Foles vs McCarron

[Shake n Blake]

(02-05-2018, 11:07 PM)jfkbengals Wrote: It was never going to be a TD.  It would have been a nice gain and moved the chains, but there was no way in hell he was going to make it into the end zone. 

Fair enough considering I could probably outrun Brady, but that drop made it 4th down, and the drop combined with an incompletion thrown by Brady caused a turnover on downs. It was a big deal, if we're comparing Brady's performance to Foles'...who was amazing himself. If we're going to bring up Foles having an INT and Brady having none, I think it's fair to shine a light on the miscues Brady had that didn't show up in the stat line. Which includes the fumble, drop and incompletion on 4th down.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-05-2018, 11:01 PM)jfkbengals Wrote: And last night showed it even more so.  Every throw was essentially predetermined from the get go.  Defenses will spend the offseason assessing the system and will catch up pretty quickly, and then Foles will be back looking like the guy who was in St. Louis and KC.  He played a great game yesterday, but there was no reading of defenses and changing into the right plays.  Instead it was reading an end or backer and throwing accordingly, as well as some very lucky breaks (not overturning the Clement TD, not calling Illegal Formation on the trick play TD).

You're exactly right.....and that's why Wentz will be the starter when he returns.  Casual fans just look at the surface.....they're not thinking about the coaching decisions.  Doug Williams had a helluva Super Bowl too.

I watched a little of the replay last night on NFL Network.  They ran out of that scheme a great deal of the game.  Of course without a threatening rushing attack, the RPO is as impotent as PA pass.  The Iggles have a bruising ground game, which opens up the run-pass-option, AND the PA pass.  It's a lot of the problem in Cincy.  There's no ground game to open up the possibilities.  Casual fans don't understand this either.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-05-2018, 11:19 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: For anyone interested (probably not many), here's every game Foles played for Andy Reid - who as far as I know - didn't run RPO:

22-32-219-1-0 (85.3 rating)
21-46-204-0-2 (40.5)
16-21-119-0-0 (89.2)
22-34-251-1-0 (96.6)
32-51-381-2-0 (98.6)
16-33-180-1-1 (62.7) *vs Bengals
32-48-345-1-1 (85.9)

This was all as a rookie. Then he had these 2 games for Reid in KC:

16-22-223-2-0 (135.2 rating)
20-33-187-1-0 (86.3)

Totals for Reid: 197-320-2109-9-5 (83.7 rating)

Not bad considering most of it was as a rookie...and he was running a traditional offense.

That is interesting.  Maybe you're right....it could have been Fisher and his philosophy.....just like Merv here.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-05-2018, 11:02 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Exactly who I was thinking of as I watched some of his throws. He just doesn't have much mustard on anything anymore.


1. I know it's cliche, but you can't just look at the stats. Brady added on 82 yards on pretty meaningless drives at the end of the 1st half and end of the game. He also had a crucial fumble (understatement), dropped his TD pass (Foles caught his) and had a turnover on downs (2 straight incompletions). Not that Brady was bad by any stretch. He was great...but Foles was just as good, if not better, taking all into consideration.


2. Foles' 119.2 rating in 2013 is the 3rd best rating in NFL history. That makes it one of the best passing seasons in history. He actually did throw for 3086 yards (29 TDs) that season (counting the playoff game) in only 11 starts. He was well above a 3000 yard pace in 2012, 2013, 2014 and threw for 1508 yards in 6 starts this season (4000 yard pace). He just hasn't started enough games. In 2012 and 2013, Michael Vick was still around and held in high regard. In 2014, Foles broke his collarbone after 8 games/starts. 

Then there was the season with Jeff Fisher's Rams, which ruined Foles' reputation. After that, he had 2 great games for KC, before making his triumphant return to Philly. 

IMO, the anomaly was the season with Fisher (69.0 rating, 4-7 record). Outside of that, Foles has a 21-11 record (counting playoffs) and has averaged around 4000 yards and 28 TDs per 16 games, with a 95.1 rating. There's plenty of evidence that he can be "the guy" for someone. He's shown a lot of promise for everyone outside of Jeff Fisher, turning in great performances for Kelly, Reid and Pederson.

3. Wentz ran a lot of RPO this year, too...and I don't see anyone doubting him (he wasn't nearly as good as a rookie). Tbh, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. The RPO stuff probably brings out the best in Foles, but he's also probably way better than what he showed in 2015 with Fisher the QB killer. I don't think Foles was running RPO with Andy Reid, when he turned in a promising rookie season, then had 2 very good games in KC for Reid as well. 

It's also fair to note that Foles was injured up til Wentz got hurt, and had virtually no practice time in the offense...which may explain the fade down the stretch and the more heavy reliance on RPO in the playoffs. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------

TL/DR: If we throw out this year and his time with Chip - attributing all of Foles' success to RPO - it's only fair to also throw out his year with Jeff Fisher, who sucks with QB's. That leaves out most of Foles' career, leaving only his time with Andy Reid (the guy that drafted him). He showed plenty of promise in that time, but that only entails 9 games in 2 seasons. 

If you look at all this, it's tough to properly gauge Foles either way. I feel good about the guy, but I understand not being fully sold.

Brady had quite a bit of YAC to help pad that 505 as well.  As Al Michaels, I believe it was, noted.....Brady becomes almost average when you pressure him.  He was getting hit a lot in the 1st half, and as a result, he looked off in the 1st half.  Balls behind receivers, wobbly ducks, underthrow to Amendola, I mean, he didn't look normal Brady despite the yards.  In the second half, the line afforded him more time, and he got back to being Brady.  Of course, Brady is always ice in the 2nd half anyway....lol.  Talk about a cool customer.

[J24]

If you put Andy in Philly this year he probably wins MVP, Superbowl, and Superbowl MVP. Eagles line and offensive weapons are a lot better than it is here. Foles doesn't even throw 20 TD passes here.

[Shake n Blake]

(02-06-2018, 10:36 AM)Wyche Wrote: That is interesting.  Maybe you're right....it could have been Fisher and his philosophy.....just like Merv here.

I can't help but look at how Goff and Foles played for Fisher, then how they played since. Goff looked like a bust and Foles considered retirement before 30.

Now look at them. Some of these old school defense-minded coaches just can't get the best out of QB's.

(02-06-2018, 10:41 AM)Wyche Wrote: Brady had quite a bit of YAC to help pad that 505 as well.  As Al Michaels, I believe it was, noted.....Brady becomes almost average when you pressure him.  He was getting hit a lot in the 1st half, and as a result, he looked off in the 1st half.  Balls behind receivers, wobbly ducks, underthrow to Amendola, I mean, he didn't look normal Brady despite the yards.  In the second half, the line afforded him more time, and he got back to being Brady.  Of course, Brady is always ice in the 2nd half anyway....lol.  Talk about a cool customer.

Totally agree. Despite the stats, Brady looks jittery back there, and his arm is about shot. That said, he led what...4 TD drives in a row at one point? Terrible secondary play all around last night, but still...it wasn't a bad performance by any stretch. He's just showing some cracks in the armor at 40. He should probably retire now, because I think next year will be the big fall for him, if he returns.

(02-06-2018, 01:29 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: If you put Andy in Philly this year he probably wins MVP, Superbowl, and Superbowl MVP. Eagles line and offensive weapons are a lot better than it is here. Foles doesn't even throw 20 TD passes here.

Pederson and Reich are both former QB's and came out looking like geniuses. Both in their development of Wentz and for their handling of Foles.

Not every coach is great with QB's. I'd love to see Andy play for a couple QB whisperers instead of Marv.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-06-2018, 02:16 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I can't help but look at how Goff and Foles played for Fisher, then how they played since. Goff looked like a bust and Foles considered retirement before 30.

Now look at them. Some of these old school defense-minded coaches just can't get the best out of QB's.


Totally agree. Despite the stats, Brady looks jittery back there, and his arm is about shot. That said, he led what...4 TD drives in a row at one point? Terrible secondary play all around last night, but still...it wasn't a bad performance by any stretch. He's just showing some cracks in the armor at 40. He should probably retire now, because I think next year will be the big fall for him, if he returns.

Good point on Fisher.

I'll say this, when it comes to leading a team down the field when the pressure is its tightest, the lights the brightest, there's no one else I'd rather have back there than Tom Brady.  Dude has liquid nitrogen in his veins.

[Shake n Blake]

(02-06-2018, 04:02 PM)Wyche Wrote: Good point on Fisher.

I'll say this, when it comes to leading a team down the field when the pressure is its tightest, the lights the brightest, there's no one else I'd rather have back there than Tom Brady.  Dude has liquid nitrogen in his veins.

I still take Joe Montana in those situations over Brady, but I know how some feel about Joe on here. 

[wolfkaosaun]

(02-06-2018, 02:16 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I can't help but look at how Goff and Foles played for Fisher, then how they played since. Goff looked like a bust and Foles considered retirement before 30.

Now look at them. Some of these old school defense-minded coaches just can't get the best out of QB's.

Yep. There's been coaches that haven't exactly evolved with the game. Rex Ryan is another that comes to mind.

I did an article on the Bengals quarterbacks in primetime games compared to when they left. It's 3 years old so some numbers are obviously different, but it still holds some merit:
https://stripehype.com/2014/11/14/marvin-lewis-quarterbacks-primetime/

[Nicomo Cosca]

(02-06-2018, 01:29 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: If you put Andy in Philly this year he probably wins MVP, Superbowl, and Superbowl MVP. Eagles line and offensive weapons are a lot better than it is here. Foles doesn't even throw 20 TD passes here.

[Shake n Blake]

(02-06-2018, 07:04 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Yep. There's been coaches that haven't exactly evolved with the game. Rex Ryan is another that comes to mind.

I did an article on the Bengals quarterbacks in primetime games compared to when they left. It's 3 years old so some numbers are obviously different, but it still holds some merit:
https://stripehype.com/2014/11/14/marvin-lewis-quarterbacks-primetime/

I desperately wanted an offensive mind to take over for Mervy, but it looks like we're stuck with another year.

Sadly, I don't think we'll ever see Dalton with a different coach unless he leaves. 

(02-07-2018, 12:39 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote:

I don't see why it's all that funny. Doug Pederson and Frank Reich are guru's and former QB's who have gotten the best out of every QB they've touched.

They change their offense to suit their QB's strengths, and eliminate things that would highlight their weaknesses. When Hue did that in 2015, we saw the results.

[TKUHL]

I think we need to pump the brakes on Foles just a bit. But he did have one of the best seasons ever from a QB. Was that just an example of what this kid can do with the right coaching and talent around him. I don't know what caused his drop off after that season, but didn't he have Lazor as his OC that year.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(02-07-2018, 01:57 AM)TKUHL Wrote: I think we need to pump the brakes on Foles just a bit. But he did have one of the best seasons ever from a QB. Was that just an example of what this kid can do with the right coaching and talent around him. I don't know what caused his drop off after that season, but didn't he have Lazor as his OC that year.

I’m confused, what kid are you talking about? I wouldn’t classify Dalton or Foles as “a kid.” Foles is 29, and Dalton is 30.

[grampahol]

(02-07-2018, 02:01 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I’m confused, what kid are you talking about? I wouldn’t classify Dalton or Foles as “a kid.” Foles is 29, and Dalton is 30.

And yet it feels like Foles has been around longer for some reason or another..

[TKUHL]

(02-07-2018, 02:01 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I’m confused, what kid are you talking about? I wouldn’t classify Dalton or Foles as “a kid.” Foles is 29, and Dalton is 30.

When you get old everyone is a kid.

[Benton]

(02-06-2018, 02:16 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I can't help but look at how Goff and Foles played for Fisher, then how they played since. Goff looked like a bust and Foles considered retirement before 30.

Now look at them. Some of these old school defense-minded coaches just can't get the best out of QB's.

I live between St Louis and Nashville. I was still covering area sports during the Fisher-Young years. Good grief, I don't think he could've handled that situation any worse. And it was the first thing that came to mind with Marvin's recent handling of our WR selections.

Fisher wanted an old school, game managing QB who could throw medium passes, hand the ball off to a back and get teams to bite on play action. No scrambling, no big bombs, no extending the play. Hand it off or make a safe throw. 

I think Marvin does the same but with receivers. Or maybe it's just the way we've coached them the entire time he's been here that's led to many of them having similar problems.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-06-2018, 06:22 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I still take Joe Montana in those situations over Brady, but I know how some feel about Joe on here. 

Blasphemy

[Shake n Blake]

(02-07-2018, 01:57 AM)TKUHL Wrote: I think we need to pump the brakes on Foles just a bit. But he did have one of the best seasons ever from a QB. Was that just an example of what this kid can do with the right coaching and talent around him. I don't know what caused his drop off after that season, but didn't he have Lazor as his OC that year.

No. Lazor was only OC in Miami and Cincy. He was Foles' QB coach when he had that big season, then Lazor moved on to Miami the following year...getting hired as OC primarily due to the success of Foles (Miami was trying to develop Ryan Tannehill).

(02-07-2018, 02:01 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I’m confused, what kid are you talking about? I wouldn’t classify Dalton or Foles as “a kid.” Foles is 29, and Dalton is 30.

Foles was 24 when he had the season TKUHL is referring to.

(02-07-2018, 03:33 AM)Benton Wrote: I live between St Louis and Nashville. I was still covering area sports during the Fisher-Young years. Good grief, I don't think he could've handled that situation any worse. And it was the first thing that came to mind with Marvin's recent handling of our WR selections.

Fisher wanted an old school, game managing QB who could throw medium passes, hand the ball off to a back and get teams to bite on play action. No scrambling, no big bombs, no extending the play. Hand it off or make a safe throw. 

I think Marvin does the same but with receivers. Or maybe it's just the way we've coached them the entire time he's been here that's led to many of them having similar problems.

(02-07-2018, 11:58 AM)Wyche Wrote: Blasphemy

I was a baby in 1981 and 7 years old in 1988, so it doesn't sting much for me. The only things I remember about SB XXIII are my Dad saying Krumrie broke his leg, the SB sweatshirt my Mom got me, and "welcome to the jungle" being played literally everywhere (even the grocery store). I felt the excitement, but didn't care much for football at the time. Ninja Turtles and Mario Bros were more my things.

Seriously though, I remember just enough of that SB excitement to wish it'd happen again. Everyone loved the Bengals that year. 

As for Joe, when I first got into football, I loved watching him play for KC. His duel with Elway on MNF is still the most entertaining game I've seen.

[sandwedge]

(02-07-2018, 12:29 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: No. Lazor was only OC in Miami and Cincy. He was Foles' QB coach when he had that big season, then Lazor moved on to Miami the following year...getting hired as OC primarily due to the success of Foles (Miami was trying to develop Ryan Tannehill).


Foles was 24 when he had the season TKUHL is referring to.



I was a baby in 1981 and 7 years old in 1988, so it doesn't sting much for me. The only things I remember about SB XXIII are my Dad saying Krumrie broke his leg, the SB sweatshirt my Mom got me, and "welcome to the jungle" being played literally everywhere (even the grocery store). I felt the excitement, but didn't care much for football at the time. Ninja Turtles and Mario Bros were more my things.

Seriously though, I remember just enough of that SB excitement to wish it'd happen again. Everyone loved the Bengals that year. 

As for Joe, when I first got into football, I loved watching him play for KC. His duel with Elway on MNF is still the most entertaining game I've seen.

In 1981 I was 14 at the time of the SB, I cried my eyes out....