John Ross

[SunsetBengal]

(02-25-2018, 04:18 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Again this is on Marvin. Why wont he play the rookies? He's such a douchebag. He's too old school when trying to make a kid feel like he has to get some seniority before playing. A lot of the kids coming into the NFL do make instant contributions if coached correctly. He is a plague.

Typically, Marvin has no trouble getting offensive players involved early on.  Andy, AJ Green, pretty much any running back has been able to get good touches by mid-season, Whitworth, Boling, Bodine, Zeitler, Eifert, Gresham, and I'm sure that I'm missing someone. They all either started, or made serious, meaningful contribution their rookie years. (and it really pains me to make an argument defending Marvin, AND having to include Bodine in it)

I think that the notion of Marvin not allowing rookies to play early on, is more applicable to defensive players.

[HarleyDog]

(02-25-2018, 04:31 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Typically, Marvin has no trouble getting offensive players involved early on.  Andy, AJ Green, pretty much any running back has been able to get good touches by mid-season, Whitworth, Boling, Bodine, Zeitler, Eifert, Gresham, and I'm sure that I'm missing someone.

I think that the notion of Marvin not allowing rookies to play early on, is more applicable to defensive players.

AD and AJ was after Palmer and the absence of C.J. and T.O. (T.O. Sucked IMO but he had hands). He was forced to go that route, he had no choice. So basically narrows it down to the line and TE's. As far as TE's are concerned, I feel Marvin was looking to get that extra receiver involved like many teams were doing years before. He's a slow learner. Gresham didn't work out so well and neither did Eifert with the injuries (not Marvins fault). When you look at whats left after removing Zeitler and Whitworth? Good lord, going to the well again... Bad coaching!

[grampahol]

I can believe a young man might want to keep an injury to himself especially his first year . The kid wants to play football with the big dogs and that's understandable. I have no reason to doubt that. I did the same thing as a kid and tried to play baseball with a sore ankle until I couldn't. Add to the mix that he gets paid an ungodly amount of money for a kid and there's always been the thing about players able to play through all kinds of pain and discomfort. 
If someone tossed you a few cool million bucks to play a game would you want to sit on the shelf and watch everyone else play? Probably not . 

[*Go Cards*]

Did not like the pick per having bigger needs at time.

But not really down on him as of yet. Just wanted a OL.

Marvin did not give him a legit chance.

[lone bengal]

I'll admit I was upset with Ross not contributing this year and just the lack of impact in general the Bengals early draft picks have had over the last few years. Their weren't a ton of options at 9 that were slam dunk picks if you look back at our needs and who was drafted after Ross and how good they were in their rookie years. You could make a case for Malik Hooker who played good in Indy before his injury because the Bengals needed a play making safety. Marshon Lattimore was a stud for the Saints but we already had 3 young first round corners on the roster. We needed a TE but O.J. Howard didn't do much his rookie year. We needed a linebacker but Reuben Foster has been arrested twice already and failed a drug test at the combine and got sent home , that was a red flag for me and that's why I didn't want to draft him. Imagine Foster and Burfict together, they both would be suspended during the season and we would have to constantly worry about them being in trouble. We needed a pass rusher but we got great value in getting Lawson in the 4th and addressing the need. Are biggest need was at O-line and it was a poor draft for O-line men. Ryan Ramczyk got drafted 32 and Cam Robinson got drafted it the 2nd round I think they both started and played ok not 100 % sure didn't watch their games. So technically the Bengals could have drafted them but would it be too high at 9 ? and it takes two teams to trade, down for the Bengals in this case. I have also attached a link of the first round picks for the 2017 draft

https://www.sbnation.com/a/nfl-draft-2017-live-picks-results

[*SHRacerX*]

(02-25-2018, 04:15 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I get that every situation is unique, but I still think that taking Ross was a gamble.  When you step back, and look at the entire pool of early picks from the past 5 years, you notice a trend of them not producing in year 1.  I think the general opinion is that your 1st round pick should be able to give significant production in his 1st year.

That is completely accurate, but even with hindsight...who should they have selected?  Our offense still had the same issues, if not worse.  They needed a weapon that could take advantages of matchups provided by AJ, and they got Mixon and Ross.  I love the young pass rushers they got.  They drafted great athletes with the later picks, hoping they could convert some of that athleticism to the field.  

Maybe they just had too much faith in Paul Alexander.  He finally had the whole offseason with guys healthy and they were a disaster.  Maybe they should have traded up to get a tackle in the draft, but they were still trying to see if they could get anything out of their earlier first (Ced) and second (Fish).  

In the end, it seems as though they really just whiffed with those selections.  My guess is that the Bengals might try Boling at LT, Westerman at LG (since they seem against providing any challenger to Bodine), and Redmond at RG with Fish and a draft pick battling it out at RT.  They will likely give Ogbuehi every shot at LT again, and then turn to Boling when it isn't working (again) but hopefully they don't wait until their season is over.  I hate to say it, but maybe the kid deserves the shot with whatever blocking scheme the new oline coach and OC are instituting.  

I hate to pin so much on Ross, but the Bengals offense will go as he goes in 2018.  They aren't suddenly going to get Lafell to be a faster weapon, and I doubt they resign Eifert.  No offensive draft pick will come in and light up our team since most of our rookies get eased in to the game.  I would imagine you will see a third RB (Is Tra Carson still on PS?) and a lot or RPO.  It is a copycat league.  Hopefully, Ross does what I think he can....not to vindicate the pick, but to get the offense back to respectability. 

[SunsetBengal]

(02-26-2018, 09:44 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: That is completely accurate, but even with hindsight...who should they have selected?  Our offense still had the same issues, if not worse.  They needed a weapon that could take advantages of matchups provided by AJ, and they got Mixon and Ross.  I love the young pass rushers they got.  They drafted great athletes with the later picks, hoping they could convert some of that athleticism to the field.  

Maybe they just had too much faith in Paul Alexander.  He finally had the whole offseason with guys healthy and they were a disaster.  Maybe they should have traded up to get a tackle in the draft, but they were still trying to see if they could get anything out of their earlier first (Ced) and second (Fish).  

In the end, it seems as though they really just whiffed with those selections.  My guess is that the Bengals might try Boling at LT, Westerman at LG (since they seem against providing any challenger to Bodine), and Redmond at RG with Fish and a draft pick battling it out at RT.  They will likely give Ogbuehi every shot at LT again, and then turn to Boling when it isn't working (again) but hopefully they don't wait until their season is over.  I hate to say it, but maybe the kid deserves the shot with whatever blocking scheme the new oline coach and OC are instituting.  

I hate to pin so much on Ross, but the Bengals offense will go as he goes in 2018.  They aren't suddenly going to get Lafell to be a faster weapon, and I doubt they resign Eifert.  No offensive draft pick will come in and light up our team since most of our rookies get eased in to the game.  I would imagine you will see a third RB (Is Tra Carson still on PS?) and a lot or RPO.  It is a copycat league.  Hopefully, Ross does what I think he can....not to vindicate the pick, but to get the offense back to respectability. 

After being mostly quiet for nearly two seasons, that TD by Tyler Boyd at the end of the season gives me some hope.  That was the type of play that he was drafted in the 2nd round for.  I'm actually hoping that he is the one who steps up and unseats Lafell as the WR2.

I'm not ready to sleep on Josh Malone yet, either.  Now, I realize that 6 receptions on 17 targets with a TD and a long of 25 yds. isn't exactly "lighting it up", but I think he can light it up if given the opportunity.  They just need to get him more involved.

The continued development of those two players should provide enough cover for Ross to get healthy and get confidence from the coaching staff.  Guess we'll just have to wait and see how it plays out.

[*ochocincos*]

(02-25-2018, 03:58 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: To bolded:  Rightfully so, don't you think?  With all of the needs that the Bengals had, they chose to select a small, frail built guy with a history of injuries?  A player like John Ross should have been a luxury addition to an already well stocked team.

Let's face it, the Bengals haven't been picking very well in recent years.  Dre K, slow to develop.  Dennard, injuries have slowed development.  WJ3, lost a season to injury.  Oguehi and Fisher, freakin' train wreck.  Tyler Boyd, very slow to develop.  Tyler Eifert, fantastic player that can't stay on the field.  Now, add John Ross to the lengthy list of early selections that did nothing in their 1st season.  

Is it any wonder that fans might be quick to write off John Ross?  Our scouting department appears to be doing a terrible job, the past 5 years, and our management doesn't believe in utilizing free agency much.

What is a "player like John Ross"? Do you mean a player with injury history? Or a good WR?
Because I think we can all agree the Bengals needed a good WR to go along with AJ and Eifert. Based on Ross's tape and speed, he had Pro Bowl potential. The selection made sense. Especially given Williams and Davis were already off the board by #9.

In hindsight though, based on their rookie seasons, the better first three rounds would have been Barnett, Smith-Schuster (although I would have disliked him if he acted the same way he acts now as a Steeler), and Hunt rather than Ross, Mixon, and Willis.

And I don't fully agree that all those players you list were slow to develop. I think Alexander fell in love with Ogbuehi's measurables and ignored other traits, which was a bad move. Fisher maybe the same, but I feel like we have to give him another chance now that he's cleared to return from his heart issue. Boyd looked good as a rookie and I think his reduced role had more to do with his approach/attitude in Year 2 rather than his ability. Kirkpatrick had Jones, Hall, and Newman ahead of him, which didn't allow for much of a chance to see the field.

You and I both know the Bengals never rely on the draft to get immediate starters as rookies anyway, and I think that's what this really boils down to. They look to get those young guys reps over time and hopefully become a quality contributor at minimum by Year 3. Unfortunately, it results in losing cheap years on rookie contracts, but I still liked the picks they made.

The fans see gaps and want them filled with rookies that can hit the ground running from Day 1 and be solid at minimum. Instead, we see the Bengals trot out mediocre vets and play them over young players and we see poor results. It leaves us wondering two things...either 1) the Bengals are being stubborn not letting the young guys play, or 2) the young guys aren't as good as we thought they were.

Personally, I think it's a mix of both because Mike, Marvin, and the rest of the org has a level of trust that must be met before a player sees the field. Until a player builds that trust, we'll see them sit the bench.

[Sled21]

(02-25-2018, 04:18 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Again this is on Marvin. Why wont he play the rookies? He's such a douchebag. He's too old school when trying to make a kid feel like he has to get some seniority before playing. A lot of the kids coming into the NFL do make instant contributions if coached correctly. He is a plague.

It did not appear to me that Ross learned the playbook. I'm down on Ross for the hidden injury and running the wrong routes, but not so much about the fumble. That happens. But being down on him does not mean I have given up on him. Hopefully, now he realizes his "elite" speed is not going to get him through because it's not elite in this league. He can run a 4.2, but corners in this league run 4.4's and can jam him off the line. His advantage is gone, he has to work for it now. I believe he can be successful, but he is going to have to step up. From his most recent interview, I think he now realizes what it is going to take.

[SunsetBengal]

(02-26-2018, 10:47 AM)ochocincos Wrote: What is a "player like John Ross"? Do you mean a player with injury history? Or a good WR?
Because I think we can all agree the Bengals needed a good WR to go along with AJ and Eifert. Based on Ross's tape and speed, he had Pro Bowl potential. The selection made sense. Especially given Williams and Davis were already off the board by #9.

In hindsight though, based on their rookie seasons, the better first three rounds would have been Barnett, Smith-Schuster (although I would have disliked him if he acted the same way he acts now as a Steeler), and Hunt rather than Ross, Mixon, and Willis.

And I don't fully agree that all those players you list were slow to develop. I think Alexander fell in love with Ogbuehi's measurables and ignored other traits, which was a bad move. Fisher maybe the same, but I feel like we have to give him another chance now that he's cleared to return from his heart issue. Boyd looked good as a rookie and I think his reduced role had more to do with his approach/attitude in Year 2 rather than his ability. Kirkpatrick had Jones, Hall, and Newman ahead of him, which didn't allow for much of a chance to see the field.

You and I both know the Bengals never rely on the draft to get immediate starters as rookies anyway, and I think that's what this really boils down to. They look to get those young guys reps over time and hopefully become a quality contributor at minimum by Year 3. Unfortunately, it results in losing cheap years on rookie contracts, but I still liked the picks they made.

The fans see gaps and want them filled with rookies that can hit the ground running from Day 1 and be solid at minimum. Instead, we see the Bengals trot out mediocre vets and play them over young players and we see poor results. It leaves us wondering two things...either 1) the Bengals are being stubborn not letting the young guys play, or 2) the young guys aren't as good as we thought they were.

Personally, I think it's a mix of both because Mike, Marvin, and the rest of the org has a level of trust that must be met before a player sees the field. Until a player builds that trust, we'll see them sit the bench.

By a player like John Ross, I mean a risk/reward type.  A guy with a super high ceiling, but a moderate to severe risk, due to injury history.

Why I was not elated about the selection of Ross?  Not because it was John Ross, specifically.  The idea of having a viable threat with "lightning strike" ability to pair with AJ Green is a very exciting thing to imagine.  However, this offense had serious fundamental issues on the OL.  A team that can't establish the run with any sort of authority is going to have troubles when they are forced to go to the air, almost exclusively.  (even with a veteran QB that has one of the quickest releases in the league)

So, you might say that I'm more disappointed that the Bengals took a gamble on a splash player, while completely ignoring fundamental needs.  When you add in the notion that Ross may have hidden information about the non-surgery shoulder, it really exacerbates the situation.  

Also sure, we can look at each of the players that I listed and examine and rationalize the various reasons for their lack of early production/contribution.  However, if you step back and look at the pool of players, you notice one commonality among them.   

[*ochocincos*]

(02-26-2018, 11:34 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: By a player like John Ross, I mean a risk/reward type.  A guy with a super high ceiling, but a moderate to severe risk, due to injury history.

Why I was not elated about the selection of Ross?  Not because it was John Ross, specifically.  The idea of having a viable threat with "lightning strike" ability to pair with AJ Green is a very exciting thing to imagine.  However, this offense had serious fundamental issues on the OL.  A team that can't establish the run with any sort of authority is going to have troubles when they are forced to go to the air, almost exclusively.  (even with a veteran QB that has one of the quickest releases in the league)

So, you might say that I'm more disappointed that the Bengals took a gamble on a splash player, while completely ignoring fundamental needs.  When you add in the notion that Ross may have hidden information about the non-surgery shoulder, it really exacerbates the situation.  

Also sure, we can look at each of the players that I listed and examine and rationalize the various reasons for their lack of early production/contribution.  However, if you step back and look at the pool of players, you notice one commonality among them.   

Gotcha. Yea, that goes essentially with what I was saying about organization view being different from the fans.
Mike Brown has even stated as much back in January that he feels the Bengals have the players to make a Super Bowl run. Many fans disagree with that.

[PDub80]

(02-26-2018, 11:39 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Gotcha. Yea, that goes essentially with what I was saying about organization view being different from the fans.
Mike Brown has even stated as much back in January that he feels the Bengals have the players to make a Super Bowl run. Many fans disagree with that.

I think they definitely have the players with the exception of 1 in particular.

I absolutely do not think they have the right head coach. Both of the aforementioned guys shall go unnamed so as to not derail the thread.

The Bengals are NOT a John Ross (or any singular draft pick) away from being a Superbowl contender. Their problems go far beyond that.

[*ochocincos*]

(02-26-2018, 11:55 AM)PDub80 Wrote: I think they definitely have the players with the exception of 1 in particular.

I absolutely do not think they have the right head coach. Both of the aforementioned guys shall go unnamed so as to not derail the thread.

The Bengals are NOT a John Ross (or any singular draft pick) away from being a Superbowl contender. Their problems go far beyond that.

I think they are 3-5 players away.
They need much improvement from LT, C, and a LB other than Burfict for sure.
Maybe NT if Billings or Glasgow doesn't make any improvement by the start of the season.
Maybe another pass catcher too if one of Ross, Boyd, Malone, Core, or a TE doesn't step up as a 700+ yard receiver.

[coachmcneil71]

(02-25-2018, 04:15 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I get that every situation is unique, but I still think that taking Ross was a gamble.  When you step back, and look at the entire pool of early picks from the past 5 years, you notice a trend of them not producing in year 1.  I think the general opinion is that your 1st round pick should be able to give significant production in his 1st year.

This, and he wasn't worth a first round selection. He's here now. Hopefully, he will contribute this season?

[reuben.ahmed]

(02-25-2018, 04:48 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: AD and AJ was after Palmer and the absence of C.J. and T.O. (T.O. Sucked IMO but he had hands). He was forced to go that route, he had no choice. So basically narrows it down to the line and TE's. As far as TE's are concerned, I feel Marvin was looking to get that extra receiver involved like many teams were doing years before. He's a slow learner. Gresham didn't work out so well and neither did Eifert with the injuries (not Marvins fault). When you look at whats left after removing Zeitler and Whitworth? Good lord, going to the well again... Bad coaching!

Exactly, he was forced. Marvin doesn't play rookies, he doesn't play the right players at the right time, he takes too long to make decisions of any sort. Oh we can't cut Nugent, he's a home town hero! (Progresses to lose us at least 3 games).

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-25-2018, 02:55 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: I read an article on him on the official site.  He seems like a decent kid from the few quotes i read. With that said I went back and watched some tape of his in college.  Even though I wasn't stoked about the pick I could definitely see his talent and skillset translating well to the NFL.  

I know how everyone is down on him and perhaps rightly so but if he stays healthy, I think he will contribute this season.  His top end speed to go along with good route running and ability to stick his foot in the ground and switch directions is remarkable. He literally just runs past people and leaves them in the dust in college yet he's not just a speed burner like Ted Ginn.  I still don't think he's worthy of a top 10 pick because of his lack of size and injury concern but I expect him to be a solid #2 WR in this NFL in the mode of a DeSean Jackson.

I really hope the guy has his head on straight and can stay healthy because if he does, he'll be just fine.

Completely agree and i like how in the article it stated something to the effect of he is not a track guy. He is a football player
that just tried to get faster and really did. With a whole Offseason working on that shoulder and working with Dalton he could
really make a lot of people on here eat some major good tasting crow that already have him labeled as a bust.

Dude is a class act, a hard worker and has mad skills. Watch out Ross haters.

[sandwedge]

(02-26-2018, 04:43 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Completely agree and i like how in the article it stated something to the effect of he is not a track guy. He is a football player
that just tried to get faster and really did. With a whole Offseason working on that shoulder and working with Dalton he could
really make a lot of people on here eat some major good tasting crow that already have him labeled as a bust.

Dude is a class act, a hard worker and has mad skills. Watch out Ross haters.

[fredtoast]

(02-26-2018, 01:41 PM)reuben.ahmed Wrote: Exactly, he was forced. Marvin doesn't play rookies,

False.  Marvin plays rookies as much as the average NFL head coach. (numbers from before '17 season)

According to profootballreference over the last ten years there have been 227 different rookies who started at least 14 games. Since there are 32 teams that is an average of 7.1 per team. Over the last ten years the Bengals have 7 different rookies who have started at least 14 games.


When we expand it beyond just rookie seasons it does not change very much. Looking at the first three seasons of every player's career over the last 10 years there were 785 who had at least one season with at least 14 starts in his first three years. That is an average of 24.5 per team, and the Bengals have had 24.

[*SHRacerX*]

(02-26-2018, 10:03 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: After being mostly quiet for nearly two seasons, that TD by Tyler Boyd at the end of the season gives me some hope.  That was the type of play that he was drafted in the 2nd round for.  I'm actually hoping that he is the one who steps up and unseats Lafell as the WR2.

I'm not ready to sleep on Josh Malone yet, either.  Now, I realize that 6 receptions on 17 targets with a TD and a long of 25 yds. isn't exactly "lighting it up", but I think he can light it up if given the opportunity.  They just need to get him more involved.

The continued development of those two players should provide enough cover for Ross to get healthy and get confidence from the coaching staff.  Guess we'll just have to wait and see how it plays out.

I like Boyd a lot, but for whatever reason, he was in the coaches doghouse, too.  He flashes ability from time to time.  Just like they say about AJ, he needs to get involved early to feel like a part of the game plan.  This gets back to my original point about trading AJ and Andy:  I think the offense is too predicated on AJ Green and he simply isn't quick enough in short space to get open immediately.  He is an unbelievable receiver in the air and moves so smoothly at speed, but he is more of a long strider.  I just think our AJ first strategy (along with paying him what he earns) hampers this offense and doesn't spread the ball around.  

I also really like Core and Malone, but those guys need opportunities as well.  

If Ross, Boyd, etc., get involved early in a game and they are hurting teams for doubling Green, that is where he could start to make them pay.  I just wonder if that will happen, or will Andy always look to AJ first and the other guys just jog their routes. 

[Sled21]

(02-26-2018, 08:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: False.  Marvin plays rookies as much as the average NFL head coach. (numbers from before '17 season)

According to profootballreference over the last ten years there have been 227 different rookies who started at least 14 games. Since there are 32 teams that is an average of 7.1 per team. Over the last ten years the Bengals have 7 different rookies who have started at least 14 games.


When we expand it beyond just rookie seasons it does not change very much. Looking at the first three seasons of every player's career over the last 10 years there were 785 who had at least one season with at least 14 starts in his first three years. That is an average of 24.5 per team, and the Bengals have had 24.

"Marvin doesn't play rookies" is one of the lines that caught hold here, and won't die, even when there is no merit to it. When Marvin does not play a rookie, it is because there is a veteran who is better already in that spot. And only here is that considered a bad thing. Everywhere else, having to play rookies is a bad thing.