Jon Gruden on "Mike and Mike" this morning

[t3r3e3]

(08-06-2015, 09:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is just not true at all.  You can't blame Dalton when the defense plays poorly.

You can when the opposing offense gets excellent field position after yet another interception, or the odd fumble.

When the defense gets backed into a corner against Playoff caliber offenses, bad things happen. The defense deserves blame in the losses, but hasn't played terribly. Rather, they just haven't been very good either. Most alarming to is the failure to stop the run. That being said, Andy has played like a bum in all four Playoff losses. The losses aren't 100% on him. However, as QB, poor play by Andy exerts a greater negative influence on the game's outcome than any other position on the field. That's the cold hard truth, and why Dalton catches more flak than anyone else.

[*Nately120*]

(08-07-2015, 12:31 AM)t3r3e3 Wrote: You can when the opposing offense gets excellent field position after yet another interception, or the odd fumble.  

When the defense gets backed into a corner against Playoff caliber offenses, bad things happen.  The defense deserves blame in the losses, but hasn't played terribly.  Rather, they just haven't been very good either.  Most alarming to is the failure to stop the run.  That being said, Andy has played like a bum in all four Playoff losses.  The losses aren't 100% on him.  However,  as QB, poor play by Andy exerts a greater negative influence on the game's outcome than any other position on the field.  That's the cold hard truth, and why Dalton catches more flak than anyone else.

I posted numbers and stats and what not and I realized that it does no good to attempt to debate the people who refuse to look beyond the mantra of "It's all bad!  WHo cares!"  We've had playoff games where the defense put more points on the board than the offense, but whatever, it's everyone's fault!

The fact is our offense is good for about 7.5 points per game in the playoffs so unless the Bengals find a way to play in the NFL in the 1950s they hain't gonna win.

[fredtoast]

(08-07-2015, 12:41 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I posted numbers and stats and what not and I realized that it does no good to attempt to debate the people who refuse to look beyond the mantra of "It's all bad!  WHo cares!"  We've had playoff games where the defense put more points on the board than the offense, but whatever, it's everyone's fault!

The fact is our offense is good for about 7.5 points per game in the playoffs so unless the Bengals find a way to play in the NFL in the 1950s they hain't gonna win.

I've also posted numbers plus the opinions of experts like Jon Gruden.  Why do you think that neutral analysts like Jon Gruden and other national media members would refuse to look at facts?

The people who want to blame Dalton for every aspect of the game including coaching, defense, running game, and pass protection are the ones who refuse to look at the truth. 

[Luvnit2]

(08-06-2015, 07:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Asked about Andy Dalton winning a playoff game.  Gruden said that dalton can be a good QB, but just has not played well in the playoffs.  Then said the main point he wanted to make was that the entire Bengal team had not played well in the playoffs.  Said that even though Dalton had not played well he was not the only problem.

Gruden is saying what many of us had said. The reality is our performances have been inconsistent on both sides of the ball.

It is easier to blame the QB and some people tend to take the easy way out as they do not want to analyze the entire team. Yes AD has not played well. But, once you look at it we have some studs on both sides of the ball who have not played well.

You can't have 2 or 3 starters play well in the playoffs and expect to win. In the regular season we have  don't have that issue and why we win regular season games.

The Dalton haters will dismiss this 100% as they lost all objectivity a long time ago.

[jj22]

I still think a big (maybe the biggest) issue with our playoff performances is the lack of half time adjustments. Which is why we get schooled the second half. That's on the coaches. Dalton's played poorly no doubt, but the coaching staff has used that as a crutch to hide their incompetence (getting outcoached) and poor playoff record. And that's a lot to put on a 2nd round qb.

[djs7685]

(08-07-2015, 08:57 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I've also posted numbers plus the opinions of experts like Jon Gruden.  Why do you think that neutral analysts like Jon Gruden and other national media members would refuse to look at facts?

The people who want to blame Dalton for every aspect of the game including coaching, defense, running game, and pass protection are the ones who refuse to look at the truth. 

I think the issue for guys like myself and Nately is that we aren't allowed to discuss the issues with the offense (not just Andy) on this board without a million people telling us how it's the entire team's fault and that's that.

I have no problem saying that the entire team has sucked, but there is more to talk about than just that. I think the defense deserves their bashing for the 2011 and 2014 games and the offense absolutely deserves theirs for the other 2. IMO, the offense has sucked more than the defense if you look at all 4 games combined, but I'm called biased for saying that.

People claim the "Andy haters" can't be objective, but that's absurd. If I say the offense has sucked more than the defense, that doesn't mean I hate Andy Dalton, I'm just being realistic here.

Andy's biggest fans on here will bring up everything BUT the QB play if you discuss the playoff losses, yet we're the ones that aren't objective because we refuse to just give out equal blame even though it shouldn't be exactly equal? No, that's not how it's going to happen. It's not equal. I don't want to blame Dalton for everything, and I surely don't think it's Andy's fault when the defense has been bad or the coaching has been bad. In my opinion, blame goes something like Offense > Coaching = Defense > Special Teams, or Offense = Coaching > Defense > Special Teams. They've all sucked, but some parts have definitely sucked less.

[Luvnit2]

(08-07-2015, 09:37 AM)djs7685 Wrote: I think the issue for guys like myself and Nately is that we aren't allowed to discuss the issues with the offense (not just Andy) on this board without a million people telling us how it's the entire team's fault and that's that.

I have no problem saying that the entire team has sucked, but there is more to talk about than just that. I think the defense deserves their bashing for the 2011 and 2014 games and the offense absolutely deserves theirs for the other 2. IMO, the offense has sucked more than the defense if you look at all 4 games combined, but I'm called biased for saying that.

People claim the "Andy haters" can't be objective, but that's absurd. If I say the offense has sucked more than the defense, that doesn't mean I hate Andy Dalton, I'm just being realistic here.

Andy's biggest fans on here will bring up everything BUT the QB play if you discuss the playoff losses, yet we're the ones that aren't objective because we refuse to just give out equal blame even though it shouldn't be exactly equal? No, that's not how it's going to happen. It's not equal. I don't want to blame Dalton for everything, and I surely don't think it's Andy's fault when the defense has been bad or the coaching has been bad. In my opinion, blame goes something like Offense > Coaching = Defense > Special Teams, or Offense = Coaching > Defense > Special Teams. They've all sucked, but some parts have definitely sucked less.

I don't think you are close to an Andy hater so you do have good points and do analyze the whole situation.

Others simply refuse to even consider anything else, they are a small minority in the forum. Those are who I refer to when I say they lost all objectivity. I understand why they could feel that way as AD is very hard to trust, but even if the day comes I lose all trust in AD, I hope I still also look at everyone's performance versus just the QB.

As far as the others who have issues on offense in addition to AD in the playoffs, there are more who played worse than normal (regular season) than have played as well or better so why should that be ignored just because AD played poorly? I think it creates spirited debate and debate in this forum is what we do.

[djs7685]

(08-07-2015, 09:49 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I don't think you are close to an Andy hater so you do have good points and do analyze the whole situation.

Others simply refuse to even consider anything else, they are a small minority in the forum. Those are who I refer to when I say they lost all objectivity. I understand why they could feel that way as AD is very hard to trust, but even if the day comes I lose all trust in AD, I hope I still also look at everyone's performance versus just the QB.

As far as the others who have issues on offense in addition to AD in the playoffs, there are more who played worse than normal (regular season) than have played as well or better so why should that be ignored just because AD played poorly? I think it creates spirited debate and debate in this forum is what we do.

Honestly, I'm just glad that soon enough we can all start arguing about what's happening in the NFL currently instead of debating over what has happened over the last 4 years.

It feels like it's been an eternity since I've watched a live game, but we're almost there!

[Luvnit2]

(08-07-2015, 09:53 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Honestly, I'm just glad that soon enough we can all start arguing about what's happening in the NFL currently instead of debating over what has happened over the last 4 years.

It feels like it's been an eternity since I've watched a live game, but we're almost there!

I agree.

I will be at the 1st preseason game. I get there early as I see as much/more in the drills prior to the game from the vets than I see in the 1 quarter they play that night.

I have watched AD in preseason numerous times all 4 previous years. Last year, I did see his arm strength improve and his deep ball accuracy in the drills versus previous years. I also like to see the new WR's run the routes and check out their speed. Last year, I figured out early Wright was our fastest WR with straight line speed and stated he had a great shot making team even though a 7th round pick.

I can't wait and we can all choose to be optimistic right now. I hope I am optimistic the end of December as well.

[PV Bengal]

(08-07-2015, 09:33 AM)jj22 Wrote: I still think a big (maybe the biggest) issue with our playoff performances is the lack of half time adjustments. Which is why we get schooled the second half.

You hit the nail on the head. If one looks at virtually every Bengals loss over the past 4 years ... and especially the playoff games ... we come out in the 2nd half doing the same crap we did (unsuccessfully) in the first half.

Our opponents, however, apparently have 2 game plans ... one for each half.

[Stewy]

(08-06-2015, 07:20 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: sounds like a politically correct non-answer to me

(08-06-2015, 08:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What the hell does a question about a QB have to do with being "politically correct"?

And even if you don't agree with it it was actually a good answer.

And since when is Gruden politically correct?  he tells it like it is.

[Stewy]

(08-06-2015, 10:03 PM)jason Wrote: Jay Mohr picked the Bengals to finish last in the division with a 5-11 or 6-10 record, and claimed Marvin would be fired. I heard this driving home from work today.  It was all I could do to not pick up the phone to tell him that he's lost his damn mind.  Some guy from Cincinnati beat me to it.

(08-06-2015, 10:39 PM)magikod Wrote: How dumb is Jay Mohr? lol

I know right?  Like LOSING would ever get Marvin fired.  Seriously.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-06-2015, 08:33 PM)Thundercloud Wrote: Really, the defensive line has played poorly at least for the last two.  And our linebackers are really a pretty average crew, and they may not have played even that well.  Thought we should have taken a front seven player in the first round, instead of someone who won't help this year. I usually have no problem with long term stuff, but this is a team on the verge, and when that's the case, I think you should try to do something more immediate.

WTS, I'm not defending Dalton.  He's played as bad as anybody in the playoffs.

And though this is always an easy target, I've got to think about the coaches, too.  It seems to me we just come out there like we're not ready to play.  Where's the fire?  The players have to take some of that responsibility, too.  How hard should it be to get fired up for the playoffs?  Whatever the reason, we just seem like we're half paralyzed at times in the playoffs.  Hey, baby, just let it roll.

Abs-damn-lutely.  Agree on all points.....

[*Nately120*]

(08-07-2015, 08:57 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I've also posted numbers plus the opinions of experts like Jon Gruden.  Why do you think that neutral analysts like Jon Gruden and other national media members would refuse to look at facts?

The people who want to blame Dalton for every aspect of the game including coaching, defense, running game, and pass protection are the ones who refuse to look at the truth. 

The offense scores less than 10 points per game.  That's a fact, and that is a good bit lower than what the 32nd ranked offense will score in a given game.  The one time we topped 10 points (with a whopping 13 burger) the defense scored 7 of it and the one time the opponent cracked 27 points (which isn't good...so don't think I'm giving the defense a pass other than in 2012) Dalton threw a pick 6.

10
6
10
10

That is what the offense has put on the board in 4 games.  That is a total of 36 points in 4 games so we can expect 9 points of offense per game.  The worst offense in the league can put up between 12-16 points per game, and the best defense in the league will probably give up between 13-16 points per game so I honestly don't see how we can win with this offense.

You also point out that Jon Gruden is an expert and he sure does know more than I do, but he also mentioned Dalton by name first before backpedaling and spreading out the blame in a very safe manner.  Also, a lot of experts seem to be spending our picks on the offensive side of the ball, so I don't think that goes against my assessment, either.  Also, I'm not blaming DALTON for everything, but our offense in the playoffs makes the Blame Gabbert-led Jaguars look downright high-octane.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-07-2015, 12:31 AM)t3r3e3 Wrote: You can when the opposing offense gets excellent field position after yet another interception, or the odd fumble.  

When the defense gets backed into a corner against Playoff caliber offenses, bad things happen.  The defense deserves blame in the losses, but hasn't played terribly.  Rather, they just haven't been very good either.  Most alarming to is the failure to stop the run.  That being said, Andy has played like a bum in all four Playoff losses.  The losses aren't 100% on him.  However,  as QB, poor play by Andy exerts a greater negative influence on the game's outcome than any other position on the field.  That's the cold hard truth, and why Dalton catches more flak than anyone else.

You have some good points, but this is not true.  The d was terrible last year.....ZERO pressure, and Boom Herron looked the second coming of Jim Brown on us.  Dalton had zero turnovers.


Owen Daniel went off like Kelen Winslow on Rey Maualuga in Houston.  Owen. Daniel.

Yeah, they've shit their share of beds too......

[Vas Deferens]

(08-06-2015, 08:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What the hell does a question about a QB have to do with being "politically correct"?

And even if you don't agree with it it was actually a good answer.

you know exactly what i mean by that.  im not youre new defacto brad.  

(08-07-2015, 08:57 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I've also posted numbers plus the opinions of experts like Jon Gruden.  Why do you think that neutral analysts like Jon Gruden and other national media members would refuse to look at facts?

The people who want to blame Dalton for every aspect of the game including coaching, defense, running game, and pass protection are the ones who refuse to look at the truth. 

yeah.  real neutral.  he's only the older brother of the OC that lost 2 of those games and got a HC gig as a result of his 'development' of our 'QB'.  of coarse he's going to say he 'could' win a playoff game.  any QB in the league 'could' win a playoff game.  he's obviously not the sole reason we've lost in the playoffs, but his decision making and lack of testicular fortitude in the pocket certainly cost us dearly.

we get it.  you love the guy unconditionally.

[Mickeypoo]

(08-07-2015, 09:33 AM)jj22 Wrote: I still think a big (maybe the biggest) issue with our playoff performances is the lack of half time adjustments. Which is why we get schooled the second half. That's on the coaches. Dalton's played poorly no doubt, but the coaching staff has used that as a crutch to hide their incompetence (getting outcoached) and poor playoff record. And that's a lot to put on a 2nd round qb.

My thoughts exactly!!!!   Coaching.  I actually think Dalton is decent and can take us all the way, but I do not believe our coaches can.

[Crowe]

(08-06-2015, 07:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Asked about Andy Dalton winning a playoff game.  Gruden said that dalton can be a good QB, but just has not played well in the playoffs.  Then said the main point he wanted to make was that the entire Bengal team had not played well in the playoffs.  Said that even though Dalton had not played well he was not the only problem.

I agree 100%, the team, the coaches, and dalton have all been bad in the post season and primetime games

[fredtoast]

(08-07-2015, 03:39 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: we get it.  you love the guy unconditionally.

Obviously you don't get it because I have repeatedly said that dalton has played very poorly in playoff games.

And if Gruden's answer had anything to do with protecting his brother then he would not have alleged that the entire team played poorly.  That puts blame squarely on the coaches.

[*Nately120*]

(08-07-2015, 04:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Obviously you don't get it because I have repeatedly said that dalton has played very poorly in playoff games.

And if Gruden's answer had anything to do with protecting his brother then he would not have alleged that the entire team played poorly.  That puts blame squarely on the coaches.

Jon Gruden is a bit of a nut case.  He gets so into certain players when he's doing the MNF broadcast that it's absurd.  He only dialed back his 346% love for Tony Romo to a managable 178% after Romo threw his 5th INT of the night against the Bears a few years back.  I'd have a hard time taking any public statement Jon makes too seriously.  The guy is just wacky when he knows people are listening.