Paul Daugherty: If Lewis is out, shouldn't Dalton follow?

[*jason*]

(12-20-2017, 02:55 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I think ALL non-preseason games count. 

These last two weeks if the season barely count. Only being played because the rules dictate that they must.

[*PhilHos*]

(12-20-2017, 03:06 PM)jason Wrote: These last two weeks if the season barely count. Only being played because the rules dictate that they must.

This is what infuriates me. Merv needs to resign or Mike needs to just fire him now. It's in Mike's best interest to do the latter because he can at least argue to the players that giving up is not tolerated. It might be too late at this point, but that just goes back to Mike's ineptitude.

God, Mike needs to go. :angry:

[Shake n Blake]

1. Paul Daugherty has always been anti-Andy. So no surprise there. 

2. I'm not falling into the same trap of scapegoating the QB ala 2010 Palmer.

3. Dalton's stats the last 2 weeks are irrelevant to me. The team quit the moment they lost to the Steelers. For 10 straight weeks, this team at least showed fight, and Dalton played well through that stretch. We went from nearly beating probably the 2nd best NFL team, to losing 2 games by a combined score of 67-14. Yeah, Dalton has been terrible in those 2 games along with everyone else. Imagine that. Now we got folks jumping out from under their rocks to point at his passer rating ranking.  

So Dalton is 21st now in passer rating. Guess where that puts him? Right between Derek Carr and Cam Newton. Is that really unforgivable considering the circumstances? Lets not act like other good QB's don't have down years with bad circumstances. Our line? Shit. Run game? Shit. Receivers outside of AJ? Shit. Changed coordinators mid-season. Players quitting because Marv is quitting. Eifert injured again. Ross couldn't get on the field. LaFell looks done.

Lets be honest here. The situation isn't just "not great" it's crap. Dalton doesn't need an immaculate cast to perform at a good level. He just needs the team to not be in utter disarray. 

Is Dalton part of the solution moving forward? Idk...but he's not even a problem with this team. This team is just a shit show, and Dalton isn't an elite (top 3) QB we would need to overcome it. Fwiw, if we could get Josh Rosen somehow (trade up?), I'd be for it, but I don't like any of the other prospects. They all look like 2nd round picks (or later) that will be over-drafted out of desperation to fill a need.

At this stage, I'd rather wait it out and see how Dalton performs under a new coaching staff. If Dalton shows no improvement or still chokes away a playoff game, then I'd look elsewhere. Hopefully we'll be in a better spot or the QB class is better by then. Fwiw, I said the exact same thing about Palmer in 2011. I wanted to see at least 1 year of him without Bratkowski while Dalton sat and learned. 

[Joelist]

We need to rebuild the Offensive Line before even thinking of skill position players. And by rebuild I mean actual blue chippers on the interior not UFDAs.

[The Caped Crusader]

Andy Dalton threads are the Star Wars threads of the Bengals message boards. Easy click bait. Easy responses. Good way to piss everyone off.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-20-2017, 04:01 PM)Joelist Wrote: We need to rebuild the Offensive Line before even thinking of skill position players. And by rebuild I mean actual blue chippers on the interior not UFDAs.

While I agree with this approach, I see moving on from Dalton would open up the wallet a little more to address OL in FA.
And given the number of OL spots that need upgraded (four), the Bengals won't get immediate starters for all of those in one draft. They'll need a good FA or two.
Unfortunately, unless we see New England let Solder leave (highly doubtful), there isn't a LT worth picking up in FA. The RT market isn't very good either.
There are some solid C's and OG's that should be available in FA.
The upcoming draft has a handful of very strong interior OL prospects. The OT class looks more suited for run protection vs pass protection, but if that's acceptable then I could see an OT taken high.

Bengals also need another interior pass rusher, 3-down LB, and FS.

[Shake n Blake]

(12-20-2017, 02:38 PM)Devils Advocate Wrote: Andy Dalton has never had everything perfect around him. He’s barely had a run game, TE or second receiving option or dependable Oline all at same time. I’d argue he’s never had any of the two at the same time. Sorry Doc, that view is just plain wrong. Not to mention, he’s always had Marvin Lewis.

2011
Run game: 19th in yards, 27th in YPC
TE: Gresham
WR2: Jerome Simpson
O-line: 23rd most sacked QB (Good)

1 out of 4 were good

2012
Run game: 18th in yards, 20th in YPC
TE: Gresham
WR2: Binns/Sanu/Jones (Binns with 5 starts, Sanu and Jones were rookies)
O-line: 3rd most sacked QB (Bad)

0 out of 4 were good

2013
Run game: 18th in yards, 28th in YPC
TE: Gresham/Eifert (Eifert's rookie season)
WR2: Marvin Jones
O-line: 21st most sacked QB (Good)

3 out of 4 were good

2014
Run game: 6th in yards, 12th in YPC
TE: Gresham (Eifert was supposed to take over, but missed entire season)
WR2: Sanu (Jones missed entire season, and Sanu was often the WR1 because Green missed several games)
O-line: 26th most sacked QB (Good)

2 out of 4 were good

2015
Run game: 13th in yards, 23rd in YPC
TE: Eifert (only missed 3 games this time)
WR2: Marvin Jones
O-line: 27th most sacked QB (Good, but Dalton missed essentially 4 games, which helped the ranking)

3 out of 4 were good

2016
Run game: 13th in yards, 23rd in YPC
TE: Eifert for 8 games, Uzomah for 8 games
WR2: Brandon LaFell
O-line: 2nd most sacked QB

0 out of 4 were good

2017
Run game: 32nd in yards, 30th in YPC
TE: Tyler Kroft (Eifert missed entire season)
WR2: Bradon LaFell
O-line: 7th most sacked QB

0 out of 4 were good

So by my count...

- The run game has been good one time (2014) and below-average to horrible for 6 of 7 seasons.
- The TE situation has been good twice (2013 and 2015). Gresham and Kroft are/were average at best. 
- The WR2 situation has been good twice (2013 and 2015).
- The O-line (pass blocking only) has been good 4 times. It's been bad (very bad) 3 times.
- He's had 3 seasons where none of these things were good.
- He's had 2 seasons where 3 out of 4 were good, and those produced his best 2 seasons.
- He's never had everything perfect around him. Not once.

He's never had everything good all at once, and I'd even argue that his situation has been outright BAD 5 times in 7 years. AJ Green has fooled a lot of people. 

(12-20-2017, 02:48 PM)jason Wrote: I think prime time games count.

Since the 2.0 game, Dalton has an 89.6 rating in Prime-Time, with 16 TDs and only 7 INTs...yet the team is only 3-7-1 in those games.

Dalton is playing well in Prime-Time, yet we're still losing. Why?

[The Caped Crusader]

(12-20-2017, 04:36 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 2011
Run game: 19th in yards, 27th in YPC
TE: Gresham
WR2: Jerome Simpson
O-line: 23rd most sacked QB (Good)

2012
Run game: 18th in yards, 20th in YPC
TE: Gresham
WR2: Binns/Sanu/Jones (Binns with 5 starts, Sanu and Jones were rookies)
O-line: 3rd most sacked QB (Bad)

2013
Run game: 18th in yards, 28th in YPC
TE: Gresham/Eifert (Eifert's rookie season)
WR2: Marvin Jones
O-line: 21st most sacked QB (Good)

2014
Run game: 6th in yards, 12th in YPC
TE: Gresham (Eifert was supposed to take over, but missed entire season)
WR2: Sanu (Jones missed entire season, and Sanu was often the WR1 because Green missed several games)
O-line: 26th most sacked QB (Good)

2015
Run game: 13th in yards, 23rd in YPC
TE: Eifert (only missed 3 games this time)
WR2: Marvin Jones
O-line: 27th most sacked QB (Good, but Dalton missed essentially 4 games, which helped the ranking)

2016
Run game: 13th in yards, 23rd in YPC
TE: Eifert for 8 games, Uzomah for 8 games
WR2: Brandon LaFell
O-line: 2nd most sacked QB

2017
Run game: 32nd in yards, 30th in YPC
TE: Tyler Kroft (Eifert missed entire season)
WR2: Bradon LaFell
O-line: 7th most sacked QB

So by my count...

- The run game has been good one time (2014) and below-average to horrible for 6 of 7 seasons.
- The TE situation has been good twice (2013 and 2015). Gresham and Kroft are/were average at best. 
- The WR2 situation has been good twice (2013 and 2015).
- The O-line (pass blocking only) has been good 4 times. It's been bad (very bad) 3 times.

He's never had everything good all at once, and I'd even argue that his situation has been outright BAD 5 times in 7 years. AJ Green has fooled a lot of people. 


Since the 2.0 game, Dalton has an 89.6 rating in Prime-Time, with 16 TDs and only 7 INTs...yet the team is only 3-7-1 in those games.

Dalton is playing well in Prime-Time, yet we're still losing. Why?

He should've had 40 touchdowns, no interceptions. We drafted him as a number one overall pick with his incredible combine, and historic college records. Every draft analyst said he was going to be the best QB ever.

This is all his fault. If he was a GREAT QB like a Rodgers, he would run out of the pocket and avoid season ending injuries on every play.

[CJD]

(12-20-2017, 04:41 PM)The Caped Crusader Wrote: He should've had 40 touchdowns, no interceptions. We drafted him as a number one overall pick with his incredible combine, and historic college records. Every draft analyst said he was going to be the best QB ever.

This is all his fault. If he was a GREAT QB like a Rodgers, he would run out of the pocket and avoid season ending injuries on every play.

Straw man arguments serve no purpose in productive conversation.

[The Caped Crusader]

(12-20-2017, 05:33 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Straw man arguments serve no purpose in productive conversation.

Sarcasm to take the situation lightly, because lets be honest, we have had 'productive' conversations multiple times until we are ALL blue in the face.

Several times I've given breakdowns of my own opinions, infused with facts and went with it.

At the end of the day, we are 5-9 with multiple problems outside of our Quarterback position. We have an atrocious offensive line, we are dead last in offense, we give up almost 5 yards a carry (I think it's like 4.5 yards a carry) and have scored 14 points in the last two games (while giving up almost 70).

So, if we think blaming Dalton makes things easier, than so be it.

Is this more productive? I wasn't sure what I need to post to satisfy your reading material.

Like I said, at the end of the day, like any argument in politics, we all have our own opinions on it, but unless we are in the fold, nothing will (necessarily) change.

[masonbengals fan]

(12-20-2017, 03:46 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. Paul Daugherty has always been anti-Andy. So no surprise there. 

2. I'm not falling into the same trap of scapegoating the QB ala 2010 Palmer.

3. Dalton's stats the last 2 weeks are irrelevant to me. The team quit the moment they lost to the Steelers. For 10 straight weeks, this team at least showed fight, and Dalton played well through that stretch. We went from nearly beating probably the 2nd best NFL team, to losing 2 games by a combined score of 67-14. Yeah, Dalton has been terrible in those 2 games along with everyone else. Imagine that. Now we got folks jumping out from under their rocks to point at his passer rating ranking.  

So Dalton is 21st now in passer rating. Guess where that puts him? Right between Derek Carr and Cam Newton. Is that really unforgivable considering the circumstances? Lets not act like other good QB's don't have down years with bad circumstances. Our line? Shit. Run game? Shit. Receivers outside of AJ? Shit. Changed coordinators mid-season. Players quitting because Marv is quitting. Eifert injured again. Ross couldn't get on the field. LaFell looks done.

Lets be honest here. The situation isn't just "not great" it's crap. Dalton doesn't need an immaculate cast to perform at a good level. He just needs the team to not be in utter disarray. 

Is Dalton part of the solution moving forward? Idk...but he's not even a problem with this team. This team is just a shit show, and Dalton isn't an elite (top 3) QB we would need to overcome it. Fwiw, if we could get Josh Rosen somehow (trade up?), I'd be for it, but I don't like any of the other prospects. They all look like 2nd round picks (or later) that will be over-drafted out of desperation to fill a need.

At this stage, I'd rather wait it out and see how Dalton performs under a new coaching staff. If Dalton shows no improvement or still chokes away a playoff game, then I'd look elsewhere. Hopefully we'll be in a better spot or the QB class is better by then. Fwiw, I said the exact same thing about Palmer in 2011. I wanted to see at least 1 year of him without Bratkowski while Dalton sat and learned. 

Lot of truth here.

[Stonyhands]

(12-20-2017, 04:36 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 2011
Run game: 19th in yards, 27th in YPC
TE: Gresham
WR2: Jerome Simpson
O-line: 23rd most sacked QB (Good)

1 out of 4 were good

2012
Run game: 18th in yards, 20th in YPC
TE: Gresham
WR2: Binns/Sanu/Jones (Binns with 5 starts, Sanu and Jones were rookies)
O-line: 3rd most sacked QB (Bad)

0 out of 4 were good

2013
Run game: 18th in yards, 28th in YPC
TE: Gresham/Eifert (Eifert's rookie season)
WR2: Marvin Jones
O-line: 21st most sacked QB (Good)

3 out of 4 were good

2014
Run game: 6th in yards, 12th in YPC
TE: Gresham (Eifert was supposed to take over, but missed entire season)
WR2: Sanu (Jones missed entire season, and Sanu was often the WR1 because Green missed several games)
O-line: 26th most sacked QB (Good)

2 out of 4 were good

2015
Run game: 13th in yards, 23rd in YPC
TE: Eifert (only missed 3 games this time)
WR2: Marvin Jones
O-line: 27th most sacked QB (Good, but Dalton missed essentially 4 games, which helped the ranking)

3 out of 4 were good

2016
Run game: 13th in yards, 23rd in YPC
TE: Eifert for 8 games, Uzomah for 8 games
WR2: Brandon LaFell
O-line: 2nd most sacked QB

0 out of 4 were good

2017
Run game: 32nd in yards, 30th in YPC
TE: Tyler Kroft (Eifert missed entire season)
WR2: Bradon LaFell
O-line: 7th most sacked QB

0 out of 4 were good

So by my count...

- The run game has been good one time (2014) and below-average to horrible for 6 of 7 seasons.
- The TE situation has been good twice (2013 and 2015). Gresham and Kroft are/were average at best. 
- The WR2 situation has been good twice (2013 and 2015).
- The O-line (pass blocking only) has been good 4 times. It's been bad (very bad) 3 times.
- He's had 3 seasons where none of these things were good.
- He's had 2 seasons where 3 out of 4 were good, and those produced his best 2 seasons.
- He's never had everything perfect around him. Not once.

He's never had everything good all at once, and I'd even argue that his situation has been outright BAD 5 times in 7 years. AJ Green has fooled a lot of people. 


Since the 2.0 game, Dalton has an 89.6 rating in Prime-Time, with 16 TDs and only 7 INTs...yet the team is only 3-7-1 in those games.

Dalton is playing well in Prime-Time, yet we're still losing. Why?

All that shows me is that Dalton is incapable of making those around him better...like the good to great QBs of this league who you can plug damn near anybody in and they will still succeed.

Your stats show that Andy hasn’t had all the pieces around him in place and therefore that’s the reason why we haven’t won it all.

Name an average QB that went to the playoffs with the best o-line, WR1-WR3, TEs, and RBs and won a Super Bowl. Oh, and they can’t be a team that had a top 3 defense.

Problem is that teams should always be searching to have a QB who can elevate the players around them despite the conditions. It seems easier to find 1 guy like that than having to have an entire defense completely stacked with talent...I say easier but you have to be looking or it’s not going to happen.

[cooper]

(12-19-2017, 09:54 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: https://amp.cincinnati.com/amp/108714962?__twitter_impression=true

Oof... Some harsh words from Doc. However, he makes some valid points and I kind of agree with him. I like Dalton but let's be real: he's underwhelming and needs everything around him going perfect to be a consistently great QB. I'm ready for a fresh start, provided they approach this situation with some intelligence. As I said in another thread, address the Oline in round one. No matter what. Address the QB position in round 2, preferably Josh Allen and let him sit behind Dalton for awhile. I believe Dalton has two years remaining on his deal. Let him play it out while Allen learns behind him, or perhaps trade Dalton if Allen progresses nicely.

I was very impressed with Jeff Driscoll..  a few offensive linemen..linebacker  and  safety..with a  new voice in the lockeroom this team should be fine

and whomever made the decision not to re stock the offensive line in last years draft ..and instead took John Ross..they should be fired

[Steve]

(12-19-2017, 10:22 PM)Joelist Wrote: Nope. No drafting a QB until they fix the OL - and I mean REALLY fix it as in a legit Center, legit Guards and legit tackles. This whole "skill players in the early rounds" is a siren song to lure teams away from the reality that champions are built from the lines out and those lines are built from the inside out.

I agree 100%
WE HAVE TO FIX THIS O-LINE.....
& as you said,
from the inside out.....

if we can't run the ball & give our QB a clean pocket we're in trouble....
A.D. isn't perfect.....but how many perfect qb's are there....?

this teams "cancer" is the weak 0-line....
fix it EARLY... or there is no sense even suiting up next year....
I am sick of all these 3 & outs.....
vs. vikes we were 1 for 13 on first downs.....
SMH....
it all starts up front....
FIX IT..!!!!!

[Socal Bengals fan]

Dalton is garbage. time to move on. what exactly does he do well? .......

[Steve]

(12-20-2017, 08:02 PM)cooper Wrote: I was very impressed with Jeff Driscoll..  a few offensive linemen..linebacker  and  safety..with a  new voice in the lockeroom this team should be fine

and whomever made the decision not to re stock the offensive line in last years draft ..and instead took John Ross..they should be fired

I agree w/ BOTH of your points...

I too loved Jeff Driscoll.....
I would love it if he were to get a shot at the starting job at some point....he looked very impressive in last years pre-season games...
I think he out played McCarron by far...
both of our OT's should be replaced....but w/ their contracts i'm sure they'll both be playing next yr...
Bodine has to go....& I hope his replacement comes in rds 2 or 3...b/c we need a quality starter....

[Shake n Blake]

(12-20-2017, 07:54 PM)Stonyhands Wrote: All that shows me is that Dalton is incapable of making those around him better...like the good to great QBs of this league who you can plug damn near anybody in and they will still succeed.  

Your stats show that Andy hasn’t had all the pieces around him in place and therefore that’s the reason why we haven’t won it all.  

Name an average QB that went to the playoffs with the best o-line, WR1-WR3, TEs, and RBs and won a Super Bowl.  Oh, and they can’t be a team that had a top 3 defense.  

Problem is that teams should always be searching to have a QB who can elevate the players around them despite the conditions.  It seems easier  to find 1 guy like that than having to have an entire defense completely stacked with talent...I say easier but you have to be looking or it’s not going to happen.

I was addressing the narrative that Dalton has only produced when his situation has been amazing. Now that I've proven that's he's produced while rarely having a great situation, you want to switch the narrative to "he can't lift his teammates". This doesn't even make sense. Dalton can't make the RB's average a better YPC. He can't block for himself. He can't make guys like Simpson, Binns and Uzomah be something they're not. He got them to produce, sure...but they were still garbage players.

Smh. I'll go ahead and play along even though you missed the point. Since your criteria is winning a Super Bowl, I'll ask you to provide a list of good-to-great QB's who have won the whole shebang with an inefficient run game (20th or worse in YPC), a weak TE and WR2, while getting sacked 40+ times.

As for your question, nobody said Dalton needed "the best o-line, WR1-WR3, TEs, and RBs". You're purposely exaggerating and creating a strawman there. Dalton can and has made the playoffs 5 times with far less than that. He's 10th among active players in passer rating too. The only question is why he (the team) hasn't been able to win in the playoffs. I put that onus on Marvin. The guy who hasn't been able to get it done with 4 different QB's.

Dalton is basically Bobby Hebert to Marvin's Jim Mora. Hebert was awful in the playoffs, going 0-3 with a 57.1 rating...but he was coached by Jim Mora, who lost another playoff game with the Saints. Those QB's combined to go 11 of 34 with 3 INT's and a sparkling 11.0 rating. Then Mora moves on to Indy, where he coaches the great Peyton Manning to an 0-2 record in the playoffs with a 70.9 rating. This is when Peyton earned a choker label that took him years to get rid of. 

People need to realize that a HC can and does affect QB performance, as well as a teams performance in big moments. Coaches have a major impact despite so many on here inexplicably believing they don't.

---------------------------------------------------

To your comment about it being easier to find 1 guy (QB) rather than building a team around a good-not-great QB, I'll say this. Tell that to Russell Wilson. Tell that to Eli Manning, Drew Brees or Andrew Luck. When these good QB's had great talent around them, they've led their teams deep in the playoffs. When the talent around them stunk, what happened to their teams? Did they overcome and lead them anywhere?

Brees missed the playoffs how many times in a row before they fixed their run game and defense this year? Luck's team fell apart and so did he. Wilson is about to miss the playoffs because the Seahawks are falling apart. Poor Eli needs to run away from New York. Did these guys "elevate their teammates"? 

[GreenCornBengal]

(12-20-2017, 04:21 PM)ochocincos Wrote: While I agree with this approach, I see moving on from Dalton would open up the wallet a little more to address OL in FA.
And given the number of OL spots that need upgraded (four), the Bengals won't get immediate starters for all of those in one draft. They'll need a good FA or two.
Unfortunately, unless we see New England let Solder leave (highly doubtful), there isn't a LT worth picking up in FA. The RT market isn't very good either.
There are some solid C's and OG's that should be available in FA.
The upcoming draft has a handful of very strong interior OL prospects. The OT class looks more suited for run protection vs pass protection, but if that's acceptable then I could see an OT taken high.

Bengals also need another interior pass rusher, 3-down LB, and FS.

While I agree with you, have you not paid attention to how this organization operates?

The wallet is packed, they just don't open it.

Moving on from Dalton would give us more money.... to notspend.

[Shake n Blake]

(12-20-2017, 09:20 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: While I agree with you, have you not paid attention to how this organization operates?

The wallet is packed, they just don't open it.

Moving on from Dalton would give us more money.... to notspend.

They had somewhere in the neighborhood of $15 million in cap space while watching this disaster of a season unfold.

Makes me sick.

[*bfine32*]

Why does a QB need a running game to help him? Why can't the running game need a good QB to help it?

It's all about cause and effect; folks just differ on the cause. Andy Dalton has finished in the top dozen in the NFL exactly once in his NFL career and this year looks to be more of the same. Yet folks will continue this narrative that "if he has a decent supporting cast he can be a top 10 NFL QB".

WTS, nothing will change next year. There will be the same population saying Andy's Top 10 and LOL at sources that place him closer to 20 than 10. At the beginning of the year I rated Andy round 17; it appears I may have over-estimated; as it looks like he'll rank in the 20s for the 3rd time in his 7 year career.