The QB position

[fredtoast]

(05-16-2018, 01:04 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: As long as Marvin Lewis is our coach we won't win with a mediocre/average QB like Dalton. Perhaps if we had an elite coach we could. 

On the flip side, if Marvin had a great QB I think we could also win.

The bottom line is that the Marvin Lewis/Andy Dalton combo is not capable of winning a SB....hell they may not even be capable of winning a playoff game. 

List the QBs who could win with Marvin as head coach.

The problem with our debate on dalton is that I don't know what you mean by "average".  So I nee some specifics.

Maybe just list the QBs you claim are better than Dalton.

Something.

Anything but running in circles talking about "average" without defining "average".

[CornerBlitz]

(05-16-2018, 08:03 AM)fredtoast Wrote: List the QBs who could win with Marvin as head coach.

What makes you believe that Marvin Lewis and Andy Dalton can make a run at the Lombardi? 

Marvin has had what 17 chances and we haven't even won a playoff game.

Dalton has had what, 8 seasons now.....zero playoff wins.

For me to even debate this with you is absurd.  As far as picking QBs that could win with Marvin, there are probably only 5 or 6 and even then I'm not 100% sure considering the level of coach he is.  

[fredtoast]

(05-17-2018, 07:49 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: What makes you believe that Marvin Lewis and Andy Dalton can make a run at the Lombardi? 

Marvin has had what 17 chances and we haven't even won a playoff game.

Dalton has had what, 8 seasons now.....zero playoff wins.

For me to even debate this with you is absurd.  As far as picking QBs that could win with Marvin, there are probably only 5 or 6 and even then I'm not 100% sure considering the level of coach he is.  

So all of this time you have spent squealing about how Dalton is just "average" you meant he was not oin the top 5 or 6 in the league?

I can agree with that,

[*PhilHos*]

(05-17-2018, 07:49 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: For me to even debate this with you is absurd.  As far as picking QBs that could win with Marvin, there are probably only 5 or 6 and even then I'm not 100% sure considering the level of coach he is.  

If you're not even sure that Merv could win with the top 5 or 6 QBs in the league, why are you so sure that Dalton couldn't win a playoff game with a different coach?

[Shake n Blake]

(05-17-2018, 08:19 AM)fredtoast Wrote: So all of this time you have spent squealing about how Dalton is just "average" you meant he was not oin the top 5 or 6 in the league?

I can agree with that,

I agree with it as well.

(05-17-2018, 12:30 PM)PhilHos Wrote: If you're not even sure that Merv could win with the top 5 or 6 QBs in the league, why are you so sure that Dalton couldn't win a playoff game with a different coach?

This. Right. Here. 

Until Merv is coaching elsewhere, I refuse to single any players out for their playoff performance. If we hire a new coach and Andy sucks in the playoffs per usual, it's time for him to go...but I'm not sure we'll ever get that chance. Until then, I look at the other 3 QB's we've seen (Kitna, Palmer, McCarron), see that they've all sucked as well, and realize that QB is not the problem. Coaching is.

So unless we get a top 5-6 QB like Aaron Rodgers, I just don't see any playoff wins coming. Even then I'm not sure.

I'd be more optimistic about McCarthy + Dalton than Marvin + Rodgers. 

[BenZoo2]

(05-17-2018, 08:19 AM)fredtoast Wrote: So all of this time you have spent squealing about how Dalton is just "average" you meant he was not oin the top 5 or 6 in the league?

I can agree with that,

You sure got a purdy mouth


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fredtoast]

(05-17-2018, 01:17 PM)BenZoo2 Wrote: You sure got a purdy mouth

Aintry?

This here river don't go no where near Aintry.

[CornerBlitz]

(05-17-2018, 08:19 AM)fredtoast Wrote: So all of this time you have spent squealing about how Dalton is just "average" you meant he was not oin the top 5 or 6 in the league?

I can agree with that,

You've ignored my question entirely.

Do you think the combo of Marvin and Dalton can make a run at the Lombardi?

If you do, then we are done with this discussion because you have gone beyond the boundaries of reasonable sense.

Next, I have no clue what you are talking about with your outrageous conclusions based upon my comment.  Just because Marvin is a mediocre coach who needs a great QB to probably take us to the promise land doesn't conclude that Andy Dalton is a top 10 QB.

[fredtoast]

(05-17-2018, 08:55 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: You've ignored my question entirely.

Do you think the combo of Marvin and Dalton can make a run at the Lombardi?

Yes

(05-17-2018, 08:55 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: Next, I have no clue what you are talking about with your outrageous conclusions based upon my comment.  Just because Marvin is a mediocre coach who needs a great QB to probably take us to the promise land doesn't conclude that Andy Dalton is a top 10 QB.

I can not come to any other conclusion.

i asked you twice to provide some sort of list of QBs so we could understand your definition of "average" and that is all you would say.

So who are the "good" QBs you rank ahead of Dalton.  Maybe we can quit arguing if we actually agree.

[*PhilHos*]

(05-17-2018, 08:55 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: Do you think the combo of Marvin and Dalton can make a run at the Lombardi?

If you do, then we are done with this discussion because you have gone beyond the boundaries of reasonable sense.

Why is it unreasonable or nonsensical to think a Merv and Dalton led Bengals team can make a run at the Lombardi? They were clearly good enough to make the playoffs 5 years in a row. Why is it unreasonable or nonsensical to think they could finally do well enough IN the playoffs to make it to a Super Bowl?

[CornerBlitz]

(05-18-2018, 11:45 AM)PhilHos Wrote: Why is it unreasonable or nonsensical to think a Merv and Dalton led Bengals team can make a run at the Lombardi? They were clearly good enough to make the playoffs 5 years in a row. Why is it unreasonable or nonsensical to think they could finally do well enough IN the playoffs to make it to a Super Bowl?

This combo has had 8 years and haven't even won a playoff game.  I think that is a reasonable amount of time to show what you can do....

If you disagree then so be it. 

[CornerBlitz]

(05-18-2018, 09:56 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes


I can not come to any other conclusion.

i asked you twice to provide some sort of list of QBs so we could understand your definition of "average" and that is all you would say.

So who are the "good" QBs you rank ahead of Dalton.  Maybe we can quit arguing if we actually agree.

Forget what me and you think. Let's see what all the experts think. I wasn't able to find one ranking from a credible site that had Dalton ranked in the top 12. Essentially all of them had him average to below average. 

Dalton ranked 20th

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/2017-nfl-quarterback-power-rankings-post-draft-edition-051417

Dalton ranked 23rd
https://thebiglead.com/2017/04/11/ranking-nfl-quarterbacks-1-32-for-the-2017-season/3/ 

Dalton Ranked 21st
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000920622/article/quarterback-rankings-top-32-signalcallers-across-nfl

ESPN Ranks Bengals at 18
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/23511406/2018-nfl-offseason-quarterback-confidence-index-rating-all-32-teams-depth-chart-draft

So perhaps my assumption that he is an average QB isn't as off as you imagine.......

[grampahol]

(05-18-2018, 09:30 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: Forget what me and you think. Let's see what all the experts think. I wasn't able to find one ranking from a credible site that had Dalton ranked in the top 12. Essentially all of them had him average to below average. 

Dalton ranked 20th

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/2017-nfl-quarterback-power-rankings-post-draft-edition-051417

Dalton ranked 23rd
https://thebiglead.com/2017/04/11/ranking-nfl-quarterbacks-1-32-for-the-2017-season/3/ 

Dalton Ranked 21st
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000920622/article/quarterback-rankings-top-32-signalcallers-across-nfl

ESPN Ranks Bengals at 18
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/23511406/2018-nfl-offseason-quarterback-confidence-index-rating-all-32-teams-depth-chart-draft

So perhaps my assumption that he is an average QB isn't as off as you imagine.......

Oh no! Not the dreaded EGGSPURTS! 
Just you wait n see when we win the world series under Mike, Marv n Andy you'll be pitching in for that 70 foot tall golden statue on Fountain Square.. Mark my words!

[*PhilHos*]

(05-18-2018, 09:16 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: This combo has had 8 years and haven't even won a playoff game.  I think that is a reasonable amount of time to show what you can do....

If you disagree then so be it. 

I get how people can think that Merv and/or Dalton won't ever win a playoff game. What I don't get is how you think it's completely unreasonable nonsense for anyone to think that they could. They've shown they can win the regular season. Seems their issues with the postseason are most likely mental. If they can figure out what those issues are, what's to then stop them from winning in the postseason. You do know that there have been many players and coaches who didn't win anything meaningful until the later in their careers.

I'm not saying you HAVE to think they could win. I'm saying is don't assume the people who do believe in unreasonable nonsense.

[fredtoast]

(05-18-2018, 09:30 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: Forget what me and you think. Let's see what all the experts think. I wasn't able to find one ranking from a credible site that had Dalton ranked in the top 12. Essentially all of them had him average to below average. 

Dalton ranked 20th

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/2017-nfl-quarterback-power-rankings-post-draft-edition-051417

Derek Carr is the #4 QB in the league and Jared Goff is #30?  

Marcus Mariota with 15 ints, 13 tds and a 79 passer rating is the 9th best QB in the league? 

Oh, man, you crack me up CB.

"Just look at the experts, Derp.  They prove I am right."

[*PhilHos*]

(05-18-2018, 09:30 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: Dalton ranked 23rd
https://thebiglead.com/2017/04/11/ranking-nfl-quarterbacks-1-32-for-the-2017-season/3/ 

Quote: "The worst good starting QB?


Though ranked 23rd, sure seems like the author still thinks Dalton is GOOD, though the worst of the GOOD ones.

(05-18-2018, 09:30 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: Dalton Ranked 21st
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000920622/article/quarterback-rankings-top-32-signalcallers-across-nfl

ESPN Ranks Bengals at 18
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/23511406/2018-nfl-offseason-quarterback-confidence-index-rating-all-32-teams-depth-chart-draft

So perhaps my assumption that he is an average QB isn't as off as you imagine.......

CornerBlitz Wrote:Dalton Ranked 21st

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000920622/article/quarterback-rankings-top-32-signalcallers-across-nfl

Ranks Jimmy Garropollo 12th. Totally discounts the rest of the list, IMO.

CornerBlitz Wrote:ESPN Ranks Bengals at 18
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/23511406/2018-nfl-offseason-quarterback-confidence-index-rating-all-32-teams-depth-chart-draft

Quote: " This is not merely a ranking of starting quarterbacks. This is a ranking of teams based on how confident those teams are in their quarterback situation as a whole. That means it includes the reliability of the backup situation, the injury history (recent and otherwise) of the starter, the long-term plan at the position ... lots of stuff other than just which starting QB is better.

CornerBlitz Wrote:So perhaps my assumption that he is an average QB isn't as off as you imagine.......

I personally don't care if you think he's an average QB (though you'll excuse some of us if we don't believe you think so considering you often post things that make one think you believe he is BELOW average). However, that is your opinion and you're entitled to it. As are the authors you linked to as is ours if we believe he's better than average.


My biggest gripes are when people post their opinion of Dalton as average or below average based on nothing but their opinion or the flimsiest of stats (like basing their opinion solely on postseason performance) and when people don't want to allow others to think Dalton is an above average QB.

[cooper]

(04-29-2018, 02:01 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: We have the least need for a QB in the entire division eh?

1. Steelers-Regardless of Ben's age, he is currently by far the best QB in the entire division. For all we know he could play another 3-4 years and perform at an elite level.  I can completely understand why they'd draft a QB as they did in this draft since their backup is questionable and at some point, Ben needs a replacement.

2. Browns-I'd bet many would argue that Tyrod Taylor and now Baker Mayfield is a much better duo than Andy Dalton and Barkely.  Most astute observers would take the Browns pair over ours. Mayfield has a world of potential and Taylor is a serviceable QB.

3. Ravens- Flacco is inconsistent and has mediocre regular season stats, but let's be real. He's a superowl MVP and nobody can take that away from him. I'd agree that over the last few years he has declined quite a bit, but I'd argue that Dalton has declined as well. Even if you want to argue that Flacco has declined more than Dalton the bottom line is now they have a guy with tremendous upside in Lamar Jackson. I'd take the pair of Flacco and Jackson any day of the week over Dalton and Barkely moving forward.

All three teams in our division now have at least 2 QBs that have value. We are the only one with one QB, and you could make the case that by seasons end we will have the worst starting QB in the division. Time will tell.

id bet that many that know football would not argue that taylor and Mayfield are better..silly   stick ben on this team..he would not have fared better than dalton..maybe worse..lol @ dalton declining....  without an offensive line..while not a great quarterback..dalton is solid

[CornerBlitz]

(05-19-2018, 09:59 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Derek Carr is the #4 QB in the league and Jared Goff is #30?  

."

That ranking list was before last year....those rankings at that time seem plausible. 

I've provided you with 5 lists (the first 5 i literally found in chronological order that had QB rankings). Why don't you show me some credible sites that agree with you......show me some rankings that have Dalton in the top 12...hekk the best one I found him was at 18 for cryin' out loud!

I'll be waiting. 

Whether you find any or not the bottom line is that I've proven my point. Almost everyone that I've found has Dalton ranked average to below average so for you to sit here and act like that is a ridiculous opinion just makes you sound stupid.

[Shake n Blake]

We all know what the consensus is among guys who are paid to write interesting articles "experts". Of course, we all know why that consensus exists: Dalton has been abysmal in the playoffs, they wrote Dalton off after that, and then group think takes over. Now writers would really be putting themselves on an island to make any positive claims about Dalton. Their credibility would be questioned.

I was listening to Tiki and Tierney the other day, and they compared Dak Preskott to every other starter. When they got to Dalton, Tierney paused. After a bit of silence, he went on to say that he didn't know for sure he'd take Dak over Dalton. Said Dalton gets a bad rap for the playoffs, but he doesn't think the reputation matched reality. He finally said he'd lean with Dak, but only due to the playoff performance.

1. Tierney is right. Perception of Dalton doesn't match reality.
2. That perception exists mostly due to the playoffs.

Then we come back to what I've been saying for years: How do you judge Dalton separately for choking, when Marvin's teams have been known for choking for 15 years? Isn't Marvin also coaching Dalton? Some just want to have their cake (blame Marv) and eat it too (blame Dalton). Logically, it makes little sense to put heavy blame on both Dalton and Marvin simultaneously.

If you think Marvin is the source of the choking in playoffs/prime-time, you should also believe this has had an effect on Dalton.

[Brownshoe]

(05-19-2018, 01:25 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: We all know what the consensus is among guys who are paid to write interesting articles "experts". Of course, we all know why that consensus exists: Dalton has been abysmal in the playoffs, they wrote Dalton off after that, and then group think takes over. Now writers would really be putting themselves on an island to make any positive claims about Dalton. Their credibility would be questioned.

I was listening to Tiki and Tierney the other day, and they compared Dak Preskott to every other starter. When they got to Dalton, Tierney paused. After a bit of silence, he went on to say that he didn't know for sure he'd take Dak over Dalton. Said Dalton gets a bad rap for the playoffs, but he doesn't think the reputation matched reality. He finally said he'd lean with Dak, but only due to the playoff performance.

1. Tierney is right. Perception of Dalton doesn't match reality.
2. That perception exists mostly due to the playoffs.

Then we come back to what I've been saying for years: How do you judge Dalton separately for choking, when Marvin's teams have been known for choking for 15 years? Isn't Marvin also coaching Dalton? Some just want to have their cake (blame Marv) and eat it too (blame Dalton). Logically, it makes little sense to put heavy blame on both Dalton and Marvin simultaneously.

If you think Marvin is the source of the choking in playoffs/prime-time, you should also believe this has had an effect on Dalton.

Wouldn't you think the people who act like Marvin is a horrible coach think Dalton is pretty damn good considering that Dalton took Marv to the playoffs 5 out of the 7 times he went?