Yes, This Team Can Win

[thillan]

Look, I'm negative about this team right now, but the hatred is a bit ridiculous.

To say that the Bengals will never stand a chance due to management is crazy. This team had a great chance in 2015, and has a good amount of talented teams in recent memory. Yes, I do think it's time to move on from Marvin, but I don't think it's impossible to make it to the SB with Mike.

In fact, take away the major injuries in 2005 and 2015, and I would've been very excited. I DO think Dalton and company could've made a run, and I DO think if Carson Palmer doesn't get injured then the Bengals have a chance.

Yes, we can still pick up quality coordinators and a HC, and have a chance. And we can still have a few drafts that produce blue chip players that give us a chance. I heard recently on a podcast from a few former players that if you can get 8-10 blue chip talents, you can win a SB. That's possible for ANY team.

Of course smarter moves have to be made, but I do think that Mike Brown actually does want to win. And I do think that he can change his ways, or be convinced from a HC that is serious about winning to bend his ways a bit. Marvin doesn't strike me as a guy who can stand up, but I don't think it's crazy to think that we could get a HC to persuade Mike to make some changes.

I mean, come on. This team has had some serious talent. AJ Green is a SB talent. I think Burfict is a SB talent. I even think GIO is a SB talent (anyone enjoying Burkhead ripping teams apart btw?).

This team can make the Super Bowl. I'm NOT saying next year. But I am saying that there isn't some magical force that will prevent us from ever getting there. At the beginning of the season, everyone starts 0-0. If we can get those blue chip players and better coaches that develop, then we have a chance.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-12-2017, 01:37 PM)thillan Wrote: Look, I'm negative about this team right now, but the hatred is a bit ridiculous.

To say that the Bengals will never stand a chance due to management is crazy. This team had a great chance in 2015, and has a good amount of talented teams in recent memory. Yes, I do think it's time to move on from Marvin, but I don't think it's impossible to make it to the SB with Mike.

In fact, take away the major injuries in 2005 and 2015, and I would've been very excited. I DO think Dalton and company could've made a run, and I DO think if Carson Palmer doesn't get injured then the Bengals have a chance.

Yes, we can still pick up quality coordinators and a HC, and have a chance. And we can still have a few drafts that produce blue chip players that give us a chance. I heard recently on a podcast from a few former players that if you can get 8-10 blue chip talents, you can win a SB. That's possible for ANY team.

Of course smarter moves have to be made, but I do think that Mike Brown actually does want to win. And I do think that he can change his ways, or be convinced from a HC that is serious about winning to bend his ways a bit. Marvin doesn't strike me as a guy who can stand up, but I don't think it's crazy to think that we could get a HC to persuade Mike to make some changes.

I mean, come on. This team has had some serious talent. AJ Green is a SB talent. I think Burfict is a SB talent. I even think GIO is a SB talent (anyone enjoying Burkhead ripping teams apart btw?).

This team can make the Super Bowl. I'm NOT saying next year. But I am saying that there isn't some magical force that will prevent us from ever getting there. At the beginning of the season, everyone starts 0-0. If we can get those blue chip players and better coaches that develop, then we have a chance.

It's been 27+ years since this management team won a playoff game. All but the worst of the worst franchises in the NFL have won 5+ over that span.

Of course we'll actually win occasionally...but it won't be sustained. They don't really use free agency and have a small scouting staff.

It's a mom and pop shop basically competing against big corporations. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

There will be many who come on here and slam your thoughts but i am not gonna.

As long as Marv and PA are gone we will have a chance. People will say MB is the main problem and they are correct but i
truly believe a couple good coaches at these positions could bring this team back from the abyss. All the coaches contracts
are up to boot and who is to say we don't clean house and MB actually steps aside and lets Katie hire a GM?

If this happens i could really see that SB run in a few years.

Count me as one of the optimistic and excited ones about moving on from Marvin Lewis. Dude is terrible and with the help
of PA has flushed 2 seasons in a row down the toilet. The players are clearly ready to move on after that pathetic effort
against the Bears. It is obvious.

[Big Boss]

It's certainly possible. This team has come close to winning a playoff game in recent years despite Marvin's deficiencies as a coach. It's just that with the handcuffs Mike Brown put on this team with the small scouting department, the inactivity in free agency, letting key players go and then trying to build exclusively through the draft, it's going to be much harder to win here than it is elsewhere. Not impossible. Just more difficult.

It would be nice if Brown woke up one day with the epiphany that his approach hasn't worked for 27 years and that it's time to change. In my experience, though, once you get to a certain age you're set in your ways and there's simply no changing your mind. So unless he steps down or passes away, I imagine Brown will just keep on truckin' along.

[thillan]

(12-12-2017, 01:44 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: It's been 27+ years since this management team won a playoff game. All but the worst of the worst franchises in the NFL have won 5+ over that span.

Of course we'll actually win occasionally...but it won't be sustained. They don't really use free agency and have a small scouting staff.

It's a mom and pop shop basically competing against big corporations. 

You keep mentioning management, but management isn't the one who caused Palmer to get his knee blown out. They weren't the ones who hit AB in the head over the middle, then pushed an opposing coach. 

And what about losing to backup QBs to the Texans?

I'm not saying it's going to happen next year, and I'm not saying I trust them to build a dynasty like the Patriots, but things CAN change. And this team's recent history has been good. Quality coordinators and coaches, combined with blue chip players, CAN WIN.

Yes, they do need to be more aggressive in FA. And I still think that we need a coach who is willing to tell Mike that that's what it takes to take the next step.

[thillan]

(12-12-2017, 01:44 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: There will be many who come on here and slam your thoughts but i am not gonna.

As long as Marv and PA are gone we will have a chance. People will say MB is the main problem and they are correct but i
truly believe a couple good coaches at these positions could bring this team back from the abyss. All the coaches contracts
are up to boot and who is to say we don't clean house and MB actually steps aside and lets Katie hire a GM?

If this happens i could really see that SB run in a few years.

Count me as one of the optimistic and excited ones about moving on from Marvin Lewis. Dude is terrible and with the help
of PA has flushed 2 seasons in a row down the toilet. The players are clearly ready to move on after that pathetic effort
against the Bears. It is obvious.

(12-12-2017, 01:49 PM)Big Boss Wrote: It's certainly possible. This team has come close to winning a playoff game in recent years despite Marvin's deficiencies as a coach. It's just that with the handcuffs Mike Brown put on this team with the small scouting department, the lack of activity in free agency, letting key players go and trying to build exclusively through the draft, it's going to be much harder here than it is elsewhere.

Yep I agree with both of these. I know Mike has handcuffs, but I do think even he can make change. I know he cares about money, but at some point even he may get tired of losing.

I think our drafting hasn't been too bad overall though. I can see some of picks playing much better in other places. which comes to coaching. I view lack of FA as our biggest problem.

[Sled21]

Yep, the management here has it's problems, but Marvin Lewis had 5 teams in a row that went to the playoffs with a good chance to win (outside of the year they were decimated by injuries and running backs were playing slot receiver.) It wasn't management that failed to have the team up and ready, instead letting them come out flat and be beaten, it was Marvin Lewis. He was given a team that could perform, and he failed to steer it to victory. That is on him, not Mike Brown.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-12-2017, 01:49 PM)Big Boss Wrote: It's certainly possible.  This team has come close to winning a playoff game in recent years despite Marvin's deficiencies as a coach.  It's just that with the handcuffs Mike Brown put on this team with the small scouting department, the inactivity in free agency, letting key players go and then trying to build exclusively through the draft, it's going to be much harder to win here than it is elsewhere.  Not impossible.  Just more difficult.

Well that is the thing, not only does MB handcuff this team by pretty much ignoring the good in FA and being cheap,
Marv likes to hamper the Offense. Just take one of those f'n handcuffers away and the team should be much better.

Looks like the Marv f'n handcuffer is gone so this is great news for us Bengal fans. :andy:

[Big Boss]

(12-12-2017, 01:52 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Yep, the management here has it's problems, but Marvin Lewis had 5 teams in a row that went to the playoffs with a good chance to win (outside of the year they were decimated by injuries and running backs were playing slot receiver.) It wasn't management that failed to have the team up and ready, instead letting them come out flat and be beaten, it was Marvin Lewis. He was given a team that could perform, and he failed to steer it to victory. That is on him, not Mike Brown.

Honestly, of the five playoff losses in the Dalton/Green era, only two of them really piss me off: 2013 vs the Chargers, and obviously 2015 vs the Steelers.  Both times they had the other team beat, but still found a way to just completely and thoroughly shit the bed. That wasn't Mike Brown's fault.

I'm honestly not sure which one is more upsetting.  The 2013 loss should have ended Marvin's tenure here, thus making way for Mike Zimmer.  The fact that Marvin stuck around after that game and Zimmer was allowed to walk off to Minnesota is still a punch in the gut.  The 2015 loss against the Steelers is sickening for reasons already known to us, not the least of which is the fact that Marvin still had a job after it.    

[sandwedge]

I agree to a certain extent. Someone else said it in another post, how can play so well in the first half and then fall apart in the second half? That's coaching and not management. There's plenty of blame to go around, no denying that.

[thillan]

(12-12-2017, 01:57 PM)Big Boss Wrote: Honestly, of the five playoff losses in the Dalton/Green era, only two of them really piss me off: 2013 vs the Chargers, and obviously 2015 vs the Steelers.  Both times they had the other team beat, but still found a way to just completely and thoroughly shit the bed. 

I'm honestly not sure which one is more upsetting.  the 2013 loss should have ended Marvin's tenure here, thus making way for Mike Zimmer.  The fact that Marvin stuck around after that game and Zimmer was allowed to walk off to Minnesota is still a punch in the gut.  The 2015 loss against the Steelers is sickening for reasons already known to us, not the least of which is the fact that Marvin STILL had a job after it.    

By the way, I'm glad you mentioned Zimmer, because I think of that too. When I think of a HC that COULD change things here, I truly think our team is great if Zimmer would've taken over. 

What a great coach man, I'm happy for his success. But that's what I mean.. if we make that one change, I see things going much better.

[Sled21]

(12-12-2017, 01:57 PM)Big Boss Wrote: Honestly, of the five playoff losses in the Dalton/Green era, only two of them really piss me off: 2013 vs the Chargers, and obviously 2015 vs the Steelers.  Both times they had the other team beat, but still found a way to just completely and thoroughly shit the bed.  That wasn't Mike Brown's fault.

I'm honestly not sure which one is more upsetting.  The 2013 loss should have ended Marvin's tenure here, thus making way for Mike Zimmer.  The fact that Marvin stuck around after that game and Zimmer was allowed to walk off to Minnesota is still a punch in the gut.  The 2015 loss against the Steelers is sickening for reasons already known to us, not the least of which is the fact that Marvin still had a job after it.    

The Chargers game for me. There is no way we should have lost that game, and I drove to Cincy to watch it. The whole team, both sides of the ball, shit the bad that day. That's 100% Marvin Lewis's fault..... he should have been fired, or forced into taking a GM position, and Zimmer promoted to head coach.

[McC]

Look at it like this---2002, 2-14.

New coach hired after the season, the next season 8-8, two years later, 11-5, home playoff game.

I mention this for the benefit of the little biatches who think we can never win again.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-12-2017, 01:57 PM)Big Boss Wrote: Honestly, of the five playoff losses in the Dalton/Green era, only two of them really piss me off: 2013 vs the Chargers, and obviously 2015 vs the Steelers.  Both times they had the other team beat, but still found a way to just completely and thoroughly shit the bed.  That wasn't Mike Brown's fault.

I'm honestly not sure which one is more upsetting.  The 2013 loss should have ended Marvin's tenure here, thus making way for Mike Zimmer.  The fact that Marvin stuck around after that game and Zimmer was allowed to walk off to Minnesota is still a punch in the gut.  The 2015 loss against the Steelers is sickening for reasons already known to us, not the least of which is the fact that Marvin still had a job after it.    

Completely agree, both of those playoff games should of been wins. To shit the bed like that is on the HC.

He cannot out coach a playoff HC and he cannot get his team fired up for a damn playoff game!

The Chargers game was another 2nd half collapse like we have been witnessing a lot more of this season where Marv
sticks his nose where it doesn't belong and fail to score in the 2nd half. Worst 2nd half coach of all time i have ever
witnessed. Cannot say enough how excited i am to move on from this asshat.

[Pat5775]

(12-12-2017, 01:37 PM)thillan Wrote: Look, I'm negative about this team right now, but the hatred is a bit ridiculous.

To say that the Bengals will never stand a chance due to management is crazy. This team had a great chance in 2015, and has a good amount of talented teams in recent memory. Yes, I do think it's time to move on from Marvin, but I don't think it's impossible to make it to the SB with Mike.

In fact, take away the major injuries in 2005 and 2015, and I would've been very excited. I DO think Dalton and company could've made a run, and I DO think if Carson Palmer doesn't get injured then the Bengals have a chance.

Yes, we can still pick up quality coordinators and a HC, and have a chance. And we can still have a few drafts that produce blue chip players that give us a chance. I heard recently on a podcast from a few former players that if you can get 8-10 blue chip talents, you can win a SB. That's possible for ANY team.

Of course smarter moves have to be made, but I do think that Mike Brown actually does want to win. And I do think that he can change his ways, or be convinced from a HC that is serious about winning to bend his ways a bit. Marvin doesn't strike me as a guy who can stand up, but I don't think it's crazy to think that we could get a HC to persuade Mike to make some changes.

I mean, come on. This team has had some serious talent. AJ Green is a SB talent. I think Burfict is a SB talent. I even think GIO is a SB talent (anyone enjoying Burkhead ripping teams apart btw?).

This team can make the Super Bowl. I'm NOT saying next year. But I am saying that there isn't some magical force that will prevent us from ever getting there. At the beginning of the season, everyone starts 0-0. If we can get those blue chip players and better coaches that develop, then we have a chance.

Excellent post and I certainly agree with you.

I'm one of the few who doesn't think management has been horrible recently. No seriously.

Granted, historically Mike brown is the worst owner/GM in sports history. But over the last several years I'd say the only thing management is truly guilty of is hanging on to Marv too long. Sure, I'm not a fan of ignoring high profile free agents or ignoring the trenches in the draft, but at the same time that approach has worked (up until recently). I was furious they let Whitworth and Zeitler get away, but honestly Zeitler isn't worth what he got from Cleveland. I'm not so sure Whitworth ever truly intended to come back here either. The main reason we rarely win in Primetime, seldom best Pittsburgh, and haven't won a playoff game is poor coaching. That's my belief anyway.

We replace Marvin with someone with football smarts and a killer instinct... Then I think we'll be real contenders in just a few years (maybe even sooner).

[Pat5775]

(12-12-2017, 02:15 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Completely agree, both of those playoff games should of been wins. To shit the bed like that is on the HC.

He cannot out coach a playoff HC and he cannot get his team fired up for a damn playoff game!

The Chargers game was another 2nd half collapse like we have been witnessing a lot more of this season where Marv
sticks his nose where it doesn't belong and fail to score in the 2nd half. Worst 2nd half coach of all time i have ever
witnessed.[size] Cannot say enough how excited i am to move on from this asshat.[/size]

he literally is the worst second half coach of all time. Someone either here or on Twitter posted Marvins career second half numbers and statistcally, nobody is worse. I wish I had screen captured them.

[bengalguy71]

(12-12-2017, 01:49 PM)thillan Wrote: You keep mentioning management, but management isn't the one who caused Palmer to get his knee blown out. They weren't the ones who hit AB in the head over the middle, then pushed an opposing coach. 

And what about losing to backup QBs to the Texans?

I'm not saying it's going to happen next year, and I'm not saying I trust them to build a dynasty like the Patriots, but things CAN change. And this team's recent history has been good. Quality coordinators and coaches, combined with blue chip players, CAN WIN.

Yes, they do need to be more aggressive in FA. And I still think that we need a coach who is willing to tell Mike that that's what it takes to take the next step.

There are reasons for all of this and everything comes right back to MB.  He doesn't run this ship like his father used to.  He is more concerned about being 'liked' than winning.

Yes, his dad had players that probably didn't 'like' him one bit, but PB was all about winning, but also wanted to do it within the rules and wasn't a 'win at any cost' type of owner.

[bengalguy71]

(12-12-2017, 02:23 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: Excellent post and I certainly agree with you.

I'm one of the few who doesn't think management has been horrible recently. No seriously.

Granted, historically Mike brown is the worst owner/GM in sports history. But over the last several years I'd say the only thing management is truly guilty of is hanging on to Marv too long. Sure, I'm not a fan of ignoring high profile free agents or ignoring the trenches in the draft, but at the same time that approach has worked (up until recently). I was furious they let Whitworth and Zeitler get away, but honestly Zeitler isn't worth what he got from Cleveland. I'm not so sure Whitworth ever truly intended to come back here either. The main reason we rarely win in Primetime, seldom best Pittsburgh, and haven't won a playoff game is poor coaching. That's my belief anyway.

We replace Marvin with someone with football smarts and a killer instinct... Then I think we'll be real contenders in just a few years (maybe even sooner).

This franchise has nothing to lose by changing HCs pat, but the problem is, I don't think MB will hire a HC and give him free reign that needs to happen here.  He fired the very coach you described in Sam Wyche.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-12-2017, 01:49 PM)thillan Wrote: You keep mentioning management, but management isn't the one who caused Palmer to get his knee blown out. They weren't the ones who hit AB in the head over the middle, then pushed an opposing coach. 

And what about losing to backup QBs to the Texans?

I'm not saying it's going to happen next year, and I'm not saying I trust them to build a dynasty like the Patriots, but things CAN change. And this team's recent history has been good. Quality coordinators and coaches, combined with blue chip players, CAN WIN.

Yes, they do need to be more aggressive in FA. And I still think that we need a coach who is willing to tell Mike that that's what it takes to take the next step.

We lost playoff games with Gruden and Zimmer as coordinators when we had a good roster. Our defense melted down some of those years. Our offense made errors. Guys dropped passes. It's a bunch of different things.

This team has a culture that breeds losing. The team finds ways to lose. Just like when they had a 17-0 lead against the Steelers and lost it.

That's what you guys don't get. The issues in Primetime are just a precursor to playoff losses. When the lights come on, the team shrinks.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-12-2017, 02:15 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Completely agree, both of those playoff games should of been wins. To shit the bed like that is on the HC.

He cannot out coach a playoff HC and he cannot get his team fired up for a damn playoff game!

The Chargers game was another 2nd half collapse like we have been witnessing a lot more of this season where Marv
sticks his nose where it doesn't belong and fail to score in the 2nd half. Worst 2nd half coach of all time i have ever
witnessed. Cannot say enough how excited i am to move on from this asshat.

And who retained that HC? Yes Management.

When Marvin was 0-5 in the playoffs was the time to fire him. The team still had a lot of talent then.

Nope...ownership allowed him to become 0-7. Now we get to hire a new HC while we are rebuilding.