The QB position

[fredtoast]

(05-07-2018, 12:58 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The game he had in the divisional round would be legendary around here. Word was that he was shaky in that one, but it would be our top playoff performance ever. No Bengals QB has ever thrown 300+ yards with a 90+ rating in the playoffs. Palmer threw for 349 and 3 TDs with a 92.4 rating against Green Bay.

I'll be honest.  I did not realize he played that well in that game.  All I remember was how bad he was the next week against Carolina (4 ints, 43.2 rating)

BTW you know how some people say you can twist stats to say anything?  Well here is a classic example I was tempted to use.

"Palmer's career playoff passer rating with the Bengals (66.5) is almost identical to when he was with the Cards (67.1)"

[Shake n Blake]

(05-07-2018, 01:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I'll be honest.  I did not realize he played that well in that game.  All I remember was how bad he was the next week against Carolina (4 ints, 43.2 rating)

BTW you know how some people say you can twist stats to say anything?  Well here is a classic example I was tempted to use.

"Palmer's career playoff passer rating with the Bengals (66.5) is almost identical to when he was with the Cards (67.1)"

I get all that, and he was truly awful the following week, but you can't erase that one game. Why couldn't he (or anyone else) have that one game with the Bengals?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-05-2018, 06:09 PM)treee Wrote: Overall, in terms of the QB position the following is true:

- Dalton is young

- He is serviceable at worst

- We needed to improve our Oline and Defense quite badly


Those are the 3 main reasons why we didn't select a QB, even though it was a deep class.

Yep, Dalton is not the problem and Driskel played well last Preseason and has high upside.

Still don't understand the Lamar Jackson love when Jeff Driskel is just as fast, is bigger and has a better throwing motion.

It is RG3 all over again but with a gadgety release.

[fredtoast]

(05-07-2018, 01:21 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote:  Why couldn't he (or anyone else) have that one game with the Bengals?

That is the magic question.

[Brownshoe]

(05-07-2018, 12:58 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The game he had in the divisional round would be legendary around here. Word was that he was shaky in that one, but it would be our top playoff performance ever. No Bengals QB has ever thrown 300+ yards with a 90+ rating in the playoffs. Palmer threw for 349 and 3 TDs with a 92.4 rating against Green Bay.

Palmer didnt play well in that game at all. It was all Fitzgerald. Fitz probably had almost of those yards as YAC yards, and I think he had all of the TD passes. I remember watching that game and thinking Palmer played pretty horrible. I mean I know that one of the last plays of the game was Fitz taking a 5 yard pass 70 yards for a TD.

[Brownshoe]

(05-07-2018, 02:13 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Palmer didnt play well in that game at all. It was all Fitzgerald. Fitz probably had almost of those yards as YAC yards, and I think he had all of the TD passes. I remember watching that game and thinking Palmer played pretty horrible. I mean I know that one of the last plays of the game was Fitz taking a 5 yard pass 70 yards for a TD.

I just watched the highlight for that game, and even the commenters were saying Palmer played bad (for what its worth). Fitz only had 1 TD, but he still was the MVP by far in that game. One of Palmers TDs was a good throw the other was deflected off of a defender into a Cardinal player 5 yards down the field. There were just as many if not more bad Palmer throws on the highlight than there good ones...

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-07-2018, 02:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That is the magic question.

All we're left with is speculation.....

[fredtoast]

(05-07-2018, 01:21 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I get all that, and he was truly awful the following week, but you can't erase that one game. Why couldn't he (or anyone else) have that one game with the Bengals?

Greatest performance I ever saw by a Bengal RB was Benson against the Jets in '09. (I had to listen the Dillon's 278 on the radio)

I've seen Bengal RBs gain more than 169 yards, but Benson seemed to be making all of those yards on his own.  We had zero passing game and the Jets had the #1 defense in the league that year.  But Ced was breaking tackles and just running over guys all over the field. 

Total waste of an epic performance.

EDIT...You see that one section of my post where the font is smaller.  I can not correct that.  I try removing any formatting and then changing font size, but it just won't change.  Anyone have a clue what could be going on?

[Shake n Blake]

(05-07-2018, 02:13 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Palmer didnt play well in that game at all. It was all Fitzgerald. Fitz probably had almost of those yards as YAC yards, and I think he had all of the TD passes. I remember watching that game and thinking Palmer played pretty horrible. I mean I know that one of the last plays of the game was Fitz taking a 5 yard pass 70 yards for a TD.

Like I said, he was very shaky, but that would still be the best QB performance in Bengals history, despite the 2 INTs. I think that says more about the Bengals than Palmer.

(05-07-2018, 05:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Greatest performance I ever saw by a Bengal RB was Benson against the Jets in '09. (I had to listen the Dillon's 278 on the radio)

I've seen Bengal RBs gain more than 169 yards, but Benson seemed to be making all of those yards on his own.  We had zero passing game and the Jets had the #1 defense in the league that year.  But Ced was breaking tackles and just running over guys all over the field. 

Total waste of an epic performance.

EDIT...You see that one section of my post where the font is smaller.  I can not correct that.  I try removing any formatting and then changing font size, but it just won't change.  Anyone have a clue what could be going on?

Agreed on Benson. Sad thing is, some teams get performances like that pretty often in the playoffs. And I'm not sure about the font. Stuff like that happens to me pretty frequently. I always have to edit my post to remove huge gaps in paragraphs. Occasionally I'll get a messed up font that can't be fixed. Especially with copying and pasting. I've never figured out how to fix that.

[*bfine32*]

(05-07-2018, 09:32 AM)fredtoast Wrote: There are 45 active QBs with at least 750 career attempts.  Dalton ranks 13th of 45.

You can call him "average" because you make up your own definition of "average", but based on his stats and production any team that had him would lock him up long term instead of looking for another QB.

I made nothing up I used stats from Football database:
https://www.footballdb.com/leaders/active-passing-rating

It appears someone may have made up that 750 pass threshold. My "made up" definition of average aside what do you consider 10 of 24? Hell it does put him in the top 41% so maybe elite is a better description.

[*bfine32*]

(05-07-2018, 09:21 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Tyrod Taylor is a limited QB who has never thrown more than 20 tds in a seasoon.  Over the three years he has been a starter the Bills have the #1 rushing offense in the league which has made his job much easier.

His team is loooking for better because they need better.

Any team that had a QB like Dalton would be locking him up with a long term contract.

You mean like they did for Matt Schaub (the QB ahead of Andy in the coveted career passer rating stat). One team re-signed Matt Schaub ONCE in his career and they traded him for a six rounder the year after doing so.

I wonder if the Bengals rushing offense would have been any better if they had a "limited" QB that rushed for over 1500 at over 5.5.YPC over the last 3 years instead of an "unlimited" QB that has rush 400  for around 400 yards at around 3.0 YPC

[*bfine32*]

(05-07-2018, 01:21 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I get all that, and he was truly awful the following week, but you can't erase that one game. Why couldn't he (or anyone else) have that one game with the Bengals?

Kimo Von Oelhoffen

[Shake n Blake]

(05-07-2018, 10:12 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Kimo Von Oelhoffen

18/36 (50%)
146 yards (4.06 per attempt)
1 TD/1 INT
1 fumble 
58.3 passer rating
Kimo nowhere in sight.

[*bfine32*]

(05-07-2018, 11:25 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 18/36 (50%)
146 yards (4.06 per attempt)
1 TD/1 INT
1 fumble 
58.3 passer rating
Kimo nowhere in sight.

Yeah, that was Carson's second playoff game right? How'd his second in ARZ go?

We obviously don't know what CP9 would have done in his first game. But he was 1 for 1 for 68 yards and a passer rating of 118.7. Now folks can play like they don't know how CP9 would have fared in that game, but most folks that watch the game saw how it was going to go.

[Brownshoe]

(05-07-2018, 11:59 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yeah, that was Carson's second playoff game right? How'd his second in ARZ go?

We obviously don't know what CP9 would have done in his first game. But he was 1 for 1 for 68 yards and a passer rating of 118.7. Now folks can play like they don't know how CP9 would have fared in that game, but most folks that watch the game saw how it was going to go.

Honestly not that good. The stats are there, I'll give you that, but his tape is pretty bad. Lots of bad throws, and one of this TD's was actually a fluke. A defender deflected a ball and it went into the hands of a Card player in the end zone. Fitz broke off some amazing YAC yards, one for 70 yards for a 10 yard throw. Fitz played like a monster that game, and made Palmer look better. Palmer didn't completely poop his pants, but it wasn't a good game.

[Shake n Blake]

(05-07-2018, 11:59 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yeah, that was Carson's second playoff game right? How'd his second in ARZ go?

We obviously don't know what CP9 would have done in his first game. But he was 1 for 1 for 68 yards and a passer rating of 118.7. Now folks can play like they don't know how CP9 would have fared in that game, but most folks that watch the game saw how it was going to go.

The thing is, we really don't know. Are we going to pretend we haven't seen a great play at the beginning of a bad game? Sure, Palmer was on fire in 2005. Dalton was on fire in 2015. Do you think he would've lit up the Steelers? Of course you don't.

All we know is what we've actually seen. Kitna played like crap. CP played like crap. Dalton played like crap. McCarron played like crap. 

Simple facts here. No QB has not played like crap for Marvin Lewis. Players in general play like crap in playoffs/PT under Merv, but we focus on QB for 2 reasons (a) people are QB obsessed and (b) it's easier to determine when a QB is playing like crap (through stats). People don't like to acknowledge that the other QB's didn't fare so well because it hurts the "it's all Andy's fault" narrative...but it happened.

[fredtoast]

(05-07-2018, 09:55 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I made nothing up I used stats from Football database:
https://www.footballdb.com/leaders/active-passing-rating

It appears someone may have made up that 750 pass threshold. My "made up" definition of average aside what do you consider 10 of 24? Hell it does put him in the top 41% so maybe elite is a better description.

10 of 24 is average.

Call me when there are only 24 starting QBs in the NFL.

[fredtoast]

(05-08-2018, 12:38 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: All we know is what we've actually seen. Kitna played like crap. CP played like crap. Dalton played like crap. McCarron played like crap. 

Simple facts here. No QB has not played like crap for Marvin Lewis. Players in general play like crap in playoffs/PT under Merv, but we focus on QB for 2 reasons (a) people are QB obsessed and (b) it's easier to determine when a QB is playing like crap (through stats). People don't like to acknowledge that the other QB's didn't fare so well because it hurts the "it's all Andy's fault" narrative...but it happened.

This.


And while you will often complaion about people callingaverage to below average performances "total crap", but in this case it is mostly true. These were not just "below averge".  They were crap.

[*bfine32*]

(05-08-2018, 12:54 AM)fredtoast Wrote: 10 of 24 is average.

Call me when there are only 24 starting QBs in the NFL.

Actually there was 32 last year; Andy finished 18th. But I didn't want to focus solely on last year. I wanted to focus on this incredible Active passer rating that folks elude to. But if you think it is best we go year by year to determine if Andy is average we can do that.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-07-2018, 11:59 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yeah, that was Carson's second playoff game right? How'd his second in ARZ go?

Went pretty decent under Bruce Arians.