The QB position

[Shake n Blake]

(05-25-2018, 05:51 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: Don't any if you find it a even a little strange that nobody else agrees with you outside of Bengal Land?  Do you really think everyone is just a Dalton hater? I've heard the "groupthink" theory and I suppose that holds some merit but almost everyone i talk to in real life and every expert has Dalton pegged where i have him.

Their is pretty solid consensus on the type of QB he is except for some fans of his.

Well I know you guys think I'm just a fanboy, but I don't like Dalton because I think he's a good dude or I like his faux hawk. I like him because I think he's been a net positive for the football team I care about. Why don't most (not all) members of national sports media like him? 

I think it's pretty simple. 

1. When AJ Green was drafted, he was viewed as the gem of that draft class for us, while Dalton was (IIRC) the 5th QB off the board, going with the 35th pick. He wasn't seen as a "sexy" prospect. Meh arm. Meh size. Meh athletic ability. Red hair. So when he started to have success, it was instantly attributed to having AJ Green. Was there some truth to that? Of course having Green helped him. Was it fair to give all the credit to AJ? I don't think so, but that's how things went.

2. Sports media always falls in love with newer guys. Winston and Mariota have been rated above Dalton. Are they really better? How? What about Dak and Carr? Meh. They all kinda come to earth.

3. The playoff losses and performance. When Dalton started dropping duds in the playoffs, all the people who thought he was an average-at-best prospect thought they'd found the smoking gun. There's the proof that he's just an average QB elevated by his teammates. The problem with this is that choking has been an issue for the Bengals as long as Merv has been the HC. Our other 3 QB's have a combined 59.6 rating in the playoffs with an 0-3 record. 

There hasn't been any difference, CB. So until I see Dalton skunk it up for a different HC, all the evidence leads me to believe the problem lies elsewhere. 

Back to the "experts" though. The guys whose opinion is no better than yours or mine, they just went to school for journalism and have a gift for writing or talking. There really is group think there. Narratives are set, and once they're set, not many are going to go against the narrative, lest they be labeled a "hot take" artist. 

The only way to change these narratives is to win. Usually a championship. Romo never overcame his narrative. Flacco did temporarily, and that really shut the media up for awhile. If I'm being 100% with you, I don't think Dalton will ever get rid of the narrative, because I don't think he or Marv are going anywhere. Dalton's entire career will likely be wasted in Cincy, and we'll never know if he was truly a choker, or just another symptom of Marv's inability to get his guys up for big games. 

It's truly frustrating.

[CornerBlitz]

(05-25-2018, 07:46 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Well I know you guys think I'm just a fanboy, but I don't like Dalton because I think he's a good dude or I like his faux hawk. I like him because I think he's been a net positive for the football team I care about. Why don't most (not all) members of national sports media like him? 

I think it's pretty simple. 

1. When AJ Green was drafted, he was viewed as the gem of that draft class for us, while Dalton was (IIRC) the 5th QB off the board, going with the 35th pick. He wasn't seen as a "sexy" prospect. Meh arm. Meh size. Meh athletic ability. Red hair. So when he started to have success, it was instantly attributed to having AJ Green. Was there some truth to that? Of course having Green helped him. Was it fair to give all the credit to AJ? I don't think so, but that's how things went.

2. Sports media always falls in love with newer guys. Winston and Mariota have been rated above Dalton. Are they really better? How? What about Dak and Carr? Meh. They all kinda come to earth.

3. The playoff losses and performance. When Dalton started dropping duds in the playoffs, all the people who thought he was an average-at-best prospect thought they'd found the smoking gun. There's the proof that he's just an average QB elevated by his teammates. The problem with this is that choking has been an issue for the Bengals as long as Merv has been the HC. Our other 3 QB's have a combined 59.6 rating in the playoffs with an 0-3 record. 

There hasn't been any difference, CB. So until I see Dalton skunk it up for a different HC, all the evidence leads me to believe the problem lies elsewhere. 

Back to the "experts" though. The guys whose opinion is no better than yours or mine, they just went to school for journalism and have a gift for writing or talking. There really is group think there. Narratives are set, and once they're set, not many are going to go against the narrative, lest they be labeled a "hot take" artist. 

The only way to change these narratives is to win. Usually a championship. Romo never overcame his narrative. Flacco did temporarily, and that really shut the media up for awhile. If I'm being 100% with you, I don't think Dalton will ever get rid of the narrative, because I don't think he or Marv are going anywhere. Dalton's entire career will likely be wasted in Cincy, and we'll never know if he was truly a choker, or just another symptom of Marv's inability to get his guys up for big games. 

It's truly frustrating.

I appreciate the thorough response.

1. Let's get a few things straight about AJ Green.  He will probably go down as the Bengals best WR in history.  I know that some like to hate on a few dropped passes or some other random tidbit but the fact remains that he's been a top 5 WR for the majority of his career. That obviously helps the QB whether it is Dalton or someone else tremendously.  I don't think anyone gives him the entire credit for Dalton's success but you cannot deny how greatly it has helped him.

2. I agree that sports shows/experts like the new kid on the block but they also like the old guys if they are good.  Do you think the experts aren't in love with the likes of Rodgers, Brady, or Brees because they are old?  No, in fact they are recognized even more because they are able to play at an elite level even in the later part of their careers.  It is the mediocre guys that the experts tend to forget about.

3. You can continue to give Andy Dalton a free pass on his abysmal playoff games but I don't. Nobody gets a free pass. The team in general has stunk it up. We all know that the two most important factors typically for playoff success is the head coach and the performance of the QB. I know you will forever continue to harp on the 3 games before Dalton and because of it this gives you the go ahead to deflect 100% blame off Dalton.  Keep i mind he's in the huddle, he's making the decisions, he's throwing the ball. If he stinks it up I don't give him a free pass. For the record I also didn't give Carson Palmer a free pass when he stunk it up. He also shares the blame.

I just think no matter what Dalton does the fans of his always find an excuse.  For playoff losses it is Marvin's fault. For 2017 it is the o line's fault. For 2016 it was the injuries.  At a certain point if you are a good QB you have to figure out a way to get it done and so far he hasn't.

[Luvnit2]

(05-26-2018, 03:13 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: I appreciate the thorough response.

1. Let's get a few things straight about AJ Green.  He will probably go down as the Bengals best WR in history.  I know that some like to hate on a few dropped passes or some other random tidbit but the fact remains that he's been a top 5 WR for the majority of his career. That obviously helps the QB whether it is Dalton or someone else tremendously.  I don't think anyone gives him the entire credit for Dalton's success but you cannot deny how greatly it has helped him.  

2. I agree that sports shows/experts like the new kid on the block but they also like the old guys if they are good.  Do you think the experts aren't in love with the likes of Rodgers, Brady, or Brees because they are old?  No, in fact they are recognized even more because they are able to play at an elite level even in the later part of their careers.  It is the mediocre guys that the experts tend to forget about.

3. You can continue to give Andy Dalton a free pass on his abysmal playoff games but I don't. Nobody gets a free pass. The team in general has stunk it up. We all know that the two most important factors typically for playoff success is the head coach and the performance of the QB. I know you will forever continue to harp on the 3 games before Dalton and because of it this gives you the go ahead to deflect 100% blame off Dalton.  Keep i mind he's in the huddle, he's making the decisions, he's throwing the ball. If he stinks it up I don't give him a free pass. For the record I also didn't give Carson Palmer a free pass when he stunk it up. He also shares the blame.

I just think no matter what Dalton does the fans of his always find an excuse.  For playoff losses it is Marvin's fault. For 2017 it is the o line's fault. For 2016 it was the injuries.  At a certain point if you are a good QB you have to figure out a way to get it done and so far he hasn't.

And yet another opinion from you loaded with opinions and short on facts.

How can anyone agree with you when all you cite is opinions, your and talking heads who we know majority only market the fan bases with the biggest audience? I was listening to NFL network and they admitted it, they speak of the Steelers and the Cowboys the most and hype them for ratings. They are not experts they are talking  heads trying to drum up revenue for those who pay them.

[*Nately120*]

(05-26-2018, 10:21 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: And yet another opinion from you loaded with opinions and short on facts.

How can anyone agree with you when all you cite is opinions, your and talking heads who we know majority only market the fan bases with the biggest audience? I was listening to NFL network and they admitted it, they speak of the Steelers and the Cowboys the most and hype them for ratings. They are not experts they are talking  heads trying to drum up revenue for those who pay them.

Interesting that you reply to his post about fans making excuses with a different set of excuses. 2 years out of the last 30 we've looked poised to actually compete for a title and both times the "over-hyped for ratings only" Steelers came into our house and ended our season.

[Luvnit2]

(05-26-2018, 01:34 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Interesting that you reply to his post about fans making excuses with a different set of excuses.  2 years out of the last 30 we've looked poised to actually compete for a title and both times the "over-hyped for ratings only" Steelers came into our house and ended our season.

I suggest you go back and read my post again. I did not say I agreed or disagreed with his perception AD is below average as he has stated. I stated he loses any argument when all he does is rely on opinions and no facts. Offering an opinion of another's opinion is not a fact.

[*Nately120*]

(05-26-2018, 01:57 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I suggest you go back and read my post again. I did not say I agreed or disagreed with his perception AD is below average as he has stated. I stated he loses any argument when all he does is rely on opinions and no facts. Offering an opinion of another's opinion is not a fact.

Your reply stated that we know the talkings heads are paid to push big money teams rather than the Bengals, and therefore that minimizes Dalton's value.  That's what I got out of it.

[Luvnit2]

(05-26-2018, 02:00 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Your reply stated that we know the talkings heads are paid to push big money teams rather than the Bengals, and therefore that minimizes Dalton's value.  That's what I got out of it.

It minimizes every Bengals value, but thanks for playing.
A writer agrees.

"Start with a quarterback that averages nine wins a year and has led his team to the playoffs five times.  Add a top five receiver and a Le’Veon Bell-like force at running back. Take a defense that has arguably the best inside rusher in the game, two linebackers that have led the NFL in tackles and three first-round cornerbacks in the nickel package.

If that paragraph were labelled “Patriots,” or “Steelers,” or “Broncos,” my bet is Vegas would be higher on them. But, look, it’s the same reason they are ranked as one of the bottom five teams in some of these power polls. What have done for me lately? When you win 13 games in the last two years, what do you expect?"

Again, just offering advice to him on why some feel he never presents and argument, not if he has an argument, But you are a mind reader I guess???

[grampahol]

Let's take a look at the experts and ask them...

On second thought.....

[Shake n Blake]

(05-26-2018, 03:13 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: I appreciate the thorough response.

1. Let's get a few things straight about AJ Green.  He will probably go down as the Bengals best WR in history.  I know that some like to hate on a few dropped passes or some other random tidbit but the fact remains that he's been a top 5 WR for the majority of his career. That obviously helps the QB whether it is Dalton or someone else tremendously.  I don't think anyone gives him the entire credit for Dalton's success but you cannot deny how greatly it has helped him.  

2. I agree that sports shows/experts like the new kid on the block but they also like the old guys if they are good.  Do you think the experts aren't in love with the likes of Rodgers, Brady, or Brees because they are old?  No, in fact they are recognized even more because they are able to play at an elite level even in the later part of their careers.  It is the mediocre guys that the experts tend to forget about.

3. You can continue to give Andy Dalton a free pass on his abysmal playoff games but I don't. Nobody gets a free pass. The team in general has stunk it up. We all know that the two most important factors typically for playoff success is the head coach and the performance of the QB. I know you will forever continue to harp on the 3 games before Dalton and because of it this gives you the go ahead to deflect 100% blame off Dalton.  Keep i mind he's in the huddle, he's making the decisions, he's throwing the ball. If he stinks it up I don't give him a free pass. For the record I also didn't give Carson Palmer a free pass when he stunk it up. He also shares the blame.

I just think no matter what Dalton does the fans of his always find an excuse.  For playoff losses it is Marvin's fault. For 2017 it is the o line's fault. For 2016 it was the injuries.  At a certain point if you are a good QB you have to figure out a way to get it done and so far he hasn't.

1. I never said AJ Green hasn't been an asset. I said it was unfair to completely write off Dalton's success as a byproduct of having Green. To me, that argument went out the window when Green missed around 12 games in 3 years, and Dalton had a winning record and solid performance in those games. Also, as good as Green has been, the other receivers have been questionable at best for the most part, outside of 2013 and 2015.

2. The guys you mention have all won Super Bowls and are viewed as the top 3-4 passers in the game. Someone like Dalton - with the narratives I mentioned - is always going to get placed behind the hot new names. 

3. Not about a free pass buddy. It's about taking in the vast array of evidence and coming to a logical conclusion...as far as playoffs go.

With the regular season, I don't think Dalton has required many excuses. His only poor statistical seasons were his rookie year, 2014 and last year. Most considered his rookie season a success, so really it's just 2 years.

2014 (even if you ignore the injuries at receiver) was mostly a good year with some gutsy performances. The 2.0 game tanked his overall numbers, and that's what anti Dalton guys will focus on...but Dalton was more good than bad that year, even with the injuries. Now last year...I don't know how any rational person could call that an "excuse". The line was a disaster. If a good QB is always able to overcome an atrocious line, No team with a good QB would ever spend on linemen. Let that stew and think about it for a minute. 

[*Nately120*]

(05-26-2018, 04:07 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: It minimizes every Bengals value, but thanks for playing.
A writer agrees.

"Start with a quarterback that averages nine wins a year and has led his team to the playoffs five times.  Add a top five receiver and a Le’Veon Bell-like force at running back. Take a defense that has arguably the best inside rusher in the game, two linebackers that have led the NFL in tackles and three first-round cornerbacks in the nickel package.

If that paragraph were labelled “Patriots,” or “Steelers,” or “Broncos,” my bet is Vegas would be higher on them. But, look, it’s the same reason they are ranked as one of the bottom five teams in some of these power polls. What have done for me lately? When you win 13 games in the last two years, what do you expect?"

Again, just offering advice to him on why some feel he never presents and argument, not if he has ana argument, But you are a mind reader I guess???

I'm always sorry when I dare engage you in any sort of debate. 

[CornerBlitz]

(05-26-2018, 05:35 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. I never said AJ Green hasn't been an asset. I said it was unfair to completely write off Dalton's success as a byproduct of having Green. To me, that argument went out the window when Green missed around 12 games in 3 years, and Dalton had a winning record and solid performance in those games. Also, as good as Green has been, the other receivers have been questionable at best for the most part, outside of 2013 and 2015.

2. The guys you mention have all won Super Bowls and are viewed as the top 3-4 passers in the game. Someone like Dalton - with the narratives I mentioned - is always going to get placed behind the hot new names. 

3. Not about a free pass buddy. It's about taking in the vast array of evidence and coming to a logical conclusion...as far as playoffs go.

With the regular season, I don't think Dalton has required many excuses. His only poor statistical seasons were his rookie year, 2014 and last year. Most considered his rookie season a success, so really it's just 2 years.

2014 (even if you ignore the injuries at receiver) was mostly a good year with some gutsy performances. The 2.0 game tanked his overall numbers, and that's what anti Dalton guys will focus on...but Dalton was more good than bad that year, even with the injuries. Now last year...I don't know how any rational person could call that an "excuse". The line was a disaster. If a good QB is always able to overcome an atrocious line, No team with a good QB would ever spend on linemen. Let that stew and think about it for a minute. 

I guess we'll agree to disagree as usual regarding Dalton.  We've disagreed about this guy for the better part of his entire career.  I started to think i may have been wrong when he played like a G in 2015 but he hasn't been able to recapture the magic of that 12 game stretch so I feel like he's not that QB. Dalton to me is an average starting QB that hasn't proven he can get the job done.

I'll bow out of this discussion. 

[cooper]

(05-27-2018, 04:25 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: I guess we'll agree to disagree as usual regarding Dalton.  We've disagreed about this guy for the better part of his entire career.  I started to think i may have been wrong when he played like a G in 2015 but he hasn't been able to recapture the magic of that 12 game stretch so I feel like he's not that QB. Dalton to me is an average starting QB that hasn't proven he can get the job done.

I'll bow out of this discussion. 

stick brady behind this terrible offensive line..he would look worse

[Bengalitis]

(05-26-2018, 01:34 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Interesting that you reply to his post about fans making excuses with a different set of excuses.  2 years out of the last 30 we've looked poised to actually compete for a title and both times the "over-hyped for ratings only" Steelers came into our house and ended our season.

Not to mention the 49ers have negotiated into getting their next Montana QB... i wouldn't be surprised if we finally made the Super Bowl this season and the niners too, with Gialoppolo stealing the show and getting his first Super Bowl MVP and the beginning of his dynasty against a relatively veteran Bengals team.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(05-27-2018, 11:14 AM)cooper Wrote: stick brady behind this terrible offensive line..he would look worse

No he wouldn’t.

[TheUberHuber]

(05-27-2018, 12:23 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: No he wouldn’t.

Yes he would. 

[Shake n Blake]

(05-27-2018, 12:23 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: No he wouldn’t.

He probably wouldn't, but we're talking about the likely GOAT QB there. 

Just because GOAT QB could do it, doesn't mean Dalton sucks because he can't. 

99% of QB's are going to suffer a drop off in play when they're getting pummeled and the run game is the worst in the NFL.

That said, hasn't the word around the NFL been that in order to slow Brady, you hit hit him? I remember James Harrison saying that.

[Socal Bengals fan]

(05-27-2018, 11:14 AM)cooper Wrote: stick brady behind this terrible offensive line..he would look worse

no .  first off they would improve something about playing with the greatest quarterback would improve everyone's play .  fml

[Socal Bengals fan]

(05-27-2018, 01:37 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: He probably wouldn't, but we're talking about the likely GOAT QB there. 

Just because GOAT QB could do it, doesn't mean Dalton sucks because he can't. 

99% of QB's are going to suffer a drop off in play when they're getting pummeled and the run game is the worst in the NFL.

That said, hasn't the word around the NFL been that in order to slow Brady, you hit hit him? I remember James Harrison saying that.

agree with you 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(05-27-2018, 01:25 PM)TheUberHuber Wrote: Yes he would. 

This is an old and tired narrative on this board, and it’s ridiculous every time someone parrots it.

Brady’s line was not good at all last season, he was sacked 35 times ( only 4 less than Dalton), and he still took his team to the Super Bowl.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(05-27-2018, 01:37 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: He probably wouldn't, but we're talking about the likely GOAT QB there. 

Just because GOAT QB could do it, doesn't mean Dalton sucks because he can't.

99% of QB's are going to suffer a drop off in play when they're getting pummeled and the run game is the worst in the NFL.

That said, hasn't the word around the NFL been that in order to slow Brady, you hit hit him? I remember James Harrison saying that.

Never said he does. Just disagreeing with the ridiculous suggestion that Brady would be worse.