WHERE DID MARVIN GO WRONG?

[WildCat]

here's a thought about this subject. bill belichick is the only coach that supersedes marvin in years coaching the same team. he plays with house money year in and year out he just puts together teams that win consistently and in the playoffs. he's confident knowing his owner will stick with him. how come marvin hasn't had this same sort of leisure about him? he knows his job is safe every year, why doesn't he just go all out? throw caution to the wind, go for broke. there's 2 reasons for this imo. first as most have said terrible owner meddling far too much in player dealings, like free agency for example. second is marvin is just a soft creampuff and it's evidenced by the way he's been trying to finish games for years and years, with no adjustments to mention. he relies on turnovers which is why his 2005 team was damn near the best he had. the reason why the defense got so good was cuz of zimmer and his ability to motivate players. once he was gone it was all downhill. the bengals made the blunder as they always do of letting zimmer go when they had their chance at hiring him as the head coach. which should be obvious now.

[Shake n Blake]

(01-05-2018, 09:12 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Good point.  Perhaps the only explanation that I can think of is that being HC of the Bengals requires much more time devoted to managerial duties than HCs of other teams?  He is in a unique sort of position, on a very unique franchise (by most modern standards).

But, even at that, I would think that he would have time to speak with coaches during meetings.  You know, delegate what he wants to see done with the respective units.  That is a very interesting question that you bring up.

Right. He's been working with Mike for 15 years now, so I'm sure he's had a pretty good routine down for much of his tenure. I'm sure there's a bit more on his plate in the off-season than a typical coach (not as much as some think, IMO), but once the season's going and the bullets are flying, I'm sure it's no different than any other HC gig. So it's hard for me to use that as an excuse for the PT/Pitt/playoff failures. 

Now if you want to bring up the lack of practice facility, lack of real free agents and being tethered to Paul Alexander...Those are possibly valid excuses for Marvin. Although I still feel he does something that causes this team to wither in the big games.

(01-05-2018, 10:16 PM)McC Wrote: First and foremost, Marvin has only been as good or as bad as his coordinators.  He had two great years, '05, '15, both brought down by injuries.

There's only been one season where Marvin has been aces on both sides of the ball.  In '05, the defense was not really that great but they did have the amazing turnover season.  Then Carson and Co. would make teams pay.  But the defense was not a SB defense.

The '15 team was his best all around, I would say.  But they still didn't run the ball like '05.

Marvin, in all these years, has never really been able to assemble the team he really wants.  He wants the 2000 Ravens.

And that brings me to what I believe is his downfall.  It's a thing he shares with his boss--arrogant, misguided stubbornness, wrongly believing you are the smartest guy in the room.

That 2013 team was great, too. 8-0 at home. I agree about his ego. You just get the sense that he's had his hands in the offense and defense, and he's been more stubborn (on some things) than an 0-7 playoff coach should be. 

[*pally*]

He handed over too much to the coordinators which may have been ok with Zimmerman and Hue but didn't work with Zampese and Guenther. As evidenced by his removal, Alexander's line never looked like they were blocking for the schemes the OC was calling. the wide receivers ran lazy routes, Jeremy Hill couldn't get out of his own head. Players didn't seem to fit the schemes we were running. Defensively we lost the aggressiveness that Marvin was known for. Out linebackers have never been utilized well, our inability to guard a TE was notorious.
I think in this upcoming season we will see a more hands on Marvin

[Fan_in_Kettering]

Marvin Lewis’ biggest mistake took place in his initial hiring when he didn’t demand total control over hiring his staff. What head coach in his right mind accepts substandard position coaches from the previous regime of complete losers? Inheriting the hapless Paul Alexander was a travesty which Marvin should have fought.

[Bengalholic]

(01-06-2018, 03:09 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Now if you want to bring up the lack of practice facility, lack of real free agents and being tethered to Paul Alexander...Those are possibly valid excuses for Marvin. Although I still feel he does something that causes this team to wither in the big games.

The numbers would certainly suggest that he'll never be ready for the big stage, and that he also struggles with competing in his own conference on a consistent basis...

Marvin now shares the NFL record for most games coached without a playoff win.
He holds the NFL records for most playoff losses and most consecutive playoff losses.
Of the 25 coaches in NFL history with 15+ seasons and 7+ playoff games, he is the one of only two guys that don't have at least 4 playoff wins. The other guy, Steve Owen, won 2.

He is 90-90 in the regular season versus the rest of the AFC in his career, but just 68-82 against AFC teams not from Cleveland. (68-89 if you count the playoffs)

His record against the top 5 teams in the AFC during his tenure (total wins + PO berths) is 33-52. (33-55 counting PO's)
 
Of course, this doesn't even include the overall prime time record or the embarrassing home record against the Steelers.

But with all that in mind, he is currently the second longest tenured coach in the NFL behind only a future HOFer that has 5 SB titles and 26 playoff wins. 

[Bengalholic]

(01-06-2018, 02:03 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Marvin Lewis’ biggest mistake took place in his initial hiring when he didn’t demand total control over hiring his staff.  What head coach in his right mind accepts substandard position coaches from the previous regime of complete losers?  Inheriting the hapless Paul Alexander was a travesty which Marvin should have fought.

In 2000, new Patriots coach Bill Belichick brought in 11 of his own guys, and inherited/retained 5.

In 2003, new Bengals coach Marvin Lewis brought in 9 of his own guys, and inherited/retained 6.

Marvin also promoted Alexander (Buffalo was interested him), Kevin Coyle, Louie Cioffi and Bob Surace.

As to naming Alexander asst HC, Marvin would later say:

“It has been important to me to have Paul as an advisor, as well as having him for his work with our offensive line,” said Lewis. “When I first came here, his knowledge of our team gave me a source for some very important direction. Since then, he has helped me in a lot of areas off and on the field.”

[*bfine32*]

I think Marvin got tired of everyone complaining about us having a playoff team for 5 straight years ans 6 of 7, so he said "Watch this".


OK, where Marvin has gone wrong the last couple years is that he has let professional veterans walk. He has admitted in interviews that he lets the vets mentor the younger players in the team rooms. Oline room lost Whit, CBs lost Hall, TEs lost Gresh, WRs never had one (Tate maybe), Ss lost Nelson, Dline lost Peko, RBs lost Peerman. Hell I think Harrison helped the LBs when he was here

It's great to let the vets mentor the young'uns, you just got to ensure you have the proper vets. So the short answer is he mismanaged his team leaders; hopefully, The Dunlap's, Iloka's, Bernards, of the team will assume the roles or we sign a true professional vet such as Tolbert, Amendola, Gates, Solder, Poluszinski, ect...from winning organizations. OUR PLAYERS don't know how to win.;

[3wt]

Actually I think one of his big problems has been meddling with his coordinators as evidenced by his handling of Leslie Frasier, throwing Guenther under the bus and meddling with the offensive coordinators. The only guy he truly left alone was Zimmer because Zim was unquestionably the leader of that group and had the credibility that other coordinators just haven't had. Jackson seemed to be the most free of his offensive coordinators.

This is an outside in perception, and I could be totally wrong. But that is the impression I get. I think it may be one of the reasons that Guenther was as eager to make the lateral move that he did. I say one of the reasons because it never hurts to play for a high profile guy like Jon Gruden.

Marvin's done a lot of good things here. But the sense I have from people like Palmer leaving was that he has had a problem from meddling where he should not.

I think he pushed for the right thing in demanding the autonomy regarding his coaching staff and his personnel that I believe he did. I hope he gets the right staff together and that he and they have the right blend of influence on how their respective areas (offense/ defense) are run.

I am very cautiously hopeful that the changes he makes will bear fruit - especially regarding the OC and the OL coach to be named.

[Bengalholic]

(01-06-2018, 04:22 PM)3wt Wrote: I think he pushed for the right thing in demanding the autonomy regarding his coaching staff and his personnel that I believe he did.   I hope he gets the right staff together and that he and they have the right blend of influence on how their respective areas (offense/ defense) are run.

Just curious...outside of Alexander (and maybe Lippencott's kid) which coach on this past season's staff wasn't chosen and/or promoted by Marvin?

[McC]

(01-06-2018, 03:30 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: In 2000, new Patriots coach Bill Belichick brought in 11 of his own guys, and inherited/retained 5.

In 2003, new Bengals coach Marvin Lewis brought in 9 of his own guys, and inherited/retained 6.

Marvin also promoted Alexander (Buffalo was interested him), Kevin Coyle, Louie Cioffi and Bob Surace.

As to naming Alexander asst HC, Marvin would later say:

“It has been important to me to have Paul as an advisor, as well as having him for his work with our offensive line,” said Lewis. “When I first came here, his knowledge of our team gave me a source for some very important direction. Since then, he has helped me in a lot of areas off and on the field.”

Good God.  He wasn't saddled with him, he was attached to him.  Did Lazor actually convince Marv to get rid of his buddy?

[Bengalholic]

(01-06-2018, 05:05 PM)McC Wrote: Good God.  He wasn't saddled with him, he was attached to him.  Did Lazor actually convince Marv to get rid of his buddy?

Yeah, this whole narrative that's getting passed around by a few about how much better Marvin might be now that he can pick his own coaches is just odd, considering he's being picking his own coaches for years. 

[McC]

(01-06-2018, 05:12 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Yeah, this whole narrative that's getting passed around by a few about how much better Marvin might be now that he can pick his own coaches is just odd, considering he's being picking his own coaches for years. 

I can't get rid of the feeling that this is just another PR stunt like 2010 and nothing at all will change.   And all of the things Merv said had to be done better will be done just the same as always.  The only difference this time is Paul Appeasement.

The common theme in each reboot is that he learned nothing in any of them and they all ended the same way--in misery.

[*bfine32*]

(01-06-2018, 05:12 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Yeah, this whole narrative that's getting passed around by a few about how much better Marvin might be now that he can pick his own coaches is just odd, considering he's being picking his own coaches for years. 

No doubt. The board has been flooded with how good Marvin will be. 

[Bengalholic]

(01-06-2018, 05:44 PM)bfine32 Wrote: No doubt. The board has been flooded with how good Marvin will be. 

You read a comment about a very limited narrative and translated that into an extremely broad generality? 

[CornerBlitz]

It's the wrong question to ask. Marvin has never had it right, so to ask when he went wrong makes no sense.

He's a mediocre coach which leads to mediocre results. It's been that way for 15 seasons and nothing i've seen indicates that will change.

[*bfine32*]

(01-06-2018, 05:49 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: You read a comment about a very limited narrative and translated that into an extremely broad generality? 

Is that what I did? 

I thought I challenged the thought of this Narrative going around that Marvin will be good now. I'm just not seeing this narrative. Matter of fact I'm seeing the exact opposite. 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-06-2018, 05:52 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: It's the wrong question to ask. Marvin has never had it right, so to ask when he went wrong makes no sense.

He's a mediocre coach which leads to mediocre results. It's been that way for 15 seasons and nothing i've seen indicates that will change.

Everyone knows the 16th time’s a charm!

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-06-2018, 05:12 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Yeah, this whole narrative that's getting passed around by a few about how much better Marvin might be now that he can pick his own coaches is just odd, considering he's being picking his own coaches for years. 

(01-06-2018, 05:44 PM)bfine32 Wrote: No doubt. The board has been flooded with how good Marvin will be. 

Something doesn't add up here...

[GodFather]

Where did Marvin go wrong? The bar was so low when he came here that anything was seen as a euphoric success...now that is over and people want more, Marvin's is at his ceiling and cant take it to the next level.

Its that simple...or isn't...

[*bfine32*]

(01-06-2018, 07:03 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Something doesn't add up here...

I'm with you. I haven't seen anyone pass around the Narrative that Marvin will now be good; much less a few people.