The QB position

[PDub80]

(05-09-2018, 02:00 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: How many tractors can tow the wagon we had last year to the playoffs (and post elite numbers)?

You've brought up Cousins last season, but he finished 12th in passer rating with 18 turnovers (13 INTs, 13 fumbles - 5 lost). His team also finished 7-9.

Where are all these guys that posted top 5 numbers and led their team to the playoffs when sacked 40+ times, with a bottom 3 run game (yards and YPC)? You've got 50+ years of SB era teams to choose from. Shouldn't be hard to compose a list if it's a common occurrence.

Stafford almost did it last year, but narrowly missed the playoffs an finished 6th in rating. It just doesn't happen often. Even the greats need help (not saying Dalton is a great). Check out Brady's sack totals and run games through the years. Peyton was rarely touched. Ben has taken sacks, but always has a run game. Needing help doesn't = you're getting towed.

You didn't directly answer the question.

Also, was last year Andy's first year playing? Why are you grandstanding on it like there aren't 6 other seasons where he's been basically the same guy.

I'm not as enamoured with the 2015 8 game stretch. He crashed back to reality against the Texans on Thurs Night Football. Dude played lights out for an 8 game stretch 3 years ago. Didn't show that before.... Hasn't shown it since. Lets all remember how he broke his thing: making a tackle after an awful throw for an INT at home against Pittsburgh.

So, I'll ask it again for BFine..... Is Andy a tractor or a wagon?

Hint: He is not the tractor.

- I'll 100% give you this, and I think most would agree.... The tractor on the Bengals is Marvin. The players aren't allowed to be in charge or do their thing or play "their game".

That's my one saving hope for Andy. Is that he breaks out of this Marvin shell and lets loose. I think he would be better off playing fast and free and NOT under Marvin's thumb. But that's on Andy as a leader and as a professional to do that. Until then, he's part of the problem.

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-28-2018, 08:56 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: Okay so I'm sitting here and overall pretty content with the NFL Draft and how things went with one exception.  How do we not draft a QB (besides pick #249) in such a deep class?  Every team in our division drafted a QB even in the case of a Pittsburgh who has an elite one already.  

Smart teams plan for the future. Dalton is serviceable but are we willing to pay him 20-25 million per year and continue to stay average at the position?  I thought the Ravens made a brilliant move in drafting Lamar Jackson....have him learn behind Flacco for a few year and see where things end up 3 years from now. Do they really want to give Flacco 25 million a year with the way he's playing? The same question can be posed for Andy......

Every off season we sit here and argue about Andy. I think most of us can come to the consensus that he's not terrible or great and that for the contract he's worth it....but that shouldn't preclude you from attempting to solidify/upgrade the position for the future especially with the way the QBs are getting paid.

Having not read through the 13 (!) pages of responses, I will give my two cents (sorry if someone beat me to it).

Dalton has three years left on his deal.  Even if they drafted a QB in the first round, he would't get an opportunity (barring injury) until his fourth year, leaving one optional year on his deal.  That is a high price to pay for a back up that won't play for four years.

Plus, I want to lend some support to one Matt Barkley, quietly signed in the offseason.  Barkley's junior year, he was a consensus #1 overall pick if he elected to come out in the draft.  Yet, he felt he had "unfinished business" and wanted to return to USC.  His senior season was a disaster (wins and loss wise, his numbers weren't bad, although his completion % dropped from 69+ to 63+.  

He ends up getting drafted in the fourth round.  Here is his main playing analysis from his NFL opportunities (he never really got an opportunity until he was with Chicago):


Following an injury to the Bears' backup quarterback [/url]Brian Hoyer against the Green Bay Packers on October 20, Barkley made his first NFL appearance as a member of the Chicago Bears, going 6 of 15 for 81 yards; he threw for zero touchdowns and two interceptions.[71] After Jay Cutler suffered a shoulder injury against the Giants, Barkley started the following week's game against the Tennessee Titans.[72] Barkley completed 28 of 54 passes for 316 yards with three touchdowns, two interceptions, and a 72.8 passer rating, nearly rallying the Bears from a 20-point deficit in the fourth quarter before losing 27–21.[73] Barkley earned his first NFL win the very next week on December 4, a 26–6 win over the San Francisco 49ers at Soldier Field. This was the Bears' third and last victory of the season.[74] He completed 11 for 18 passes for 192 yards, no touchdowns, no interceptions, and a 97.5 passer rating.[75]

On December 18, Barkley completed 30 passes for 362 yards, two touchdowns and three interceptions as the Bears nearly upset the Green Bay Packers, ultimately losing 30–27 on a last-second field goal. It was the most yards by a Bears quarterback in a game against Green Bay in the rivalry's history.[76]
Barkley struggled in the following week's game against the Washington Redskins, a 41–21 loss; although he threw for 323 yards and two touchdown passes, he also threw five interceptions, including on four consecutive drives in the second half. The five interceptions were the most by a Bears quarterback since Cutler threw five in 2009.[77][url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Barkley#cite_note-77]





Basically, the guy  threw for over 300 yards in three of his first four starts, but did have way too many interceptions.  His strengths is his accuracy on quick routes and his ability to read a defense.  He wasn't surrounded by massive talent or a great offensive mind (John Fox, head coach) and that team went 3-13.  I am not saying he is going to unseat Dalton, but I feel very confident the guy will grasp the playbook and be ready at a moment's notice to come in and be a solid QB.  





This team has shown it can be lethal with Dalton at QB if he is protected at all.  Barkley  was a great pick up in FA.  This team needed to focus on what they did:  The offensive line, LB, DT,  and safety






.


  

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-28-2018, 10:05 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: If Mayfield works out (history certainly suggests he won’t) Dalton could be the 4th best QB in this division in a year or two. Kinda scary...

With piggy being fat and old, Flacco's one year wonder over, and Mayfield with an uphill battle, he could also be the best in our division next year....Just like in 2015.  Kind of scary.  

[fredtoast]

(05-08-2018, 06:57 PM)bfine32 Wrote:  What is wrong with top 1/3 being good, middle third being average, and bottom 1/3 being poor?

Absolutely nothing

(05-08-2018, 09:36 AM)fredtoast Wrote:   There are 45 active QBs with at least 750 career attempts.   Dalton ranks 13th out of those 45 QBs in career passer rating.

(05-08-2018, 02:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: How about we look at the active QBs with at least 32 starts.  There are 36 of them.  I think that would give us a better understanding of how he ranks among his peers (12th of 36).

If you expand it to active QBs with at least 16 starts that expands the field to 51 and Dalton ranks 14th.

[fredtoast]

(05-09-2018, 03:04 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote:  Yes he played great in 2015 but according to "STATISTICS" he's been average to below average the other 4 years.

QBR is a silly stat, but passer arting is not much different.  Dalton has finished in the top 15 four of seven years with a high of second.  He has three years where he was below average, but only once ('14) dropping out of the top 20.

If the 2015 season never happened then you could say Dalton was just average, but it did happen.  And that makes him above average.  No matter how much you try you can not make the '15 season go away.  That '15 season was not just "good" it was great.  Only 6 active QBs have had a season with a higher passer rating than Dalton had in '15.

But as I have often pointed out Dalton does a lot of litttle things that people overlook.

He is second in career rushing tds among active QBs.

His fumble percentage is third lowest out of the 45 active QBs with at least 750 pass attempts.

According to Profootballreference.com since Dalton entered the league in 2011 only 2 starting QBs have more "4th Quarter Comebacks" and only 3 have more 4th quarter "Game Winning Drives".

Factor in all of those stats along with his top third passer rating and that puts Dalton in the "good" catagory instead of just "average".

[Socal Bengals fan]

Dalton still sucks can we move on. unless he has a perfect supporting staff, he is a below average quarterback who shrinks in the spot light

[*bfine32*]

(05-09-2018, 09:19 AM)fredtoast Wrote: QBR is a silly stat, but passer arting is not much different.  Dalton has finished in the top 15 four of seven years with a high of second.  He has three years where he was below average, but only once ('14) dropping out of the top 20.

If the 2015 season never happened then you could say Dalton was just average, but it did happen.  And that makes him above average.  No matter how much you try you can not make the '15 season go away.  That '15 season was not just "good" it was great.  Only 6 active QBs have had a season with a higher passer rating than Dalton had in '15.

But as I have often pointed out Dalton does a lot of litttle things that people overlook.

He is second in career rushing tds among active QBs.

His fumble percentage is third lowest out of the 45 active QBs with at least 750 pass attempts.

According to Profootballreference.com since Dalton entered the league in 2011 only 2 starting QBs have more "4th Quarter Comebacks" and only 3 have more 4th quarter "Game Winning Drives".

Factor in all of those stats along with his top third passer rating and that puts Dalton in the "good" catagory instead of just "average".

It is amazing the hoops that many will jump through to try to make an average quarterback appear to be more than he is. If you want to applaud Andy's russhing TDs then you must agree he had great running support in 2015-2016 when Jeremy Hill had 20 rushing TDs. Don't concern yourself with the fact that he only averaged around 3.7 YPC, because who would consider YPC when talking rushing stats?

Folks who actually keep the stats do not have Andy in the top 1/3 of passer rating. Only fanboys that make up their own criteria can do so.

[*bfine32*]

(05-09-2018, 09:52 AM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: Dalton still sucks can we move on.  unless he has a perfect supporting staff, he is a below average quarterback who shrinks in the spot light

Dalton does not suck, but I do agree that he is reliant on a very good supporting cast, but so are most average QBs. Only the truly great one can elevate those around them or put entire teams on their shoulders.

[*bfine32*]

Last year before the season started I put Andy at 17th when guessing where he would finish in passer rating. Predictably I was labeled a hater and didn't understand how truly great Andy is. Thanks to Aaron Rogers going down with injury I only missed it by 1 as he finished 18th. Who wants to guess what will happen when we start forecasting these things this year.

[BengalChris]

(05-09-2018, 12:02 AM)bfine32 Wrote: There's a saying about QBs: You're either the tractor or the wagon. Which one do you think Andy is?

Why does a QB have to be a tractor OR a wagon? There's not such thing as a complete and total wagon at QB because such people will never make a team.

I'd place Dalton in the more tractor than wagon category, slightly above average QB. He's no Manning or Brady or even a Wilson.

Marvin Lewis is not the kind of coach who can take a team and get more out than the sum of it's parts. In fact, I would say he gets less than the sum of the parts. Belicheck gets more than the sum of the parts.

[fredtoast]

(05-09-2018, 10:12 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Last year before the season started I put Andy at 17th when guessing where he would finish in passer rating. Predictably I was labeled a hater and didn't understand how truly great Andy is. Thanks to Aaron Rogers going down with injury I only missed it by 1 as he finished 18th. Who wants to guess what will happen when we start forecasting these things this year.

Last year when you made that prediction Dalton had finished in the top 15 four of six seasons.  So there was reason to castigate you.

Don't try to act like you have never been wrong about Dalton, and I am sure you were wrong about exactly which 16 QBs would rank ahead of him.

This is a Bengals message board.  People should castigate you for taking a negative position.  If you were never wrong then I could see where you would not deserve it.  But that is not the case. 

[redwood]

(04-28-2018, 10:04 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: Yeah they learned that from the McCarron scenario.

Nobody is going to clamor for Barkley.

Driskell perhaps, but to the rest of the NFL analysts and fans he's a nobody.

Only Bengal fans who know more than the starters even know who he is for that matter.

Well..... McCarron in a few years only played a few times and he's gone.  You do NOT want to  use up a high pick on a guy who probably sits a few years.   we had SEVERAL priorities.  When Andy starts to get too OLD, we'll pick our replacement

[fredtoast]

(05-09-2018, 10:07 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Folks who actually keep the stats do not have Andy in the top 1/3 of passer rating. 

But they only rank 24 QBs in a 32 team league.

That issue has to be addressed to get any sort of realistic ranking.

[*bfine32*]

(05-09-2018, 10:48 AM)fredtoast Wrote: But they only rank 24 QBs in a 32 team league.

That issue has to be addressed to get any sort of realistic ranking.

Well I suppose you should take it up with the folks that maintain such stats. 

As I said there were 32 starting QBs last year and Andy finished 18th. Is that ranking realistic enough for you?

[*PhilHos*]

(05-08-2018, 06:57 PM)bfine32 Wrote: According to the link provided Andy is 11th out of 24. Why do folks keep saying 10th?

Because the link provided lists Andy as 10th. Even YOU said he was 10th according to the list.

(05-07-2018, 09:55 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I made nothing up I used stats from Football database:
https://www.footballdb.com/leaders/active-passing-rating

It appears someone may have made up that 750 pass threshold. My "made up" definition of average aside what do you consider 10 of 24? Hell it does put him in the top 41% so maybe elite is a better description.

[*PhilHos*]

(05-08-2018, 07:00 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well your unbiased opinion on the matter aside. I have provided a link from a football datatbase that shows Andy is 11 of 24 in passer rating for QBs that qualify. i suppose I could continue my opinion based BS and show where he finished 18th of 32 in the most recent NFL season. But those things would just be opinions. Real facts come from fans.

You provided a link from a football database that shows Andy is 10th of 24 in passer rating for QBs that qualify. Before you complain about others not using "real facts" you may want to make sure YOUR facts are 100% real. Just sayin'.

[*PhilHos*]

(05-09-2018, 03:04 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: Some of you make absolutely no sense.  I find it laughable that you have such a tough time with average starting QB.  Do you realize that the entire world disagrees with you? If you want to deal with statistics only then let us go ahead and do it.

QBR ranking by year.

2017: 25th
2016: 20th
2015: 3rd
2014: 22nd
2013: 17th

So essentially he has been average to below average 4 out of 5 seasons.  Yes he played great in 2015 but according to "STATISTICS" he's been average to below average the other 4 years.

I know none of you want to hear this because you're on his jock, but deal with the FACTS.

You can't say you're using facts when you use QBR.

[XenoMorph]

(05-09-2018, 12:39 PM)PhilHos Wrote: You can't say you're using facts when you use QBR.

lol right QBR the ESPN made up stat no one knows how to calculate

[fredtoast]

(05-09-2018, 10:50 AM)bfine32 Wrote: As I said there were 32 starting QBs last year and Andy finished 18th. Is that ranking realistic enough for you?

Sure it is, but we have been over this before, you can't judge a QB from just one season.

[*PhilHos*]

(05-09-2018, 09:52 AM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: Dalton still sucks can we move on.  unless he has a perfect supporting staff, he is a below average quarterback who shrinks in the spot light