Yes, This Team Can Win

[McC]

(12-12-2017, 02:36 PM)bengalguy71 Wrote: This franchise has nothing to lose by changing HCs pat, but the problem is, I don't think MB will hire a HC and give him free reign that needs to happen here.  He fired the very coach you described in Sam Wyche.

How many coaches have free reign?  Probably not many.  Input, certainly.  Total control, very few.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-12-2017, 02:41 PM)McC Wrote: How many coaches have free reign?  Probably not many.  Input, certainly.  Total control, very few.

And I think that's a good thing. A check and balance if you would.

Basically, if coaches draft players they want...they may stick with them longer than they should to justify the pick. The converse is Marvin not wanting a guy like Ross so he maybe subconsciously makes him fail and have a harder time to play.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-12-2017, 02:25 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: he literally is the worst second half coach of all time. Someone either here or on Twitter posted Marvins career second half numbers and statistcally, nobody is worse. I wish I had screen captured them.

Wyche posted some stats as of late that were completely mind boggling.

I agree with you, Marvin Lewis is the worst and has just gotten worse over the last few years.

(12-12-2017, 02:39 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: And who retained that HC? Yes Management.

When Marvin was 0-5 in the playoffs was the time to fire him. The team still had a lot of talent then.

Nope...ownership allowed him to become 0-7. Now we get to hire a new HC while we are rebuilding.

Definately true, should of made Zim the HC back then or even Jay.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-12-2017, 04:25 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Wyche posted some stats as of late that were completely mind boggling.

I agree with you, Marvin Lewis is the worst and has just gotten worse over the last few years.


Definately true, should of made Zim the HC back then or even Jay.

People miss the big picture of why Lewis is here though. And that's because he works well with management and doesn't raise a fuss about free agent spending, etc. ie He goes with the flow.

There is no other franchise that would keep a coach who was 0-7 in the playoffs.

[*bengalfan74*]

What this team needs in the worst way possible even more than player A in FA, or hot item player in the draft, etc.

A very large helping of discipline, a magnum bottle of responsibility, and a train load of accountability, and a passion and determination to win above all else from the Owner/GM and coaching staff.

This team is stuck in 1st gear and losing is all they know.

Then yes, they can win. Not until this fundamental flaw is fixed !

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-12-2017, 02:23 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: Excellent post and I certainly agree with you.

I'm one of the few who doesn't think management has been horrible recently. No seriously.

Granted, historically Mike brown is the worst owner/GM in sports history. But over the last several years I'd say the only thing management is truly guilty of is hanging on to Marv too long. Sure, I'm not a fan of ignoring high profile free agents or ignoring the trenches in the draft, but at the same time that approach has worked (up until recently). I was furious they let Whitworth and Zeitler get away, but honestly Zeitler isn't worth what he got from Cleveland. I'm not so sure Whitworth ever truly intended to come back here either. The main reason we rarely win in Primetime, seldom best Pittsburgh, and haven't won a playoff game is poor coaching. That's my belief anyway.

We replace Marvin with someone with football smarts and a killer instinct... Then I think we'll be real contenders in just a few years (maybe even sooner).

That's a HUGE part of it, no doubt.  However, to lay some on management, this team ALWAYS has a fatal flaw that could have been addressed with a decent FA or two that good opponents always exploit and attack.  See Owen Daniels vs Rey Maualuga for example.....or pressure up the gut with Blodine.  The biggest onus is on coaching, I've said that since the old board, but the FO has some culpability for being cheapskates as well.....not to mention promoting in house turds as coordinators at times, and keeping Piano Man since Dave Shula. :paul:

[Rattler]

[thillan]

(12-12-2017, 04:34 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: What this team needs in the worst way possible even more than player A in FA, or hot item player in the draft, etc.

A very large helping of discipline, a magnum bottle of responsibility, and a train load of accountability, and a passion and determination to win above all else from the Owner/GM and coaching staff.

This team is stuck in 1st gear and losing is all they know.

Then yes, they can win. Not until this fundamental flaw is fixed !

I agree, I think discipline and more aggression would fix a lot right away really. The team needs to perform better as a unit, and then needs to not let up when things start to go the other way.

A HC that has that mentality would go a long way right away. I can see us winning the Pit game and the Houston game alone, maybe even GB if they kept some aggression and discipline at the end.

I guess I just think that even though management isn't great here, I view the HC as having more power and influence than others do.

[bengalguy71]

(12-12-2017, 02:41 PM)McC Wrote: How many coaches have free reign?  Probably not many.  Input, certainly.  Total control, very few.

Free reign to decide who he wants on his staff.

Free reign to coach the team his way.

I'm not talking about free reign to do Tobin's and a true GM's job.

[muskiesfan]

Change. That is the key word. No, not just changing the head coach. Not just changing the coaching staff. Not just changing players. This team needs a deep fundamental change. They need a change where the owner/GM actual shows he wants to win instead of just saying he wants to win. An owner/GM who is willing to go all in, use free agency, sign upper tier players, and hold players accountable instead of basing his opinions off of loyalty.

Winning is a culture. The culture within Bengaldom is not a winning one. We even see the players constantly question "the process" because from the top down, no one is showing they're committed to winning. From Mike Brown down, they talk about wanting to win. However, their actions show they only want to win their way. The Brown Way of winning is do it as cheaply as possible. As long as that is our culture, nothing else really matters.

After all of these years of watching Mike Brown ruin my favorite team, I just don't see him changing his ways. He's as stubborn as they come. After almost 30 years of doing it one way, it's crazy to expect he's going to magically change, realize the error of his ways, and actually give a shit about something other than his bank account.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-12-2017, 04:43 PM)Wyche Wrote: That's a HUGE part of it, no doubt.  However, to lay some on management, this team ALWAYS has a fatal flaw that could have been addressed with a decent FA or two that good opponents always exploit and attack.  See Owen Daniels vs Rey Maualuga for example.....or pressure up the gut with Blodine.  The biggest onus is on coaching, I've said that since the old board, but the FO has some culpability for being cheapskates as well.....not to mention promoting in house turds as coordinators at times, and keeping Piano Man since Dave Shula. :paul:

It's a chicken/egg argument. When the players look bad is it coaching or are the players bad?

If you put Bodine on the Steelers, would he be better? I doubt it.

Then it comes down to why does he start here?

[THE PISTONS]

(12-12-2017, 11:49 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: Change. That is the key word. No, not just changing the head coach. Not just changing the coaching staff. Not just changing players. This team needs a deep fundamental change. They need a change where the owner/GM actual shows he wants to win instead of just saying he wants to win. An owner/GM who is willing to go all in, use free agency, sign upper tier players, and hold players accountable instead of basing his opinions off of loyalty.

Winning is a culture. The culture within Bengaldom is not a winning one. We even see the players constantly question "the process" because from the top down, no one is showing they're committed to winning. From Mike Brown down, they talk about wanting to win. However, their actions show they only want to win their way. The Brown Way of winning is do it as cheaply as possible. As long as that is our culture, nothing else really matters.

After all of these years of watching Mike Brown ruin my favorite team, I just don't see him changing his ways. He's as stubborn as they come. After almost 30 years of doing it one way, it's crazy to expect he's going to magically change, realize the error of his ways, and actually give a shit about something other than his bank account.

The Management behaving like they want to win is a big deal. Their prime objective is making a profit and keeping the team financially sound...and if the do that AND win...great. That's how they are managed.

Other NFL Teams would spend $50 million over the salary cap if they could. The Bengals find ways to do things as frugally as possible.

[*bengalfan74*]

(12-12-2017, 11:49 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: Change. That is the key word. No, not just changing the head coach. Not just changing the coaching staff. Not just changing players. This team needs a deep fundamental change. They need a change where the owner/GM actual shows he wants to win instead of just saying he wants to win. An owner/GM who is willing to go all in, use free agency, sign upper tier players, and hold players accountable instead of basing his opinions off of loyalty.

Winning is a culture. The culture within Bengaldom is not a winning one. We even see the players constantly question "the process" because from the top down, no one is showing they're committed to winning. From Mike Brown down, they talk about wanting to win. However, their actions show they only want to win their way. The Brown Way of winning is do it as cheaply as possible. As long as that is our culture, nothing else really matters.

After all of these years of watching Mike Brown ruin my favorite team, I just don't see him changing his ways. He's as stubborn as they come. After almost 30 years of doing it one way, it's crazy to expect he's going to magically change, realize the error of his ways, and actually give a shit about something other than his bank account.

Oh I fully agree,

I will be shocked to my core if MB actually changes things up. Really changes that is !

I wouldn't be surprised at all for Marvin, PA, and the bulk of the staff to be back next season. Probably at best we'll get a little window dressing, new OC or something ?

Gotta hold out hope we're wrong though.

[Utts]

(12-12-2017, 01:44 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: It's been 27+ years since this management team won a playoff game. All but the worst of the worst franchises in the NFL have won 5+ over that span.

Of course we'll actually win occasionally...but it won't be sustained. They don't really use free agency and have a small scouting staff.

It's a mom and pop shop basically competing against big corporations. 

I’m not going to Google it, but I’d guess most teams are not consistent winners. They have ups and downs. The Bengals were a consistent winner for a number of years under Marvin, so the idea this management team can’t achieve that is false. There’s a handful of teams in the league that are consistent winners, but it’s the exception not the rule.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-13-2017, 12:37 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Oh I fully agree,

I will be shocked to my core if MB actually changes things up. Really changes that is !

I wouldn't be surprised at all for Marvin, PA, and the bulk of the staff to be back next season. Probably at best we'll get a little window dressing, new OC or something ?

Gotta hold out hope we're wrong though.

Sure hope you are shocked to your core.

The OC is not the problem right now, it is Marv who is the biggest problem sticking his nose in the Offense.

He is the frickin ball and chain holding this team down.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-13-2017, 03:28 AM)Utts Wrote: I’m not going to Google it, but I’d guess most teams are not consistent winners. They have ups and downs. The Bengals were a consistent winner for a number of years under Marvin, so the idea this management team can’t achieve that is false. There’s a handful of teams in the league that are consistent winners, but it’s the exception not the rule.

They had 2 really great drafts...that part could be luck.

I just don't think we have the scouting infrastructure to compete with the big boys consistently.

Yeah we may get lucky and have some great drafts here and there...but people win the lotto too in freak acts of luck.