Jim O - Expect Bengals to have about $15 mill for open FA market

[TheUberHuber]

(03-11-2018, 01:19 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I'm glad that you don't own the company that I work for.  Dunlap has provided years of great service and is (seemingly) always on the field.  Quality and reliability that he provides certainly merits a raise in pay.  

If you think that he would be willing to sign for the same or less, than you should likely think about drafting his replacement now. 

I am assuming here, correct me if I am wrong, but the company you work for is not competing for a super bowl.

I am not saying Dunlap is bad or doesn't deserve a raise but he is already getting 7.3 million. How much more do you think we will pay him? Even if he did get 10 million that's o only 2.7 more than now.

Atkins is the only one who's next contract could break the bank... but, he is already getting 10 million.... in 2018.

People act like we need 20 million in 2018 to resign these guys for 2019 which is just flat out false.

[TheUberHuber]

(03-11-2018, 01:42 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Dunlap will likely get paid by some team at a top 10 4-3 DE salary. That would be average $9+ mill a year. His salary cap hit for 2018 is $7.3 mill. He should get at least a $2 mill a year raise.

Atkins will likely get paid like a top 5 DT, which averages at least $14 mill a year. Atkins’s cap hit for 2018 is $9.5 mill. He should also get at least $5 mill a year bump.

And while I understand wanting to say the raises won’t come until 2019, the way the Bengals have been doing business the past few years is having the extensions consume some of the upcoming year’s cap to reduce the cap hit on subsequent years.

Agree with it or not, that’s how the FO chooses to handle extensions.


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Yes I agree that's what they do but the math still does not add up to us only having 15 million in cap space because of it

[SunsetBengal]

(03-11-2018, 01:43 PM)TheUberHuber Wrote: I am assuming here, correct me if I am wrong, but the company you work for is not competing for a super bowl.

I am not saying Dunlap is bad or doesn't deserve a raise but he is already getting 7.3 million. How much more do you think we will pay him? Even if he did get 10 million that's o only 2.7 more than now.

Atkins is the only one who's next contract could break the bank... but, he is already getting 10 million.... in 2018.

People act like we need 20 million in 2108 to resign these guys for 2019 which is just flat out false.

True, I don't work for a Pro Football team, but the business that I work for must compete with other firms to gain contracts.  I work in the Surveying dept. of an engineering firm.  By being reliable and getting work done under budget, they reward me with a raise in pay, and a little more PTO each year.

As for what Dunlap and Atkins deserve, I believe there are market values that help to determine that number.  They are both in the upper tier of performers at their positions, so they deserve money representative of that status.

[fredtoast]

(03-10-2018, 08:45 PM)jj22 Wrote: What's new. In the mean time teams that have 9m to spend according to websites, will somehow sign their rookies, have some left over for injury's and have the funds to pay draft picks, yet they'll clean up in free agency.

This just is not true.

Teams have to trade away or cut vakuable players in order to makem other moves.  There is not magic fairy dust that allows teams to sign all of their own players and sign free agents.

If you think there are good players out there in free agency where do they come from?  They come from teams who have to let good players go for salary reasons.

the Bengals are no where near the cheapest team when it comes to paying players.

[jfkbengals]

(03-11-2018, 01:45 PM)TheUberHuber Wrote: Yes I agree that's what they do but the math still does not add up to us only having 15 million in cap space because of it

But it does.

Look at the numbers presented by GRT on page 2:

Adjusted Salary Cap

$188,783,459

Subtract:


Active Contracts:
$152,106,135
Dead Cap:
$1,296,881
Draft Pool Cap:
$8,974,818
2017 Rollover:
$11,583,459

Remaining Cap Space= $14,822,166

[SunsetBengal]

(03-11-2018, 02:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This just is not true.

Teams have to trade away or cut vakuable players in order to makem other moves.  There is not magic fairy dust that allows teams to sign all of their own players and sign free agents.

If you think there are good players out there in free agency where do they come from?  They come from teams who have to let good players go for salary reasons.

the Bengals are no where near the cheapest team when it comes to paying players.

+1

[SunsetBengal]

(03-11-2018, 02:09 PM)jfkbengals Wrote: But it does.

Look at the numbers presented by GRT on page 2:

Adjusted Salary Cap

$188,783,459

Subtract:


Active Contracts:
$152,106,135
Dead Cap:
$1,296,881
Draft Pool Cap:
$8,974,818
2017 Rollover:
$11,583,459

Remaining Cap Space= $14,822,166

I think that some fans see that rollover number, and instantly think that money is for importing new talent, or that Mike Brown is using it for a lavish vacation or something.  When the truth of the matter is;  That money is really for keeping the good talent already here, on the team.

[BigPapaKain]

15 million dollars? That's a nice bonus ole Son of Paul is gonna give himself.

[jj22]

(03-11-2018, 02:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This just is not true.

Teams have to trade away or cut vakuable players in order to makem other moves.  There is not magic fairy dust that allows teams to sign all of their own players and sign free agents.

If you think there are good players out there in free agency where do they come from?  They come from teams who have to let good players go for salary reasons.

the Bengals are no where near the cheapest team when it comes to paying players.

Those teams just don't make it a priority to re-sign players like Bodine, Andre Smith, Adam Jones, and Eifert to take 10+m off the cap. That's the difference. Sure they make cuts. They don't feel the need to keep players like MJ and Lafell. I don't slam them for making those cap casualty cuts to bring in talent.

We'll see as we always do teams with far less cap space re-signing their players (even using the Franchise tag) and being active in free agency.

[jfkbengals]

(03-11-2018, 02:16 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I think that some fans see that rollover number, and instantly think that money is for importing new talent, or that Mike Brown is using it for a lavish vacation or something.  When the truth of the matter is;  That money is really for keeping the good talent already here, on the team.

You are 100% correct.

That is the money that is used to increase the value of current contracts.

Give Carlos a 3 year extension with a $2m raise and a $1m signing bonus.  Now give Geno a 3 year extension with a $4m raise and $2m signing bonus.

Now there is only $4m to utilize on extensions of current contracts or re-signing expiring contracts before having to dip into the FA pool for the money.

[jfkbengals]

(03-11-2018, 02:28 PM)jj22 Wrote: Those teams just don't make it a priority to re-sign players like Bodine, Andre Smith, Adam Jones, and Eifert to take 10+m off the cap. That's the difference. Sure they make cuts. They don't feel the need to keep players like MJ and Lafell. I don't slam them for making those cap casualty cuts to bring in talent.

We'll see as we always do teams with far less cap space re-signing their players (even using the Franchise tag) and being active in free agency.

There's another tactic they use, one which the FO will never use (and for obvious reason).

Creating salary cap hell by restructuring current salaries into bonuses, thus pushing the cap hit into future dead money.

This FO is VERY adamant about having minimal dead cap space, and I tend to agree with that position.

[*ochocincos*]

Bengals could easily eat into that $15 mill by...
Bodine - $4 mill a year
Huber - $3 mill a year
Andre - $4 mill a year
———————
$11 mill

Add in $1-2 mill for Chris Smith and that leaves just a few mill. Bengals then likely go bargain bin shopping again for 1-2 positions (I expect LB, OT, and/or backup QB).


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[fredtoast]

(03-11-2018, 02:28 PM)jj22 Wrote: Those teams just don't make it a priority to re-sign players like Bodine, Andre Smith, Adam Jones, and Eifert to take 10+m off the cap. That's the difference. Sure they make cuts. They don't feel the need to keep players like MJ and Lafell. I don't slam them for making those cap casualty cuts to bring in talent.

So if there are never any free agents better than Bodine, Andre Smith, Jones, and Eifert why are you so concerned that the Bengals are not signing any of these free agents?

I was under the impression that you thought there were some high quality players available in free agency.

[samhain]

(03-11-2018, 02:39 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Bengals could easily eat into that $15 mill by...
Bodine - $4 mill a year
Huber - $3 mill a year
Andre - $4 mill a year
———————
$11 mill

Add in $1-2 mill for Chris Smith and that leaves just a few mill. Bengals then likely go bargain bin shopping again for 1-2 positions (I expect LB, OT, and/or backup QB).


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If I recall, they actually went over the early reported numbers last year.  Maybe not by a ton, but I believe they spent over 20 when the number reported by Hobson was 15.  I think/hope if there's an outside guy in the 5 mil range, they will get him.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-11-2018, 03:51 PM)samhain Wrote: If I recall, they actually went over the early reported numbers last year.  Maybe not by a ton, but I believe they spent over 20 when the number reported by Hobson was 15.  I think/hope if there's an outside guy in the 5 mil range, they will get him.

Yep, they did.
And I think so too. Up to $5 mill a year for an outside FA, but I’d be surprised if it was more than that.


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[samhain]

(03-11-2018, 04:02 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Yep, they did.
And I think so too. Up to $5 mill a year for an outside FA, but I’d be surprised if it was more than that.


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I think they like to temper expectations.  Marvin may not when he makes his season ending hints at FA forays, but Hobson and the beat guys do.  

Don't get me wrong, I don't think they're signing and big names or will even be active week 1.  I just think that players like Whitehead, Hodges (they love to sign a token OLB every year) are absolutely in play.  I wish guys like Fulton, Richburg, and Jensen were in play, but it doesn't sound like they're looking at it that way.

I don't want much.  Just give me a decent starting caliber OLB and a linemen and I'm good.  Hell, I'd be good with one decent linebacker and letting Bodine walk to draft his replacement.  Hate the idea of seeing him out there for 3-4 more years.

[t3r3e3]

(03-11-2018, 02:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So if there are never any free agents better than Bodine, Andre Smith, Jones, and Eifert why are you so concerned that the Bengals are not signing any of these free agents?

I was under the impression that you thought there were some high quality players available in free agency.

To imply that there are not FA upgrades for players of Bodine’s caliber is laughable or just plain horse shite. Ryan Jensen, Weston Richtburg, etc are currently available, as are many mid tier guys virtually every offseason. They’re obvious upgrades, and would not put the team in cap hell. The issue is not that upgrades are not available, it’s that Mike Brown will not pony up the cash to sign them, nor will he regularly cut loose underachieving vets to create additional space. Thus, every year we hear the same old “gotta re-sign our own” chestnut which really means “gotta re-sign our own only if they take team friendly deals.”

[Gamma Ray Tan]

(03-11-2018, 02:09 PM)jfkbengals Wrote: But it does.

Look at the numbers presented by GRT on page 2:

Adjusted Salary Cap

$188,783,459

Subtract:


Active Contracts:
$152,106,135
Dead Cap:
$1,296,881
Draft Pool Cap:
$8,974,818
2017 Rollover:
$11,583,459

Remaining Cap Space= $14,822,166

Rollover money wouldn't be subtracted. Those funds are not allocated yet, you have to consider that money available.

If the estimated cap space is over 35 million, with draft picks already accounted for, and claim only 15 million for FA. where is the 20 million+ going?

[jfkbengals]

(03-11-2018, 04:33 PM)Gamma Ray Tan Wrote: Rollover money wouldn't be subtracted. Those funds are not allocated yet, you have to consider that money available.

If the estimated cap space is over 35 million,  with draft picks already accounted for, and claim only 15 million for FA. where is the 20 million+  going?

Therein lies part of the problem.

The $35m is the difference between the salary cap and all current contracts.

The draft pick salaries are a part of that $35m.

Dead money from old contracts are also a part of that $35m, and it clearly cannot be spent again.

If you don't want to count the rollover, that is fine.

In that case we have $26m left, with the team stating they will spend $15m on free agents and $11m on contract extensions.

Regardless, we are left with $15m for outside free agents.

Math doesn't lie.

[Gamma Ray Tan]

2018 cap space


LEAGUE AVERAGE: $34,030,061

1. CLEVELAND BROWNS: $108,919,295
2. NEW YORK JETS: $92,083,128
3. CHICAGO BEARS: $77,532,002
4. INDIANAPOLIS COLTS: $73,878,001
5. TAMPA BAY BUCCANEERS: $73,095,826
6. SAN FRANCISCO 49ERS: $67,029,331
7. HOUSTON TEXANS: $62,999,974
8. LOS ANGELES RAMS: $53,356,308
9. TENNESSEE TITANS: $49,156,490
10. MINNESOTA VIKINGS: $48,097,861
11. CINCINNATI BENGALS: $35,404,193
12. WASHINGTON REDSKINS: $31,632,697
13. NEW ORLEANS SAINTS: $30,855,967
14. JACKSONVILLE JAGUARS: $29,517,573
15. DETROIT LIONS: $27,724,956
16. BUFFALO BILLS: $25,637,307
17. CAROLINA PANTHERS: $24,466,287
18. DENVER BRONCOS: $23,903,805
19. LOS ANGELES CHARGERS: $23,212,918
20. NEW YORK GIANTS: $22,882,780
21. ARIZONA CARDINALS: $20,419,161
22. KANSAS CITY CHIEFS: $20,071,333
23. OAKLAND RAIDERS: $19,133,959
24. NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS: $16,607,974
25. GREEN BAY PACKERS: $16,497,123
26. ATLANTA FALCONS: $14,813,765
27. SEATTLE SEAHAWKS: $11,712,310
28. BALTIMORE RAVENS: $9,009,589
29. PITTSBURGH STEELERS: $5,394,632
30. DALLAS COWBOYS: $1,578,082
31. PHILADELPHIA EAGLES: -9,133,036
32. MIAMI DOLPHINS: $-18,529,645