Ownership philosophy is the problem

[Stonyhands]

Problem is Mike Brown and his antiquated ideals as to what makes a successful franchise. Until he changes his philosophy from building almost entirely from the draft this team is capped at making a playoff appearance at best.

The reasoning is that TEAMS win championships and you cannot build a Championship roster of players via the draft. It’s just not going to happen because you have guys developing and peaking at different times. As we’ve seen now we lose guys once they’ve peaked and have to go right back to developing new guys. We went through two cycles with Palmer and now we are on our second cycle with Dalton. Only the downward cycle at o-line destroyed Palmers elbow.

Marvin’s drafted real well as one could expect but they are still filling in holes with what are most likely rotational to mediocre guys from other teams late in free agency and expecting too much out of some of our later draft picks.

So until Brown changes his philosophy on free agency and stops promoting rejects within the organization to Coordinator positions / position coaches, it doesn’t matter who the head coach is.

On a side note...I don’t know who wields the power to bench underperforming players but I’d like to see some accountability and less job security for repeat underperforming offenders going forward. /rant

[kevin]

(01-02-2018, 08:33 PM)Stonyhands Wrote: Problem is Mike Brown and his antiquated ideals as to what makes a successful franchise.  Until he changes his philosophy from building almost entirely from the draft this team is capped at making a playoff appearance at best.  

The reasoning is that TEAMS win championships and you cannot build a Championship roster of players via the draft.  It’s just not going to happen because you have guys developing and peaking at different times.  As we’ve seen now we lose guys once they’ve peaked and have to go right back to developing new guys.  We went through two cycles with Palmer and now we are on our second cycle with Dalton.  Only the downward cycle at o-line destroyed Palmers elbow.  

Marvin’s drafted real well as one could expect but they are still filling in holes with what are most likely rotational to mediocre guys from other teams late in free agency and expecting too much out of some of our later draft picks.  

So until Brown changes his philosophy on free agency and stops promoting rejects within the organization to Coordinator positions / position coaches, it doesn’t matter who the head coach is.  

On a side note...I don’t know who wields the power to bench underperforming players but I’d like to see some accountability and less job security for repeat underperforming offenders going forward.  /rant

 THANK YOU....I've been saying this all along. People on here call it Mike Brown Bashing.  Well, he more than anybody deserves Bashing on this team....TIME is maybe in Fans favor...Pete Brown just passed away and Mike Brown is no Spring chicken...I see a changing of the guard in this front office as TIME, OLD AGE, and DEATH wait for no man.  I do not wish this on him or anyone, but the fact remains that TIME and AGE are going to FORCE front office moves. They already have with God calling Pete Brown assistant GM unto Heaven....For the Fans, I hope the front office changes bring more wins. I am 63 and TIME is not in my favor either, but for the younger fans, I hope front office changes bring more wins.

[McC]

(01-02-2018, 08:33 PM)Stonyhands Wrote: Problem is Mike Brown and his antiquated ideals as to what makes a successful franchise.  Until he changes his philosophy from building almost entirely from the draft this team is capped at making a playoff appearance at best.  

The reasoning is that TEAMS win championships and you cannot build a Championship roster of players via the draft.  It’s just not going to happen because you have guys developing and peaking at different times.  As we’ve seen now we lose guys once they’ve peaked and have to go right back to developing new guys.  We went through two cycles with Palmer and now we are on our second cycle with Dalton.  Only the downward cycle at o-line destroyed Palmers elbow.  

Marvin’s drafted real well as one could expect but they are still filling in holes with what are most likely rotational to mediocre guys from other teams late in free agency and expecting too much out of some of our later draft picks.  

So until Brown changes his philosophy on free agency and stops promoting rejects within the organization to Coordinator positions / position coaches, it doesn’t matter who the head coach is.  

On a side note...I don’t know who wields the power to bench underperforming players but I’d like to see some accountability and less job security for repeat underperforming offenders going forward.  /rant

Their philosophy?  It's simple--hire every idiot member of the idiot family and pay a bunch of your friends for life to pretend to run a football team and be all warm and cozy living under the big soft blanket of revenue sharing that guarantees we can keep raking in cash from our toy and laugh at our customers all the way to the bank.

[whodey1967]

Wait...I don't realize MB even had anything resembling a philosophy.

[Dark-Net-Axon]

(01-02-2018, 08:33 PM)Stonyhands Wrote: Problem is Mike Brown and his antiquated ideals as to what makes a successful franchise.  Until he changes his philosophy from building almost entirely from the draft this team is capped at making a playoff appearance at best.  

The reasoning is that TEAMS win championships and you cannot build a Championship roster of players via the draft.  It’s just not going to happen because you have guys developing and peaking at different times.  As we’ve seen now we lose guys once they’ve peaked and have to go right back to developing new guys.  We went through two cycles with Palmer and now we are on our second cycle with Dalton.  Only the downward cycle at o-line destroyed Palmers elbow.  

Marvin’s drafted real well as one could expect but they are still filling in holes with what are most likely rotational to mediocre guys from other teams late in free agency and expecting too much out of some of our later draft picks.  

So until Brown changes his philosophy on free agency and stops promoting rejects within the organization to Coordinator positions / position coaches, it doesn’t matter who the head coach is.  

On a side note...I don’t know who wields the power to bench underperforming players but I’d like to see some accountability and less job security for repeat underperforming offenders going forward.  /rant

In an ever-changing league, Brown has been infuriatingly consistent in his refusal to adapt accordingly.

[Derrick]

(01-02-2018, 08:33 PM)Stonyhands Wrote: Problem is Mike Brown and his antiquated ideals as to what makes a successful franchise.  Until he changes his philosophy from building almost entirely from the draft this team is capped at making a playoff appearance at best.  

The reasoning is that TEAMS win championships and you cannot build a Championship roster of players via the draft.  It’s just not going to happen because you have guys developing and peaking at different times.  As we’ve seen now we lose guys once they’ve peaked and have to go right back to developing new guys.  We went through two cycles with Palmer and now we are on our second cycle with Dalton.  Only the downward cycle at o-line destroyed Palmers elbow.  

Marvin’s drafted real well as one could expect but they are still filling in holes with what are most likely rotational to mediocre guys from other teams late in free agency and expecting too much out of some of our later draft picks.  

So until Brown changes his philosophy on free agency and stops promoting rejects within the organization to Coordinator positions / position coaches, it doesn’t matter who the head coach is.  

On a side note...I don’t know who wields the power to bench underperforming players but I’d like to see some accountability and less job security for repeat underperforming offenders going forward.  /rant

Mike brown is a scared, cowardly little shit of a man who does NOT respect the fans.

[Rattler]

Stupidity is the problem, along with a lawyers greed.

[*PhilHos*]

(01-02-2018, 08:33 PM)Stonyhands Wrote: Problem is Mike Brown and his antiquated ideals as to what makes a successful franchise.  Until he changes his philosophy from building almost entirely from the draft this team is capped at making a playoff appearance at best.  

The reasoning is that TEAMS win championships and you cannot build a Championship roster of players via the draft.  It’s just not going to happen because you have guys developing and peaking at different times.  As we’ve seen now we lose guys once they’ve peaked and have to go right back to developing new guys.  We went through two cycles with Palmer and now we are on our second cycle with Dalton.  Only the downward cycle at o-line destroyed Palmers elbow.  

Marvin’s drafted real well as one could expect but they are still filling in holes with what are most likely rotational to mediocre guys from other teams late in free agency and expecting too much out of some of our later draft picks.  

So until Brown changes his philosophy on free agency and stops promoting rejects within the organization to Coordinator positions / position coaches, it doesn’t matter who the head coach is.  

On a side note...I don’t know who wields the power to bench underperforming players but I’d like to see some accountability and less job security for repeat underperforming offenders going forward.  /rant

Is there anyone who has said anything otherwise? (Other than Mike Brown and Merv, that is)

[*ochocincos*]

(01-02-2018, 08:33 PM)Stonyhands Wrote: Problem is Mike Brown and his antiquated ideals as to what makes a successful franchise.  Until he changes his philosophy from building almost entirely from the draft this team is capped at making a playoff appearance at best.  

The reasoning is that TEAMS win championships and you cannot build a Championship roster of players via the draft.  It’s just not going to happen because you have guys developing and peaking at different times.  As we’ve seen now we lose guys once they’ve peaked and have to go right back to developing new guys.  We went through two cycles with Palmer and now we are on our second cycle with Dalton.  Only the downward cycle at o-line destroyed Palmers elbow.  

Marvin’s drafted real well as one could expect but they are still filling in holes with what are most likely rotational to mediocre guys from other teams late in free agency and expecting too much out of some of our later draft picks.  

So until Brown changes his philosophy on free agency and stops promoting rejects within the organization to Coordinator positions / position coaches, it doesn’t matter who the head coach is.  

On a side note...I don’t know who wields the power to bench underperforming players but I’d like to see some accountability and less job security for repeat underperforming offenders going forward.  /rant

I agree to some extent, but another problem is the Bengals don't utilize their players on rookie contracts enough and/or draft good enough players that can contribute within their first 1-2 years and be at least serviceable.

Meanwhile, you have the Saints and Falcons getting a TON of production from their recent draft picks from the past 2-3 years and it's why they've been as successful as they have been.

[*Go Cards*]

Believe most know winning with MB is like running a race with a ball and chain around your ankle.

But will say we had a nice window of opportunity in recent years that we blew.

4 of our coaches from that window became HC's even and had many nice players who were rewarded in FA.

[bengalguy71]

(01-02-2018, 08:33 PM)Stonyhands Wrote: Problem is Mike Brown and his antiquated ideals as to what makes a successful franchise.  Until he changes his philosophy from building almost entirely from the draft this team is capped at making a playoff appearance at best.  

The reasoning is that TEAMS win championships and you cannot build a Championship roster of players via the draft.  It’s just not going to happen because you have guys developing and peaking at different times.  As we’ve seen now we lose guys once they’ve peaked and have to go right back to developing new guys.  We went through two cycles with Palmer and now we are on our second cycle with Dalton.  Only the downward cycle at o-line destroyed Palmers elbow.  

Marvin’s drafted real well as one could expect but they are still filling in holes with what are most likely rotational to mediocre guys from other teams late in free agency and expecting too much out of some of our later draft picks.  

So until Brown changes his philosophy on free agency and stops promoting rejects within the organization to Coordinator positions / position coaches, it doesn’t matter who the head coach is.  

On a side note...I don’t know who wields the power to bench underperforming players but I’d like to see some accountability and less job security for repeat underperforming offenders going forward.  /rant

You finally figured this out??  

[Stonyhands]

(01-09-2018, 12:02 PM)bengalguy71 Wrote: You finally figured this out??  

I’ve known this awhile. Just thought I’d put it out there since there’s a lot of talk about Marvin Lewis being the issue with why we can’t succeed in the postseason. While he may be a part of it...it’s 99% Mike Brown and his antiquated ways.

He seems more interested in running this franchise as a family business outreach program for football players who wouldn’t have a team if not for the Bengals.

If he strictly ran the franchise as the Patriots do...rewarding good performance and cutting players when they don’t better the team he’d attract better character players and a winning environment.

[grampahol]

Introducing the new and improved dead horse suitable for beating by any Bengals fan at any time..and comes with it's own unique 5 point stand..

[fredtoast]

(01-09-2018, 11:24 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I agree to some extent, but another problem is the Bengals don't utilize their players on rookie contracts enough and/or draft good enough players that can contribute within their first 1-2 years and be at least serviceable.

Meanwhile, you have the Saints and Falcons getting a TON of production from their recent draft picks from the past 2-3 years and it's why they've been as successful as they have been.

Bengals get as much, if not more, out of rookies and young players as the average NFL team.

These numbers do not include 2017, but they cover 10 years so it does not make much difference.

According to profootballreference over the last ten years there have been 227 different rookies who started at least 14 games. Since there are 32 teams that is an average of 7.1 per team. Over the last ten years the Bengals have 7 different rookies who have started at least 14 games.


When we expand it beyond just rookie seasons it does not change very much. Looking at the first three seasons of every player's career over the last 10 years there were 785 who had at least one season with at least 14 starts in his first three years. That is an average of 24.5 per team, and the Bengals have had 24.

233 players had two seasons with at least 14 starts in their first 3 years. That is an average of 7.6 per team and the Bengals have had 7.

Only 80 players started at least 14 games in each of their first three seasons. That is an average of 2.5 per team and the Bengals have had 3.

[fredtoast]

(01-09-2018, 11:23 AM)PhilHos Wrote: Is there anyone who has said anything otherwise? (Other than Mike Brown and Merv, that is)

Some people claim Marvin is to blame.  Others say Andy Dalton.

Marvin has been coaching with a handicap.  His record is more impressive if you take that into account.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-09-2018, 05:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Bengals get as much, if not more, out of rookies and young players as the average NFL team.

These numbers do not include 2017, but they cover 10 years so it does not make much difference.

According to profootballreference over the last ten years there have been 227 different rookies who started at least 14 games. Since there are 32 teams that is an average of 7.1 per team. Over the last ten years the Bengals have 7 different rookies who have started at least 14 games.


When we expand it beyond just rookie seasons it does not change very much. Looking at the first three seasons of every player's career over the last 10 years there were 785 who had at least one season with at least 14 starts in his first three years. That is an average of 24.5 per team, and the Bengals have had 24.

233 players had two seasons with at least 14 starts in their first 3 years. That is an average of 7.6 per team and the Bengals have had 7.

Only 80 players started at least 14 games in each of their first three seasons. That is an average of 2.5 per team and the Bengals have had 3.

I wasn't talking about the average across the teams. I was specifically referring to the Saints and Falcons, both teams who have gotten a lot of production out of many of their rookies, 2nd years, and 3rd years in the past few seasons. Plus I said PRODUCTION, not just games started. To me, there's a difference.

Saints:
Michael Thomas (2)
Ryan Ramczyk ®
Alvin Kamara ®
Sheldon Rankins (2)
Marcus Lattimore ®
Marcus Williams ®
Vonn Bell (2)

Falcons:
Austin Hooper (2)
Tevin Coleman (3)
Grady Jarrett (3)
Vic Beasley (3)
Deion Jones (2)
Takkarist McKinley ®
DeVondre Campbell (2)
Keanu Neal (2)
Brian Poole (2)

Wes Schweitzer (2) is also starting guard be he hasn't been very good, so I didn't count him in the above list.

Bengals started some young players, sure. But they didn't have good seasons and it's a part of why they have had a losing record the past two seasons.
Tyler Boyd (good last year, hardly anything this year)
Trey Hopkins (not good this year)
Cedric Ogbuehi (bad every year)
Jake Fisher (not good, inconsistent at best)
Josh Shaw (looked good previous two seasons, but not good this year)
Nick Vigil (not good this year)
Andrew Billings + Ryan Glasgow (struggled this year)

IMO they did get good production from the following young players:
Joe Mixon
Tyler Kroft
Carl Lawson
Jordan Willis
William Jackson III

But for all of the above, Kroft was the only starter and that was only due to injury. IMO Mixon, Lawson, Willis, and WJ3 got too few snaps and deserved more.

EDIT - Also, welcome back!

[firstand10]

According to MB when asked about his team being more aggressive, his answer " We are very aggresive,but, aggressiveness reflects on rest of team. We're the least penalized in the NFL."

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-02-2018, 08:33 PM)Stonyhands Wrote: Problem is Mike Brown and his antiquated ideals as to what makes a successful franchise.  Until he changes his philosophy from building almost entirely from the draft this team is capped at making a playoff appearance at best.  

The reasoning is that TEAMS win championships and you cannot build a Championship roster of players via the draft.  It’s just not going to happen because you have guys developing and peaking at different times.  As we’ve seen now we lose guys once they’ve peaked and have to go right back to developing new guys.  We went through two cycles with Palmer and now we are on our second cycle with Dalton.  Only the downward cycle at o-line destroyed Palmers elbow.  

Marvin’s drafted real well as one could expect but they are still filling in holes with what are most likely rotational to mediocre guys from other teams late in free agency and expecting too much out of some of our later draft picks.  

So until Brown changes his philosophy on free agency and stops promoting rejects within the organization to Coordinator positions / position coaches, it doesn’t matter who the head coach is.  

On a side note...I don’t know who wields the power to bench underperforming players but I’d like to see some accountability and less job security for repeat underperforming offenders going forward.  /rant

Completely accurate, the draft is a crapshoot and all the players are unproven. You have to grab some proven players
to add to your team to truly build a SB team and the proven players are in FA. I just hope this is one of Marv's demands
and MB has to open up the wallet this time around if he truly wants that Superbowl.

Our coaches in the past were never good enough to coach the young players up fast enough. This has also been a big
problem, specifically with the O-line.

[SunsetBengal]

Congratulations Stonyhands! You've made the transition, you may now pick up your distinctive jacket from the board office.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-09-2018, 01:55 PM)Stonyhands Wrote: I’ve known this awhile.  Just thought I’d put it out there since there’s a lot of talk about Marvin Lewis being the issue with why we can’t succeed in the postseason.  While he may be a part of it...it’s 99% Mike Brown and his antiquated ways.  

He seems more interested in running this franchise as a family business outreach program for football players who wouldn’t have a team if not for the Bengals.  

If he strictly ran the franchise as the Patriots do...rewarding good performance and cutting players when they don’t better the team he’d attract better character players and a winning environment.

While i definately agree that this conservative approach in FA makes it nearly impossible to improve into a SB contender,
Marv and his terrible 2nd halfs are another huge reason we don't succeed in the postseason. Maybe if him and his coaches
could coach up these young players by the postseason this would help once we get there?

Most is definately on MB and his antiquated ways but a lot has been on Marv in the past as well. Just hoping that Marv
getting to pick his own coaches is a start at actually our coaches doing better in coaching our players.