team has arguably the worst offensive line not only in team history but maybe in league history. Plus, Andy has been handcuffed by Marvin's incompetence for his entire career. It's not really fair to say Andy is subpar, especially when he was top 3 in the MVP race only two years ago. Give Andy a halfway decent offensive line and a head coach who has respect from the players and has a clue and see what he can do. I think a lot of people will be very pleasantly surprised.

Now, with all that said... If we do by some miracle have a new coach after this season and are picking in the top 5-10, we'd be crazy to not take one of these many potentially special QB's in the first round. The Oline can and should be fixed via FA and the following rounds in the draft. Will that happen? Probably not because Marv will probably have another meeting with Mike Brown and talk his way into more "control" and another extension a la 2010. 

That happens, look for more skill positions in the draft... Because this current Oline is fine. They just need to play better  

[*bengalfan74*]

(11-09-2017, 01:57 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The lack of playoff success to me is just a carryover from our lack of success in primetime games against good teams.

When the lights come on...this team folds. The defense has folded a lot in the playoffs too. Yep...Zimmers defense. We give up running yards. Passing yards. There is no strength when the going gets tough.

Exactly !

Like Philhos says Merv has no killer instinct. He's still playing HS football in 1978 on the NFL field of 2017. And when the going gets tough you've seen the deer in the head lights stare from him on the side lines. No fire at all !

We badly as there ever has been need a new HC. 15 seasons is enough