And just like that, Brandon LaFell is even more valuable.....

[Au165]

(04-17-2018, 12:22 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Slightly? The dude has 137 more reception, over 2 thousand yards and a whooping 44 more TDs than Lafell has. He's massively better than Lafell. Obviously when they had Romo, Dez was a clear #1 WR. He put up over a grand and  at least 10 TDs  his last three years with Romo. But with Dak, they didn't seem to mesh well.

In the last three years, which is what I have said, they are the same guy basically. Bryant shades better because of TD's but frankly your not paying Bryant much more than Lafell on anything other than name recognition. 

Bryant- 2035 yards, 150 receptions, 17 TDs, average of 49% catch rate.
LaFell- 1925 yards, 153 receptions, 9 TDs, average of 56.1% catch rate.

I am not paying guys based on what they did when they were fresh, pre injury, and new to the league I pay them on recent success. Recent success tells me LaFell is basically Dez now except he catches less TD's but is more reliable at actually catching the ball when it's thrown to him. Dez got found out a couple years back, I think it was Norman who basically said the guy runs three routes and based on tape and tendency you basically know which one he runs each play within a yard of the line.

....again if Dez would play for what LaFell is making I'd take Dez, but seriously the gap between the two TODAY isn't what people think it is.

[Au165]

(04-17-2018, 01:06 PM)jj22 Wrote: I think Lafell will be cut and this will all work itself out.

It's possible, but I'm not sure you want to do that until Ross or someone else proves they can step in full time.

[Hoofhearted]

(04-17-2018, 03:04 PM)Au165 Wrote: In the last three years, which is what I have said, they are the same guy basically. Bryant shades better because of TD's but frankly your not paying Bryant much more than Lafell on anything other than name recognition. 

Bryant- 2035 yards, 150 receptions, 17 TDs, average of 49% catch rate.
LaFell- 1925 yards, 153 receptions, 9 TDs, average of 56.1% catch rate.

I am not paying guys based on what they did when they were fresh, pre injury, and new to the league I pay them on recent success. Recent success tells me LaFell is basically Dez now except he catches less TD's but is more reliable at actually catching the ball when it's thrown to him. Dez got found out a couple years back, I think it was Norman who basically said the guy runs three routes and based on tape and tendency you basically know which one he runs each play within a yard of the line.

....again if Dez would play for what LaFell is making I'd take Dez, but seriously the gap between the two TODAY isn't what people think it is.

Yes sir, I got your three year buffer in your original post. Even with the last three years numbers, Dez is still better than Lafell today. Would I want him on the Bengals? hell no. I don't want a prima dona WR when we already got a better one with AJ. Our WR core already boosts a pretty good % of our cap, so there's little reason to add 8-10 mil guy on it. 

But this has all the makings for a great "value deal" for a team is all I am saying. You can probably ask him to take a pretty big pay cut (since the Cowboys cut him at probably the worst time possible) and bank on his potential... potential you've seen for consecutive years in the right system. Teams will be willing to take that gamble. 

[Au165]

(04-17-2018, 03:11 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Yes sir, I got your three year buffer in your original post. Even with the last three years numbers, Dez is still better than Lafell today. Would I want him on the Bengals? hell no. I don't want a prima dona WR when we already got a better one with AJ. Our WR core already boosts a pretty good % of our cap, so there's little reason to add 8-10 mil guy on it. 

But this has all the makings for a great "value deal" for a team is all I am saying. You can probably ask him to take a pretty big pay cut (since the Cowboys cut him at probably the worst time possible) and bank on his potential... potential you've seen for consecutive years in the right system. Teams will be willing to take that gamble. 

Yea, the numbers just don't prove out he is MUCH better. Again, I point to this not being about him being better it's this idea he is some huge upgrade over LaFell which he isn't, it's marginal really (I even said for the same money I'd take Dez over LaFell). He has struggled with drops for a while now and as I said he has been figured out as his athletic ability has decreased. I think some team will take a gamble because the pickings are limited at this point, but an idea that he is anything more than a high end 2 today is wishful thinking. I think a team like the Ravens will take him because they still haven't figured out WR yet, but he is going to have another 800 yard 6-8 TD season there. You could get the one year "revenge" bump and he have a nice death kneel year this year, but I just don't think it'll work long term anywhere. Everyone in the NFL knows Dez isn't a number 1 anymore except Dez, and that in the end will probably be the biggest issue.

[Hoofhearted]

(04-17-2018, 03:16 PM)Au165 Wrote: Yea, the numbers just don't prove out he is MUCH better. Again, I point to this not being about him being better it's this idea he is some huge upgrade over LaFell which he isn't, it's marginal really (I even said for the same money I'd take Dez over LaFell). He has struggled with drops for a while now and as I said he has been figured out as his athletic ability has decreased. I think some team will take a gamble because the pickings are limited at this point, but an idea that he is anything more than a high end 2 today is wishful thinking. I think a team like the Ravens will take him because they still haven't figured out WR yet, but he is going to have another 800 yard 6-8 TD season there. You could get the one year "revenge" bump and he have a nice death kneel year this year, but I just don't think it'll work long term anywhere. Everyone in the NFL knows Dez isn't a number 1 anymore except Dez, and that in the end will probably be the biggest issue.

We're pretty much on the same page. The numbers as a whole says he is, but you're right; it's a what have you done for me lately league, and he hasn't done much lately. He'll be a decent #2 for a team. And the Ravens always seem to take those over-paid WRs. Your last sentence is exactly why I don't want him anywhere near the Bengals locker room. 

[Essex Johnson]

(04-17-2018, 11:09 AM)jj22 Wrote: I don't understand why many in the jungle thinks Lafell's 548 yards is some irreplaceable figure. I don't buy it.

Lafells numbers last year are predictable with the terrible overall offensive numbers we had across the board.. look at his 2016 numbers and they compare higher than many #2 WRs.  i have no problem keeping this veteran and sounds like Lazor system might be a better fit for him.

[jj22]

Quick note. In 2016 he was a wr #1

[Essex Johnson]

(04-17-2018, 10:06 PM)jj22 Wrote: Quick note. In 2016 he was a wr #1

that would be a negative.. he was a #2 WR.. yes AJ was hurt and out 6 games but still the numbers were solid and many teams through out the year have starters out for multiple games.. etc   Still can't debate the numbers  especially playing the majority of games as #2 862 yards ( 39 ranked) 13.5 ypc  ( 36 ranked) 
6 TDs (30) ranked

[Bengalitis]

(04-17-2018, 02:40 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: This. What I heard/read is that Dez has never gotten much separation, but he's great at "boxing out" and beating corners with his physicality. Romo knew this and still threw him the ball. Apparently Dak is not a risk taker and won't throw unless he see's that Dez has a step on the CB. He doesn't trust Dez to win otherwise. 

Long story short, Dak and Dez aren't meshing.

I'd love to see him as the #2, so long as it's only $1-2 million more than what we pay LaFell. I wouldn't pay big bucks though.


So he's implying that Ivory Tickler put everyone to sleep? 

Seems like he's "throwing shade".

I like LaFell, he will be the one making that catch that wins us the SUPER BOWL!!!

[Shake n Blake]

(04-17-2018, 03:04 PM)Au165 Wrote: In the last three years, which is what I have said, they are the same guy basically. Bryant shades better because of TD's but frankly your not paying Bryant much more than Lafell on anything other than name recognition. 

Bryant- 2035 yards, 150 receptions, 17 TDs, average of 49% catch rate.
LaFell- 1925 yards, 153 receptions, 9 TDs, average of 56.1% catch rate.

I am not paying guys based on what they did when they were fresh, pre injury, and new to the league I pay them on recent success. Recent success tells me LaFell is basically Dez now except he catches less TD's but is more reliable at actually catching the ball when it's thrown to him. Dez got found out a couple years back, I think it was Norman who basically said the guy runs three routes and based on tape and tendency you basically know which one he runs each play within a yard of the line.

....again if Dez would play for what LaFell is making I'd take Dez, but seriously the gap between the two TODAY isn't what people think it is.

You might as well throw out 2015 for both, because it's unfair to judge either based on that season. LaFell was less than 100%, working his way back from injury. Dez was catching passes from Weeden (among others) and missed 7+ games due to injury himself.

Looking at the last 2 years, here's their per game averages:

Bryant: 56.3 yards - 0.48 TDs
LaFell: 44.1 yards - 0.28 TDs

I'll take 12 more yards and a 20% higher chance for a TD any day. Assuming the price difference isn't big. Obviously Dez has far more upside as well. He's a "name" because he's produced big in the past. That doesn't mean he'll produce in the future, but there is a chance for a rebound. LaFell "rebounding" would be producing near the level of Bryant's down years. You also have to consider that Bryant is a bit younger.

[BengalChris]

(04-17-2018, 08:40 AM)PDub80 Wrote:  Perhaps when they cut him and get that big number off the books he can make an instant transition to assistant WR coach!

I'm kidding. I don't hate LaFell like most others. I don't love him. But don't hate him, either. This article smells of hype before they cut a guy. Classic Hobson!

I don't hate LaFell. At least he plays well enough in practice to beat out Core, Boyd, Ross, Malone and Erickson.

It's just that LaFell isn't a good #2. He's more of a guy you bring in that you can count on as needed. It's not his fault that the most recent WR selections can't keep up with him.

God, do our WR evaluations suck arse or what?

[fredtoast]

(04-18-2018, 12:48 AM)BengalChris Wrote: God, do our WR evaluations suck arse or what?

Actually LaFell was an absolute steal in free agency in '16 and we got one of the most productive rookie WRs (Boyd) with a 2nd round pick.

[fredtoast]

LaFell has been a starter for three different teams. Since he came into the league in 2010 on 32 other WRs have as many catches as LaFell (394). Among those 33 WRs he ranks 14th in yards per catch. He is not the scrub many here try to claim.

I hope one of the young WRs improves and pushes him down the depth chart, but LaFell is a solid starter and would not be as easy to replace as a some people think.

[Luvnit2]

(04-18-2018, 10:06 AM)fredtoast Wrote: LaFell has been a starter for three different teams.  Since he came into the league in 2010 on 32 other WRs have as many catches as LaFell (394).  Among those 33 WRs he ranks 14th in yards per catch.  He is not the scrub many here try to claim.

I hope one of the young WRs improves and pushes him down the depth chart, but LaFell is a solid starter and would not be as easy to replace as a some people think.

I agree with Fred. LaFell is what he is, he is paid low end #2 money for a reason, he is not a number 1 option due to not being able to run all routes effectively like an AJ Green and others.

Bryant is on the decline looking at his results past 2 years. I believe he was set to make 12 million in 2018 so closer comparison to AJ Green money than LaFell so not sure why we are debating Bryant versus LaFell, maybe we should be debating Green versus Bryant if we were seriously looking at him which I say we are not.

[*Nately120*]

(04-17-2018, 03:07 PM)Au165 Wrote: It's possible, but I'm not sure you want to do that until Ross or someone else proves they can step in full time.

No way, haven't you heard the saying "The cream always rises to the top...unless there is a middling vet in the way in which case the cream just stays on the bench because Marvin Lewis is a big meanie!"

(04-18-2018, 09:39 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually LaFell was an absolute steal in free agency in '16 and we got one of the most productive rookie WRs (Boyd) with a 2nd round pick.

It was interesting watching people immediately declare signing LaFell to be a genius move because he was going to replace Jones at a fraction of the price.  Fast forward to the moment we draft any other WRs and suddenly LaFell goes from a genius move to the colossal boner that is going to screw up our WR room for years to come.  Wacky.

[fredtoast]

(04-18-2018, 11:28 AM)Nately120 Wrote: It was interesting watching people immediately declare signing LaFell to be a genius move because he was going to replace Jones at a fraction of the price. 

On what planet did this happen?  Pretty much no one around here was very happy with the move.  Lafell was considered another "bargain basement" signing who was not good enough to replace Jones

[*Nately120*]

(04-18-2018, 11:53 AM)fredtoast Wrote: On what planet did this happen?  Pretty much no one around here was very happy with the move.  Lafell was considered another "bargain basement" signing who was not good enough to replace Jones

The planet where fans of an NFL team get butthurt when a player wants mo' money.  You know...Earf.

[Shake n Blake]

I wanted LaFell as a stopgap in 2016. It worked out well, but if we can get an upgrade at a decent price, I'm still all for it. LaFell wasn't meant to be a permanent solution.

Marvin Jones signed a 5 year, $40 million deal with the Lions. Overall, we've signed LaFell for 3 years, $11.5 million. If we signed Jones to that deal, do we still pull the trade for Cordy Glenn and his contract? Do we still sign Preston Brown?

And Jones has still maintained his inconsistent ways.

- He had a 16 game streak where he only posted 632 yards and 4 TD's. Before he went on a tear last year, he was shaping up to be a massive bust.
- In 2 seasons as a Lion, he's had 8 games with 2 catches or less, and 10 games with 37 yards or less.

At that price range, you want a reliable producer. Jones is not that.

[Luvnit2]

(04-18-2018, 12:47 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I wanted LaFell as a stopgap in 2016. It worked out well, but if we can get an upgrade at a decent price, I'm still all for it. LaFell wasn't meant to be a permanent solution.

Marvin Jones signed a 5 year, $40 million deal with the Lions. Overall, we've signed LaFell for 3 years, $11.5 million. If we signed Jones to that deal, do we still pull the trade for Cordy Glenn and his contract? Do we still sign Preston Brown?

And Jones has still maintained his inconsistent ways.

- He had a 16 game streak where he only posted 632 yards and 4 TD's. Before he went on a tear last year, he was shaping up to be a massive bust.
- In 2 seasons as a Lion, he's had 8 games with 2 catches or less, and 10 games with 37 yards or less.

At that price range, you want a reliable producer. Jones is not that.

I think Jones wanted to be a number 1 but in reality he will never be more than a very good #2. I have a hunch the Lions are still looking for a number 1 to push him to their #2. I am not trashing Jones, he is a very good number 2, but he will never command the attention of the Julio Jones, Green, A. Brown or any top tier number one. Why is that important? If are going to compare number ones to Jones, we need to realize teams game plan to stop the studs making it harder for them to get their yards, catches and TD's while Jones get easier coverages so his numbers should be better, but are they really?

[BengalChris]

(04-18-2018, 09:39 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually LaFell was an absolute steal in free agency in '16 and we got one of the most productive rookie WRs (Boyd) with a 2nd round pick.

Love how you cherry pick. It's a art form.

After the Pats cut LaFell we only picked up because he was cheap and wouldn't cost a comp pick later. Yet we have a top 10 pick, a 2nd round pick and a couple of other picks over the past two years and none of them can beat LaFell out for a starting spot. That's just sad. Nothing against LaFell at all. Heck he's beat these panzies out and getting the starting role. More power to him.

(04-18-2018, 12:47 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I wanted LaFell as a stopgap in 2016. It worked out well, but if we can get an upgrade at a decent price, I'm still all for it. LaFell wasn't meant to be a permanent solution.

Marvin Jones signed a 5 year, $40 million deal with the Lions. Overall, we've signed LaFell for 3 years, $11.5 million. If we signed Jones to that deal, do we still pull the trade for Cordy Glenn and his contract? Do we still sign Preston Brown? 

And Jones has still maintained his inconsistent ways. 

- He had a 16 game streak where he only posted 632 yards and 4 TD's. Before he went on a tear last year, he was shaping up to be a massive bust.
- In 2 seasons as a Lion, he's had 8 games with 2 catches or less, and 10 games with 37 yards or less.

At that price range, you want a reliable producer. Jones is not that.

See Blake gets me on this. We try to draft upgrades to LaFell, but they haven't taken the starting job away from him.