John Ross

[Joelist]

You need to remember where the meme got started - it was when John Thornton had to go and flat out tell Marvin to sit him and play Pat Sims. It has since gotten overused but there have been continuing cases where it seems Marvin has a favorite player who plays and stinks and then when the reserve has to come in they look way better. It isn't always veteran over rookie though.

[Sled21]

(02-27-2018, 03:26 PM)Joelist Wrote: You need to remember where the meme got started - it was when John Thornton had to go and flat out tell Marvin to sit him and play Pat Sims. It has since gotten overused but there have been continuing cases where it seems Marvin has a favorite player who plays and stinks and then when the reserve has to come in they look way better. It isn't always veteran over rookie though.

And in most cases, when the reserve comes in a looks better than the vet, it is because they sat and watched the vet and learned. Few are ready to shine in this league in their first years. Having the luxury of solid starters playing in front of them is a good thing. WJ3 is just the latest example. People complain because Pac played in front of him, but the reason Pac was starting was because Jackson struggled with zone concepts, and got burned on several occasions. He had time to learn (he was always a beast in man converage) and now is a better player because of it.

[Joelist]

The other notorious episode was in 2016 when they actually benched Bodine briefly. TJ Johnson came in and actually looked okay at Center. Then they put Bodine right back in and the follies recommenced.

[fredtoast]

(02-27-2018, 03:26 PM)Joelist Wrote: You need to remember where the meme got started - it was when John Thornton had to go and flat out tell Marvin to sit him and play Pat Sims.

That is not exactly what happened.  Thornton was just mainly playing DT on first and second downs, then about the middle of the season when we were 0-8 someone got injure and he started playing more on third downs.  So he told Lewis it was fine if they played Sims on first and second down since he was playing third downs.

It was never Thornton going to Marvin and saying "Sims is better than me.  Bench me and play him."  It was more like "Since this season is trash I don't mind if you want to play the rookie to see what you have."

[fredtoast]

(02-27-2018, 06:22 PM)Joelist Wrote: The other notorious episode was in 2016 when they actually benched Bodine briefly. TJ Johnson came in and actually looked okay at Center. Then they put Bodine right back in and the follies recommenced.

Johnson never played more than one or two drives at center and he did nothing to distinguish himself.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-27-2018, 07:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Johnson never played more than one or two drives at center and he did nothing to distinguish himself.

Wondering what distinguishes oneself in your mind Fred.

In those one or two drives TJ Johnson looked better than Russell Bodine at Center.

I would say that was distinguishing himself.

Or just showing how terrible Bodine is and even worse the coaches were for always starting Bodine without
letting competition be a thing. A player should never just be handed a job cause a coach likes him better, it
should be about the play on the field, in games.

Favoritism should never happen if you take your NFL coaching job seriously.

[*Go Cards*]

(02-27-2018, 10:51 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Wondering what distinguishes oneself in your mind Fred.

In those one or two drives TJ Johnson looked better than Russell Bodine at Center.

I would say that was distinguishing himself.

Or just showing how terrible Bodine is and even worse the coaches were for always starting Bodine without
letting competition be a thing. A player should never just be handed a job cause a coach likes him better, it
should be about the play on the field, in games.

Favoritism should never happen if you take your NFL coaching job seriously.

Yep thought it at least warranted another look and Bodine has not done much to distinguish himself either. 

Wait a minute I stand corrected, he certainly has distinguished himself.  

Just not in a very good way.    

[*Go Cards*]

What other teams offer Bodine in FA will be a good measuring stick.

[Socal Bengals fan]

he's to thin in my book. I know he's similar to Jackson n Brown but he's seems even thinner than those two. id much go for a guy like Christian Kirk of Texas A.M than Ross. Kirk has same build as Steve Smith n just as fiery.. not impressed from what I saw from Ross . hopefully he changes my mind

[HarleyDog]

(02-27-2018, 10:51 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Favoritism should never happen if you take your NFL coaching job seriously.

Well it’s Marvin and considering his shortcomings in the past and his failure to learn and adjust, one could say he doesn’t take it as seriously as we wished he would?

[*SHRacerX*]

(02-26-2018, 08:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: False.  Marvin plays rookies as much as the average NFL head coach. (numbers from before '17 season)

According to profootballreference over the last ten years there have been 227 different rookies who started at least 14 games. Since there are 32 teams that is an average of 7.1 per team. Over the last ten years the Bengals have 7 different rookies who have started at least 14 games.


When we expand it beyond just rookie seasons it does not change very much. Looking at the first three seasons of every player's career over the last 10 years there were 785 who had at least one season with at least 14 starts in his first three years. That is an average of 24.5 per team, and the Bengals have had 24.

I will add clarification to Reuben's statement (although he doesn't need me to speak for him, I feel compelled).  

The stats you refer to encompass all rookies over an incredibly long period of time where, of course, the numbers are going to average out due to injury and the fact the Bengals were not as deep in talent as some teams.  

Where seemingly everyone has a problem, except you, is when Marvin rolls out a "veteran" that absolutely sucks rhinoceros balls (I would imagine they are large, so you would really have to suck) over a rookie that, ultimately, when given a chance, makes Marvin look like an idiot.  

Playing Adam Jones early over WJIII.  Playing MJ over Lawson.  Playing Bodine over giving Westerman a shot at Center (or at least having some kind of plan to push the guy....we don't give WRs automatic playing time, but the worst center in the league?  No problem).  Playing Hopkins over Redmond.  

I honestly believe Burfict would have toiled in obscurity on the bench had Thomas Howard (I think it was him) not been injured. 

Our WR corps last year sucked almost as much as the offensive line.  Yet, here comes Lafell, game after game....Captain Average that doesn't make a play despite single coverage never guarded by the other team's #1 CB.  Ross, Core, Malone all sit and watch....

I think that is the overall point that is being made.  It isn't an absolute that Marv doesn't play rookies.  It drives us crazy when he plays turds over rookies that need a shot.  

[fredtoast]

(02-28-2018, 10:35 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Playing Adam Jones early over WJIII.  Playing MJ over Lawson.  Playing Bodine over giving Westerman a shot at Center (or at least having some kind of plan to push the guy....we don't give WRs automatic playing time, but the worst center in the league?  No problem).  Playing Hopkins over Redmond.  

I have already addressed these points.

Jackson played more snaps than Pacman in almost every game they played together.

MJ is a DE and Lawson is a LB so I have no clue where you are going with that.

The book is still out on Westerman and Redmond.  They had two games with a new scheme that no team had any film on.  I am afraid a lot of you will be in for a big surprise if they roll those two out as starters for a full season when other teams are prepared for the new scheme.  Remember when the wildcat was an unstoppable new offense that was going to transform the league?

Now would you like for me to list all of the back ups that fans here swore were better than our starters but never amounted to anything here or with other teams?  It happens every year.  fans claim one of our back ups is a star being held back by stupid Marvin, but when they finally move on from the Bengals they are nothing but back ups with other NFL teams or else out of the league altogether.

[fredtoast]

(02-27-2018, 10:51 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Wondering what distinguishes oneself in your mind Fred.

In those one or two drives TJ Johnson looked better than Russell Bodine at Center.

I would say that was distinguishing himself.

I don't remember that being the case.  I think it was more a case of some Bengal fans seeing what they wanted to see.  Just like so many Bengal fans claimed Peko was garbage for years.  Or the ones today who claim Kirkpatrick is garbage.

We also do not know how limited the Bengal offense was with Johnson at center. 

[804 fan]

(02-25-2018, 11:11 AM)SadFaceBengal15 Wrote: Yes.

And my god was he not worthy of where he was selected.  He just needs to stay healthy and hold on to the damn ball.  I personally think he doesn’t hold up.  Too small.  Can’t take an nfl hit.  Hope I’m wrong but everything that made me sick to my stomache about this pick cane true during the season.  Doesn’t have a tough mans mantality, too small for the league injury prone and it was on display whenever he was on the field.  Again hope I’m wrong but he needs to buck up or gtf on.  I don’t care how good of a kid he is at this point

Don't understand all the too small talk when he weighs more or equal  than Emanuel Sanders ,T.Y Hilton and Antonio Brown to same a few receivers, not to mention two of our corners in Dre K and W J III. 

[fredtoast]

(02-28-2018, 10:35 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Ross, Core, Malone all sit and watch....

Why stop there.  Why not bring back Cobi Hamilton, Ryan Whalen, Mario Alford, and Armon Binns.  None of those guys got a fair shot either.  And clearly they have to be better than a WR who has started for two different teams and has over 5000 career receiving yards, right?

[Socal Bengals fan]

(02-28-2018, 11:58 AM)804 fan Wrote: Don't understand all the too small talk when he weighs more or equal  than Emanuel Sanders ,T.Y Hilton and Antonio Brown to same a few receivers, not to mention two of our corners in Dre 

apparently it's an issue because he's been hurt every year since highschool.  

[fredtoast]

(02-28-2018, 01:19 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: apparently it's an issue because he's been hurt every year since highschool.  

He didn't miss a single game in 3 of his 4 college seasons.

[*SHRacerX*]

(02-28-2018, 11:44 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I have already addressed these points.

Jackson played more snaps than Pacman in almost every game they played together.

MJ is a DE and Lawson is a LB so I have no clue where you are going with that.

The book is still out on Westerman and Redmond.  They had two games with a new scheme that no team had any film on.  I am afraid a lot of you will be in for a big surprise if they roll those two out as starters for a full season when other teams are prepared for the new scheme.  Remember when the wildcat was an unstoppable new offense that was going to transform the league?

Now would you like for me to list all of the back ups that fans here swore were better than our starters but never amounted to anything here or with other teams?  It happens every year.  fans claim one of our back ups is a star being held back by stupid Marvin, but when they finally move on from the Bengals they are nothing but back ups with other NFL teams or else out of the league altogether.

Just like a little show poodle.  Sees the bait and jumps through the hoops.  

You have already addressed these points to your satisfaction, not mine, or for that matter...not many others seem to agree with you on this.  The OVERALL point was turds played, while young guys sat.  That does two things:  the turd isn't pushed.  Competition improves the breed.  In Fred-like tone:  Do I need to post reference to all the turds that didn't suddenly develop from this philosophy?  The second is that the young guy doesn't get a shot.  Oh, sure, Ross got a handoff and two targets.  That should have been enough for the #9 overall pick.    

In games Pacman and WJIII played together?  Let me guess....you took a year-long average of snaps when both were activated and WJIII came out ahead.  The point I made was early on, with Jones struggling, he STILL played Jones over WJIII, until the season was all but over.

MJ and Lawson both line up at RDE in passing downs, one is a freak, one is a tree that moves like one...not sure what you are trying to do here.  

Now Redmond and Westerman are the next Wildcat?  This point is just stupid beyond comprehension.  Our offensive line sucked ass all year, these two finally get a shot and Gio breaks 100 yards and Mixon has his biggest day as a pro.  Against two teams that NEEDED THE WIN TO MAKE THE PLAYOFFS.  

To be clear, I never claimed a backup was a star and your exaggerations are tiring.  My point (again) was turds to have competition and younger talent should be afforded the opportunity before a season is over.  There are countless times where Marv has sat on younger guys and played turds over and over again with no change in outcome.  After 15 years and no playoff wins, you would think it was time for a change of habits, but NOPE, Marv stays the course.   

[*SHRacerX*]

(02-28-2018, 12:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Why stop there.  Why not bring back Cobi Hamilton, Ryan Whalen, Mario Alford, and Armon Binns.  None of those guys got a fair shot either.  And clearly they have to be better than a WR who has started for two different teams and has over 5000 career receiving yards, right?

So they don't get a shot here and every other team will be lining up to give them a shot?  Why did you leave Burkhead out of this list?  There also becomes a money factor.  If a guy rots on our bench for four years, a team has to pay him a veteran deal if they want him.  Younger players always cheaper.  The Pats paid Burkhead very well. 

[fredtoast]

(02-28-2018, 01:44 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Why did you leave Burkhead out of this list?    The Pats paid Burkhead very well. 

Pats got burnt paying Rex $3.2 million for 500 yards from scrimmage.  Bet they don't make that mistake again this year.

(02-28-2018, 01:44 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: There also becomes a money factor.  If a guy rots on our bench for four years, a team has to pay him a veteran deal if they want him.  Younger players always cheaper.

Money had nothing to do with it.

Whalen was signed and released by two teams after the Bengals (Minn, SF)

Alford was signed and released by three teams after the Bengals (NYJ, Cle, Chi)

Hamilton was signed and released by three teams after the Bengals (Mia, Car, Pitt)

Binns was signed and released by two teams after the Bengals (Mia, KC)

The fact is that Bengal coaches see all of these players in hundreds of snaps in practice.  The coaches have a very good idea about who the better players are.  If Ross, Core, or malone was better than LaFell then i'd say the coaches would have played them.