I Miss Marvin Jones.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(11-24-2017, 12:57 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Well when you put it that way...I'd probably trade Kirkpatrick and his contract for MLJ. 


Mehvin Jones has the 21st highest salary this year at WR. That's #1 money.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/average/wide-receiver/

I disagree on there not being 32 #1 WR's. Sure, a very small handful of teams are missing a legit #1, but other teams have a pair of guys that could be a #1. The Raiders with Cooper/Crabtree. The Bucs with DJax/Mike Evans. Texans with Hopkins/Fuller, and even the Ravens with Maclin/Wallace (although Flacco is hurting their numbers). 

Sure he has the 21st highest, but keep in mind you have people like Amari Cooper and Beckham Jr who are #1s but haven't been paid yet. Or Adam Theinlein who signed a relatively cheap extension after his breakout season, but not before this monster season where he became a #1. Granted there are also some #2s being paid more than Jones, likely due to being overpaid.. like Allen Hurns ($10m/yr) or the sheer stupidity of the Tavon Austin deal ($10.5m/yr) when he's not even really a good #3.

I will give you the DJax/Evans duo of #1s. That said I think Crabtree/Wallace/Maclin fall into the Decker/Tate/Jones category of good #2. They couldn't carry a team's WR corp as it's focal point.

Not sure why you even mentioned Will Fuller as the guy's played a season and a half, and still hasn't reached 1k career yards and is now on pace for 27 catches this season. I'm not sure I see that at all yet.


- - - - - - - - --

I guess the topic really comes down to your definition of what being a #1 WR entails. I view it as "if this player was the #1 focal point of the passing attack, could they carry the load alone?"

There's probably like 16-ish of them. (I admittedly didn't count or list them to myself.)

Just like how I don't think there are 32 "starting" QBs in the league at any given time. Sure there's 32 who start games, but they're not actual starters.

[grampahol]

Tears meet spilled milk.. 

[*SHRacerX*]

(11-24-2017, 01:02 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: When did I ever once defend the coaching?

Keep in mind these pinhead coaches are the same ones scouting and drafting these players. If you don't trust them to coach the player, why are you automatically assuming their scouting is good?

Almost like it isn't an either/or situation like you are fixated on. They can both suck.

Good players have had crappy coaches and still been good. Bad players with bad coaches will still be bad.


- - - - - - - - 

Ross was in the doghouse because he wasn't in shape, didn't know his routes, gave up on plays, AND fumbled.

Hunt only had one of those four.

No they aren't. 

And you are now buying the crap that Hobknob spins?  I have some land I would like to sell you.  

[Interceptor]

(11-24-2017, 08:37 AM)jeremydc Wrote: Bengals logic

[jeremydc]

(11-24-2017, 11:12 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: they offered marvin a very nice contract he wanted to be a #1 so we would have had to not have AJ for him to stay.

plenty of legit reasons to bash the bengals...  but you failed here

not really. ie #27

[grampahol]

I'm sure every team wishes they could turn hindsight into foresight, but unfortunately it doesn't work like that. 
In the Bengals case they've managed to turn foresight into hindsight. 

[Shake n Blake]

(11-25-2017, 02:05 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: 1. Sure he has the 21st highest, but keep in mind you have people like Amari Cooper and Beckham Jr who are #1s but haven't been paid yet. Or Adam Theinlein who signed a relatively cheap extension after his breakout season, but not before this monster season where he became a #1. Granted there are also some #2s being paid more than Jones, likely due to being overpaid.. like Allen Hurns ($10m/yr) or the sheer stupidity of the Tavon Austin deal ($10.5m/yr) when he's not even really a good #3.

2. I will give you the DJax/Evans duo of #1s. That said I think Crabtree/Wallace/Maclin fall into the Decker/Tate/Jones category of good #2. They couldn't carry a team's WR corp as it's focal point.

Not sure why you even mentioned Will Fuller as the guy's played a season and a half, and still hasn't reached 1k career yards and is now on pace for 27 catches this season. I'm not sure I see that at all yet.


- - - - - - - - --

3. I guess the topic really comes down to your definition of what being a #1 WR entails. I view it as "if this player was the #1 focal point of the passing attack, could they carry the load alone?"

There's probably like 16-ish of them. (I admittedly didn't count or list them to myself.)

Just like how I don't think there are 32 "starting" QBs in the league at any given time. Sure there's 32 who start games, but they're not actual starters.

1. Well if you want to play that game, then keep in mind that Jones signed his deal last year, and contracts will only get better as time goes by. Regardless, 21st is 21st. Jones is getting paid #1 money right now...albeit not superstar #1 money.

2. I will give me all of them. 

Maclin has led his teams in catches 5 times, yards 3 times and TD's 6 times. Considering that he's shared the field with DJax and Wallace for most of his career, that's impressive. Not every WR produces like AJ Green though. Same deal with Crabtree. Led his team in catches 5 times, yards 3 times and TDs 4 times. Wallace led his team in catches twice, yards 5 times and TDs 6 times. 

Now compare that to Marvin Jones, who I consider to be a rock solid #2. Jones has never led his team in catches or yards...and that's including 2 years playing opposite Golden Tate, who I consider to be the Lions' true #1.

I look at Crabs, Maclin and Wallace more as low-end 1's. They've proven capable of being the top dog in a team's WR corp. Again, not at a Julio Jones/AJ Green level, but with 32 teams out there, many teams have a Pierre Garcon, DJax, Golden Tate, Doug Baldwin type of #1.

I included Will Fuller because he's a 1st round pick that has flashed serious potential. In 4 games with a non-division 3 level QB, all he did was go for 279 yards and 7 TDs. Sure, small sample size...but I'm surely not the only one that thinks Fuller has a bright future once Watson gets back.

----------------------------------------------

3. Fair enough. I look at it a little differently. I think there's more talented WR's in the NFL than there are QB's. The top 10 WR's in the NFL are all game breakers. Superstar types. After that, there's a glut of WR's capable of "carrying the load" but aren't going to put up a 180 yard explosion very often. I think there's far more than 16 guys capable of carrying the load. It's closer to 32, because like I said - some teams have multiples.

If Amari Cooper, Maclin or Doug Baldwin was my team's top WR, I wouldn't feel bad at all. In fact, I might prefer that over an AJ Green or Julio Jones that gets QB money to play WR. 

[Derrick]

(11-24-2017, 11:44 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I was actually glad he didn't sign with us for the substantial dollar amount the Bengals were offering.  I had been clamoring to draft a vertical threat to replace Henry for some time, and Malone, Core, and Ross can all be that guy.  However, they have to get more snaps to make it work.  All this time for Lafell, who may be the ultimate pro and team player, is a waste of talent on the bench.  Lafell should be WR3 in the slot in rotation with Boyd and/or Erickson.  He is not an outside WR. 

IMO Dalton rarely gets time to throw deep to Malone, Core, or Ross because of Oline issues. So it will be difficult to develop these WRs into deep threats to open up Green.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(11-25-2017, 03:06 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. Well if you want to play that game, then keep in mind that Jones signed his deal last year, and contracts will only get better as time goes by. Regardless, 21st is 21st. Jones is getting paid #1 money right now...albeit not superstar #1 money.

2. I will give me all of them. 

Maclin has led his teams in catches 5 times, yards 3 times and TD's 6 times. Considering that he's shared the field with DJax and Wallace for most of his career, that's impressive. Not every WR produces like AJ Green though. Same deal with Crabtree. Led his team in catches 5 times, yards 3 times and TDs 4 times. Wallace led his team in catches twice, yards 5 times and TDs 6 times. 

Now compare that to Marvin Jones, who I consider to be a rock solid #2. Jones has never led his team in catches or yards...and that's including 2 years playing opposite Golden Tate, who I consider to be the Lions' true #1.

I look at Crabs, Maclin and Wallace more as low-end 1's. They've proven capable of being the top dog in a team's WR corp. Again, not at a Julio Jones/AJ Green level, but with 32 teams out there, many teams have a Pierre Garcon, DJax, Golden Tate, Doug Baldwin type of #1.

I included Will Fuller because he's a 1st round pick that has flashed serious potential. In 4 games with a non-division 3 level QB, all he did was go for 279 yards and 7 TDs. Sure, small sample size...but I'm surely not the only one that thinks Fuller has a bright future once Watson gets back.

----------------------------------------------

3. Fair enough. I look at it a little differently. I think there's more talented WR's in the NFL than there are QB's. The top 10 WR's in the NFL are all game breakers. Superstar types. After that, there's a glut of WR's capable of "carrying the load" but aren't going to put up a 180 yard explosion very often. I think there's far more than 16 guys capable of carrying the load. It's closer to 32, because like I said - some teams have multiples.

If Amari Cooper, Maclin or Doug Baldwin was my team's top WR, I wouldn't feel bad at all. In fact, I might prefer that over an AJ Green or Julio Jones that gets QB money to play WR. 

Come on Shake, you and I both know that's a weaksauce criteria for being a #1 right there.

Heck, RB Duke Johnson is leading the Browns this year in both catches and yards receiving. Andrew Hawkins led the Browns in both catches and yards in 2014. Jeremy Kerley led the 2016 49ers in catches and yards. That doesn't make them a #1 WR. Lol

Torrey Smith has led his teams in catches 1 time, yards 1 time, and touchdowns 4 times.
Julian Edelman has led his teams in catches 3 times, yards 2 times, and touchdowns 1 time.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I don't know, man. That Fuller sample size is just too small. Reminds me of when Sanu had that 3 game/4 TD streak his rookie season in limited play and people were saying "oh man, if he gets to play a whole season, he's going to score like 15 TDs!"

It's possible Fuller really has it, but I am not going to anoint the guy until it happens. Too much of that going around already, especially with young QBs. "The Sanchize", Luck being a HoFer before he ever took a snap, Kapernick being the next Montana, Newton/RG3 revolutionizing how the QB position would be played, etc.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Except Amari Cooper will be paid big money this offseason. He wasn't allowed to get a contract extension/raise yet due to the CBA. Gotta put in those three years on the rookie contract first.

Also....
Baldwin (7th season): 424 catches/5,627 yards (13.3 AVG)/40 TDs ... (averaged out per year)  65 catches/866 yards/6 TDs
Maclin (9th season): 505 catches/6,739 yards (13.3 AVG)/49 TDs ... (averaged out per year)  59 catches/793 yards/6 TDs
Green (7th season): 529 catches/7,878 yards (14.9 AVG)/55 TDs ... (averaged out per year)  81 catches/1,212 yards/8.5 TDs
J. Jones (7th season): 551 catches/8,396 yards (15.2 AVG)/41 TDs ... (averaged out per year)   85 catches/1,292 yards/6.5 TDs
(*on the averages, I just counted this year as a .5 for simplicity)

You take a HUGE quality hit if you actually think you'd prefer a Maclin or Baldwin than a Green or Jones, just because of the money. There's a reason they make more. They're basically 50% better/more productive than them.

If you took Baldwin over Julio, you'd lose out on 20 catches/426 yards/0.5 TDs of surplus production each year.
If you took Maclin over Green, you'd lose out on 22 catches/419 yards/2.5 TDs of surplus production each year.


Having a good #2 like them as your #1 is basically like giving up a whole extra #3 or #4 deep threat WR's year worth of free production. That is most certainly not an insignificant amount.

[Shake n Blake]

(11-25-2017, 08:07 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: 1. Come on Shake, you and I both know that's a weaksauce criteria for being a #1 right there.

Heck, RB Duke Johnson is leading the Browns this year in both catches and yards receiving. Andrew Hawkins led the Browns in both catches and yards in 2014. Jeremy Kerley led the 2016 49ers in catches and yards. That doesn't make them a #1 WR. Lol

Torrey Smith has led his teams in catches 1 time, yards 1 time, and touchdowns 4 times.
Julian Edelman has led his teams in catches 3 times, yards 2 times, and touchdowns 1 time.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

2. I don't know, man. That Fuller sample size is just too small. Reminds me of when Sanu had that 3 game/4 TD streak his rookie season in limited play and people were saying "oh man, if he gets to play a whole season, he's going to score like 15 TDs!"

It's possible Fuller really has it, but I am not going to anoint the guy until it happens. Too much of that going around already, especially with young QBs. "The Sanchize", Luck being a HoFer before he ever took a snap, Kapernick being the next Montana, Newton/RG3 revolutionizing how the QB position would be played, etc.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Except Amari Cooper will be paid big money this offseason. He wasn't allowed to get a contract extension/raise yet due to the CBA. Gotta put in those three years on the rookie contract first.

3. Also....
Baldwin (7th season): 424 catches/5,627 yards (13.3 AVG)/40 TDs ... (averaged out per year)  65 catches/866 yards/6 TDs
Maclin (9th season): 505 catches/6,739 yards (13.3 AVG)/49 TDs ... (averaged out per year)  59 catches/793 yards/6 TDs
Green (7th season): 529 catches/7,878 yards (14.9 AVG)/55 TDs ... (averaged out per year)  81 catches/1,212 yards/8.5 TDs
J. Jones (7th season): 551 catches/8,396 yards (15.2 AVG)/41 TDs ... (averaged out per year)   85 catches/1,292 yards/6.5 TDs
(*on the averages, I just counted this year as a .5 for simplicity)

You take a HUGE quality hit if you actually think you'd prefer a Maclin or Baldwin than a Green or Jones, just because of the money. There's a reason they make more. They're basically 50% better/more productive than them.

If you took Baldwin over Julio, you'd lose out on 20 catches/426 yards/0.5 TDs of surplus production each year.
If you took Maclin over Green, you'd lose out on 22 catches/419 yards/2.5 TDs of surplus production each year.


Having a good #2 like them as your #1 is basically like giving up a whole extra #3 or #4 deep threat WR's year worth of free production. That is most certainly not an insignificant amount.

1. If it was weak sauce, I wouldn't say it. Wake me when Duke Johnson or Andrew Hawkins have led their teams in multiple categories over multiple seasons. Weak sauce is comparing a guy who has done it once, to guys who have done it a bunch of times. 

-----------------------------------------------------------

2. Fair enough. I wouldn't blame anyone for not being sold. I like what I saw though, and he was a far better prospect coming out than a Marvin Jones (who had one big game, rather than a string of 4). Fuller missed the first few games of the season, then lit it up in all 4 games he played with Watson. Now that he has a terrible QB, he (and everyone else) is predictably disappearing. I think his string of games was a bit less fluky than Jones and his 4 TD, 1 game explosion.

-----------------------------------------------------------

3. Baldwin is not the receiver now that he was early in his career. You know that drags his averages down. Baldwin is working on his 3rd consecutive 1000 yard season with 28 TDs over that span. Also, it seems you did Baldwin's average season by taking his career totals, dividing them into his total games played, then averaging it out to 16 games. I prefer that method myself (it's more accurate), but...it seems you used a different method for Maclin, Green and Julio. 

Maclin's actual averages per 16 games played is: 73 catches/980 yards/7 TDs (I don't know many #2's that put up these numbers regularly)
Green's is 88 catches/1313 yards/9 TDs
Julio's is 99 catches/1509 yards/7 TDs

Now the mistake you make here is assuming this production would just "disappear". We wouldn't just lose 15 catches, 333 yards and 2 TD's by swapping Green for Maclin. Green has averaged 30 more targets (per 16 games) than Maclin. Those targets would go somewhere. Now I'm about to make a controversial statement. Not only do I wonder if this team would be better off without Green's monstrous contract, I also wonder if the offense wouldn't be better off spreading the ball around more. 

Green does command a lot of attention, but it's not as if WRs like Maclin get ignored. Green has a tendency to disappear at times, and when he does, I can't help but wonder if we'd be better off with a less expensive WR so we could shore up the line or a different area. Of course, this is the Bengals I'm talking about, and we wouldn't have to ponder such things if they'd just spend to cap.

Fwiw, I'd be interested to know some guys you consider to be a #1 but below Green and Julio.

[*SHRacerX*]

(11-25-2017, 05:03 PM)Derrick Wrote: IMO Dalton rarely gets time to throw deep to Malone, Core, or Ross because of Oline issues. So it will be difficult to develop these WRs into deep threats to open up Green.

No, with a real OC it wouldn't be.  The offensive line's biggest problem (after scheme and predictability from formations) is run blocking in the interior.

Do you remember Marvin Jones' coming out party against the Jets?  Dalton had something like a perfect QB rating and Marv had a ton of quick passes that he would make one guy miss and then turn it in to a big play, and as soon as the Jets would shift, Dalton would go after Green or a TE?  That offense put up a 40 burger on a top Jets defense by using all their weapons wisely and attacking the defenses in their weak spots. 

Today, we run the same plays out of the same formation regardless of the defensive alignment or personnel.  Dalton is not given the authority he once was.  They need to get back to that and those weapons that everyone keeps calling deep threats only will explode once a real coach gets here.